Loading...
11-08-1989 - Minutes TC , CITY OF ORANGE - MINUTES OF A R�EGULAR MEETING CITY TR�P�'IC O(3MLKISSI�1 Date of Meeting:- November 8, 1989 ROLL CALL: PRESENT - Comnissioners: D� Yaxger, J. Fortier, N. Hower B. Leming, F. Sciaxra Staff: B. Derin,is, Lt. Leintz, C. Glass D. Allenbaeh, P. Then ABSENT - Comnissionerss None Staff: R. Herrick � , MOTION 1. Approval of October 11, 1989 Minutes MOTION D. Yarger SBOOI�ID . J. Forti�r AYF� jJnani mrn�� C70NSF�NT �ALI�IDAR 1. Request to remove existing paxking restrietions at 601 N. Ba.ta.via St. and alow on-street parking. Donald F. Holthe 578 N. Ba.tavia St. Orange, CA 92668 Refer to written staff report. Discussion: Don Holthe - The reason why I requested �ha,t we allow on-street pa.rking at _ this location is because there is a parking problem along Ba.tavia St. and - the problem is about to get worse, beca,use a building at 600 N. Batavia is going to occupied real soon. The section that I asked to allow on-street parking is between the twa driveways at 601 N. Ba.tavia St. , not the whole section up to the railroa,d tracks. I think the reason why there was no parking to begin with, was beca.use of the railroad tracks and I think there is enough room that there ,could be pa.rking and still leave enough room so there wouldn't be any problems as far as railroa,d crossing is concerned. Chairman Yarger - I think the reason why the pa.rking restriction was put there to begin with was for a driveway vision zone, so the people exiting tha.t driveway would have vision so they could get in and out of it. Chuck Glass - There is some pa,rking restrictions in this pa.rticular area just south of the tracks where physica.11y it is not possible to permit on-street parking and allow a number two through lane. This occurs wherever the �urb lane width goes below 20 feet. South of that point, and basica,lly _ _ _ that's where the transition and the centerline stripe flares out to shadow out the island, south of that point where there is adequate room, it is our CITY OF ORANGE MINUTE� OF A REGULAR MEETING CITY TRAF'FIC �l1.S.SIC�I Oate of Meeting: No`v+ember 8. 1989 MOTION opinion, that the restriction covers the two driveways to 601 N• Ba.ta.via St. primarily for sight dista.nce cleaxance a.nd a driveway vision zone. If you`ve been in the area you know the street is heavily paxked, and I'm very reluctant to recom�nend a.ny removal of. paxking restrictions unless tha.t specific property owner makes that request, a.nd in effect, says he does not car about the driveway vision zon�s. Don Holthe - So at this point I need to conta.ct the owner and get his approval to remov� the vision zones and re-submit this? . Ghairma.n Yarger - I think tha.t would probably be best. At this time, unless the property owner came in a.nd told us that he doesn't need the � driveway vision zone we will � have to deny yaur request and have you re-submit it if he would approve this removal. R,�OpNID�ENDATION: DENY I�ION - D. Yarger � SBp01�.1 - J. Fortier AYES - UnAni mna�� 2. Request for the installation of dri�eway vision zones at 1042 & I064 N. Cambridge St. Leonard Newport . Mike Herna.ndez 1064 N. Cambridge St. 1042 N. Cambridge St. Ora.nge, CA 92666 Ora.nge, CA 92666 . Ref er to written staf f report. - Tb.ere was no discussion on this item. � REOOMMFNI�AT ION: APPI�OVE MO�ION - D. Yarger S�OpND - F. Sciarra - AYES - Un�.n���� . . 3, Request for the installation of an intersection vision zone at the southeast corner'of Almond Ave. and Center St. Orange Police Depa.rtment Traffic Bureau City of Orange Refer ta written staff report. � There was no discussion on this item. R�OpMMENDAT I0N: APP'1�VE . MCnION - D. Yarger SHOpI�ID - F. Sciarra AYES - Una.aimous -2- CITY OF ORANGE y MINLT!'ES OF A REGULAR MEETING CITY TRAF`FIC ��1SSION Orate of Meeting: November 8, 19�89 MOTION 4. Request for the installation of a pa.inted crosswalk on Bedford St. at Bronson Ave. south of La.Veta. Ave. � � Nancy V. Scott 1643 Dressage Ora.nge, CA 92669 � , Refer to written staff report. There was no discussion on this item. � � REOOMMENDATION: APP�VE MOTION - D. Yarger S�OOND - F. Sciarra. � AYF,S► - IIn�,ni mrn�� � C�'1NSIDII3ATION ITF�S � 1. Rec�uest for the installation of 'Ho Stopping Anyti:me-TaW A�vay' restrictions on certain segments of Collins Ave. , Shaffer St. and Cambridge St. � Tra�fic Engineering Division Depa.rtment of Public Works City of �range . Refer to staff report presented by Chuck Glass. DIS�GIJSSION: � � Alonzo, 919 N. Shaffer St. - I, like the� rest of the neighbors, appose the signal on Collins far the following reasons: � This is an R-1 zone neighborhood a,nd you intend to make a left-turn lane Qr� Shaf f er tha.t would eliminate the on-street pa,rking. I've been talking ta a realtor and she says I ma.y lose up to $50,000 value on that property if this lef t-turn la,ne goes in on Shaf fer. Chairma.n Yarger - I just saw a film a few minutes ago, it showed this -- intersection at 4:30 PM, and I saw cars on Collins backed up a whole city block, ii not longer. I sat there wondering tha.t if I lived there, a.nd I � . wanted to get�out of my residence, how I could ever get out. That's what bothered me about the STOP signs we have tha.t now; and the noise factor af living on the corner, you would probably know more than alot of people that every time a ca.r stops and starts it makes more noise, whereas if a car is going through the area and do�s not make a stop/start, it`s les� noise and less pollution and that's wha.t I think they're trying to do with traffic signals is to get the vehicles flowing and to cut down the pollution at the same time, Ray Alonzo - But I thirsk you are creating a freeway through there, once those signals are on traffic is going to zoom right through there and its not �oin� to be any lighter than it is right now. _3_ CI'I'Y OF ORANGE � MINUTE� OF A REGULA.R MEETING CITY TRAFFIC QOP'Il�'IISSIaN Date of Meeting: November S, 1989 MOTION Bernie Dennis - You live on the corner as you sta.ted, if pa.rking were taken off Collins and left on Sha.ffer, would that reduce yaur paxking impa.ct? R,a,y Alonzo - Yes. . Ca.rol Krewson, 510 E. Collins - I live on the corner of Collins and Shaffer and the reason why I'm here today is because my home faces Collins and I will have a traffic signa.l in two bedrooms upstairs. I have also checked with a rea.ltor and ha.ve been told that the value of our home will definately go down having a signal right an our property• For safety if that's what we're looking for, I've seen intersections where they have little bumps or something as you're coming up to the STOP sign to indica.te there is a ST�P sign and I realize that� those that run the STOP may�not see it but ma.ybe tha.t would help it. You also brought up that the traffic is ba.cked up, it is backed up for a very short time. It's not backed up for a 3-4 hours a day, it is not backed up in the morning,: it is ba.cked up in the afternoon ! only and only for a good 45 minutes. I happen to occupy one of the bedrooms � tha.t is in the f ront, and when ca,rs run tha.t STOP sign at night tha.t is alot � more noise than it is if they STOP a:nd then staxt again. I can tell when a cax is going to run it beca.use they're not going 35 MPH and i feel that the traffic as fax as the speed limit, I feel that the speed limit will not be , adhered to as much as it is with a STOP sign, its going to make it like it is a business section and not a residential district. It will affect the value of our homes. Kenneth--Caxpenter, 874 N. Cambridge - A few years ago we were fighting over Cambridge being downgraded from a.n arterial highway, and basica,lly at that � time, the people along Cambridge were rea.11y concerned about the childreh. Our big problem again is the children. You say there's no survey on t e bicycles, how much survey ha.s been done on the foot traffic? A.gain, a signal at Cambridge and Collins is going to encour�.ge cars to go faster, a.nd _ STOP signs discourage it. We're impa.cted approximately a.n hour ea.ch day. I'm willing to live with that, I don't see why that's a real problem. I would like to see a more thorough study done of the children that come from Yorba Jr. High School and Ca.lifornia Elementary, a.nd the type of traffic that we have not only in the bicycle pa.th, but also along the sidewalks. At the time we�downgraded Cambridge we pushed this over to Tustin St. Jim Gillison, 495 E. Collins - Why was I not notified. of this meeting? I ' live at the corner of Sha.ffer/Collins I've been the�c�e about 30 years so I do know what the traffic pa.tterns axe a.nd what t he tra f fic pro b lems a x e. S i n e e the installation of the 4-way STOP the tra ffic problems haue been reduced greatly. You talk about putting a sig,na.l in a.nd this improving the traffic . pattern, my opinion is tha.t people are going to be driving Collins a.nd as the last gentleman said its not going to slow traffic down its going to -4- ! CITY O� ORANGE .. MI[JLITES �F' A REGCILAR MEETING CITY TRAEFIC �'!"I1S`SICXii O�ate of Meet i ng: Nov+em��r 8. 1989 __ MC)TION the last gentleman sa.id its not going to slow traffic down its going to speed traffic up because they see tha,t they have a green light they're going to step on it so they can make tha.t green signa.l. Left-turn lanes axe not at other strategic intersections. I feel that .a left-turn signa.l in a.n R-1 zone is inappropriate, if you wish to control traffie in tha.t manner at tha,t intersection instead of having a left-turn signa.l qou should eliminate left-turns. This would eliminate the hold up . of traffic north and southbound Sha.ffer. For approxin�ately the last two weeks I have been ' observing the traffic at all hours of the day from eaxly morning to late in the afternoon I see no heavy traffic pa.ttern except for a very short period in the late afternoon when people are going home. I don't see it as a problem, if I see traffic build�,ng up there at a stop signal you're going to see 8 or l0 ca,rs build up, the most that I have ever seen at th� heaviest peak pa,ttern is 6 n�aybe 7 cars. I am very def ina.tely opposed to the program � as presented for the reasons that I mentioned i.n addition to the fact that definately it is going to devalue property.� � ,.: Commissioner :Leming (question of sta.ff) - The signa,lization has been approved, the requ.est here is no paxking isn't that the issue? � Bernie Dennis .- The funding for the insta.11ation of traffic signals at Collins and Shaffer a.nd Collins and Cambridge was included in the City's Ca.pital Improvement Budget in 1987/88 to be insta.11ed in 1988/89. Beca.use they �re in�luaed ana subsequently funded, a.nd incidenta.11y the Ca,pital Improvement Budget is an advertised document, there are literally $10 million dollars worth of projects included in this document, its not just this one particular loca.tion, and its approved after a series of public . hea.rings and very frankly after quite a bit of loca.l press coverage of what's included in it. But to a.nswer your question directly, the funding for the signa,ls axe included in the CIP's budget, the determina.tion as to if these signals will be insta.11ed and/or in wha:t configuration requires the _ approval of both the Tra�fic Commission a.nd the City Council before the - Public Works Dept. ca:n advertise or awaxd a contract. The basis of the discussion today is really two-fold; its to determine wha.t the impa.ct of the pa.rking removal would be on the residents in the axea, a.nd as one of the gentlemen said this is not the first ta.me we've discussed this issue and � what the impact of the paxking restrictions would be to the residents in the area encountered, very frankly, with �he benefits �ha.t would occur to traffic on the street. You represent, for examgle, 100 people. From our side of the coin we represent you and we also represent the 16,000 people a _ day tha.t use Collins, Shaffer and Cambridge; and surprisingly enough they all don't live in Corona, Norco or Garden Grove they live here too, just like you do, so the issue is if the Comrnission and the City Council approve or reeomrnend the prohibition of par�.ing to allow the left-turn lanes, then that changes somewha,t the possible design of the signals that would be installed at tha.t location. If, on the other hand, after all the factors are weighted, and we will make our own recommendation to both the Commission _ __ _ _5_ �. CITY OF ORANGE � MI[JiPI'E� OF A R�C�JLAR P'IEETING CITY TRAFFIC O��l15SIQ�1 �ete of Meeting: Ndv+ember 8. 1989 MOTION a.n.d the Council in this respect, if the signals without the left-turn pockets would literally crea.te more of a problem tha.n they would solve, and this is unfortunately often the case, then we will so report that, So we are reall� looking at two issues. We're looking at an issue of paxking removal and we're looking at an issue of traffic signa.ls. They're different but one relates to another particularly in respect to design. Jim Gillison - I am still adamantly opposed to the pa.rking removal, signal � . lights perha.ps I am wrong I am not an egpert all I've done is live there for the last 30 yea.rs a.nd ha.ve seen how things have changed and� it hasn't been tha.t bad. I do oppose the traffic signals on the basis of increased pollution, believe me when caxs- are sitting there idling they thr�ow out more pollution tha.n when they're moving through the intersection. Bernie Dennis - I think that you will fi.nd in tY�a,t respect tha.t emissions are more than halved when compaxing a tra.ffic signal insta.11ation to a STOP sign, more than half. The tons of polluta.n.t on an annua.l basis therefore at a signal is about 50� of what is encountered at a 4-way STOP for the si.mple reason tha.t the traffic is first of all only required to stop if there is a demand to do so, in the ca.se of Collins it would have a green light un.less there was a demand to stop occa.sioned. by s�omeone wa.nting to crooss the street in the opposite direction, whereas with the 4-way STOP for 24 hrs. a da.p 365 days a yeax with or without caxs; wi.th or without pedestria.ns you do stop. Derrick Grainger, 425 E. Collins - I do oppose the traffic signa.l, I have lived at this residence for a little over 22 years. I pa.ssed around. a . petition the last two nights a.nd I've got 31 signatures of the people on Collins and Sha.ffer opposing the light or more or less opposing the no paxking. I might ha.ve to speak for• my neighbors at 415 E. Collins the girls are all at school right now, there are 5 girls who live next daor and they do utilize on-street paxking because they don't haveAenough parking in their = pa.rking lot, there's always 3 or 4 cars out in �front of their house a.nd in front of my house. As fax as traffic safety, I think law enforcement should . ccxt�e into hand with that because �the speed limit should be 30 MPH not 35 MPH; alot of people axe doing 45 MPH. La.w enforcement I don't think is doing their ,pa.rt for the speeders. You're looking at a secondary highway, we ha.ve a gross weight limit on that street we always see big trucks and busses rurming up and down there without law enforcement. I think tha.t m�,ybe if you do put the light in what axe you going to open it up to laxge trucks? Are they going to be running up and down the street like they axe Ka.tella Ave.? (Submitted his. petition) Alvera DeVito, 930 N. Sha,ffer - I agree with everything tha.t my neighbors have said except for the fact that I think tha.t when you're thinking about doing things in our neighborhood you might wa.nt to consider us at the top of the list. I rea.lize that people come across town and use Collins as a -6- CYTY OF ORANGE � MINUTE� OF A R�GULAR P'IEETING CITY 1R1�FFIC Op��irI15SIC�1 O�te of Meeting: N�r g. 19�9 , , MOTION speedway, they also use Sha.ffer a.s a spe�dway and as my neighbor said if we had police pa.trol, we see them now a,nd again but not enough to control wha.t is happening on our streets. I ha.ve a very short driveway and there axe times when we need to use that paxking axea, in front of us a,nd if w+e ha,ve to give that up tha.t is going to be a problem for us. Down at the other end of Sha.ffer and Katella they don't have a left-turn lane there a.nd I would have , to ask myself why we ha.ve ta have one in a residential area where the business is area is allowed to just come a.nd go in either direction without giving up their on-street parking, so ,just consider us before you make your decision. Cormnissioner Fortier (Question of sta.ff) - Chuck is the left-ha.nd trun signal an essential paxt 'beca,use there's so ma.ny caxs that pou do have to ha.ve tha.t left-turn signal? . Chuck Glass - Left-turn pha,sing is not proposed, I think there has been some confusion as to left-turn pha,sing vs. provision of left-turn � : pockets. A1.ver; DeVito - How's that dif ferent from Sha.f fer and Ka,tella? T�o they have pockets there? Chairman Yarger - I�atella has left-turn pockets, Sha.ff�r �vouldn't require left-turn pocket beca,use most of the traffic corning this way is coining out of a condominium axea which is almost like a driveway axea. Bernie Dennis - Of the 110 or 112 signalized loca,tions tha.t we ha.ve in the . City of Orange, there axe indeed 8 or 10 loca.tions of a variety of land use types, not only residenitial but some in commercial a.nd industrial �,reas tha.t do not h�.ve left-turn channelization. Within the next 3 years as a matter Qf development, improvement or wha,t have you, if parking restrictions are necessary they will be implemented. And they will for two reasons: - 1) There's a major difference in accident characteristics of an intersection that has left-turn Yanes as opposed to those who don't; and, . 2) There's a rather signi�icant cha.nge in the degree of efficiency of how the street actua.11y works with or without left-turn lanes. If, for exampl.e, the intersection of Cambridge and Collins were signa.lized right now a.nd nothing else were done, what you would effectively do is cha.nge �ollins from a 4 lane facility to, throughout most of the time, particulaxly during the peak hours when the majority of the traffic occurs, to a one lane facility ' beca.use the first guy in line who wanted to make a left turn actua.11y uses that entire lane. _ _ _ _7_ CITY OF ORANGE MINUTE� OF A REGULAR MEETING ` CITY TR�FFIC C�OP'Il"1ISSION fl�ate of Meeting: Noveznber 8, 1989 MOTION In the case of the side streets, whether they. be Ca.mbridge or Sha.ffer the problem is even further compounded beca.use the first guy or the second guy tha,t wants to ma.ke the left turn uses the street. There's no alternate route for them to go. The way signals are .designed with the detection system we have it holds the green light, ; as long as you're on one of the little saw cuts on the street, it'll hold, the green light for you up to a point in time, evenuta.11y the motorist will make the left turn but the people behind him 2, 3 or 4 caxs whatever the case may be, will be trapped un.til the next cycle. That's really the reason why we look toward �hannelization. Chairman Yarge� - Bernie on this item we're ta.lking about remc�ving the paxking and putting in le�t turn pockets, if we went that fax is the signal definitly going in? Is that planned by the City that it will happen eventua.11y? _ � � Bernie Dennis - It would seem to me that at some point in time whether it be now or in the future, signa.ls will be installed at those two locations. We�re talking about a traffic volwne now on Collins of 1�,000 vehicles per day with a 2010 projection of over 25,000. 25,000 cars a day just will not function on a 4-way STOP, there's difficulty in it functioning now. I think that depending upon wha,t the actions of the Con�nission is toda.y it will, to a large degree, reflect the report tha.t we will give to the City Council in regaxd to recommending tha.t we proceed with the signa.ls or not proceed with them. _ Alvera DeVito - Please keep in mind that this is a residential area.. Commissioner Fortier - I drive that street alot a.nd I think tY�e�e axe da.ys when the congestion is langer than 40 minutes, maybe not rea.l bad congestion but caxs lined up, I've been there when there were .l5 cars lined up in both lanes. Wwhen you ha.ve a city that's growing a.nd� you ha.ve a.traffic problem - you have to look at safety and expediting traffic. You're probably right, ca.rs ma.y go a little faster if they see a red light that's why Lt. Leintz . ha.s his people out there. We rea.11y look at these, we look at volume, �e look at what ha.ppens a.nd we make decisions and unfortuna.tely, however, in my clear coriscience for wha,t's best for the whole I'd have to vote for approval of tha.t. � • Unknown S aker from the Floor - Are you trying to make Shaffer a through - street across town because you know it ends right down there on Ka.tella. I live at 1046 N. Shaffer and I've see a lot of ca.rs, that true, and there is alot of traffic in Orange. But are you trying to make Sha.ffer a through street? Chairma.n Yarger - What we're trying to do is ta get the traffic flow smoother on Collins. Beca.use unfortunately all of you read the pa.per and � -8- CITY OF ORANGE � MINUTE� OF A REGULAR MEETING . CITY TRAFFIC al7NYKISSION Oate of Meeting: Nov+�ber 8, 1989 MOTION Measure M was defeated, so appa.rently there's not going to be a.ny funds available for widening streets a.nd putting in more freeways a.nd moving traf f ic. I don't l�a.ow if any of you sa.w the statistics - since 1966 our freeways have only expa.nded by 8� a.nd I think �the population has grown by 165� so its inevitable tha.t we're going to have more traffic on the existing - streets we ha.ve, a.nd its our job to try to work with the congmanity and the � Council on making the streets run smoothly .and get the traffic going, or we're going to have nothing but parking lots all over the area. We've got to be able to make the traffic move, tha.t's what our streets are designed for and unfortunately; when some of you moved into that area. you have noticed. a tremendous increase of traffic over the yeaxs, its not going to regress it will progress. : Derrick Grainger - If you're concerned with i.mproving the traffie flow on Collins why would you wa.nt to take a.way the on-street parking on Shaffer if � you're not concerned with tha,t? Make Shaffer a through street, no left � turns. Bernie Dennis - Perhaps this would be an appropriate time to list the options the Commission may wish to consider, there axe several: . l l. No project - no paxking removal, no traffic signa.l, status quo - deferral. And I mean deferral in the purest sense of the word. Until this issue is �esolved it will continue to come back, perhaps next ta.me it �ill come back with the motorists. y ' � Z. Recommendation as proposed by the Traffic Engineering Div. which would be the signals and the no parking an Collins, a,nd the no parking on Sha.ffer and Cambridge. With the signals this would provide the most efficient form of signal operation and freedom af traffic flow, it would aiso be the safest of the installations. _ 3. No Parking prohibition on Collins only, which would allow the left-turn . channelization on the heavier� traveled streets involved between Shaffer a.nd Ca.mbridge. To make tha.t kind of an installation work it would probably be necessary to restrict left-turn north and southbound on 5haffer and Cambridge during at least the peak hours, and eonceivably longer periods of the day. What this ha.s a tendency to do and its been . used its not revolutina.�cy, but wha,t }aapp�ns when you impose turn restrictions is you end up with some very interesti�� reorienta.tion of - traf f ic within the neig�b���.c�'i a.� �aeople mca�ae th�au� � intersection or avoid it to get to an �.�jacen�C �tr+�:t w�i�re Ieft-turns are poss�.,l�le. 4. Signals without channelization. You would continue to ha.ve wha.t you have, I think from our perspective we would have to evalua.te that, I feel reasonably certain that were that ta become a reality there would indeed be turn restrictions imposed on Ca.mbridge and Shaffer as I indicated before, and probably full-time restrictions imposed on the - Collins traffic. _g_ CITY OF �RANGE MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEE'.�'ING " , CITY TRAFFIC �OOi�+�'JISSIC7N �aate of Meeting: M�TTON Derrick Gra.inger - I think the biggest opposition that all of us have is the elimi.na.tion of on-street parking. Chairman Yarger - I'd like to ta.ble this and bring it ba.ck for further discussion where we would maybe have a chance to dig into it a little bit deeper. Commissioner Le�ning - Although I don't have any objection to tabling this matter until later but since these people are here maybe we should discuss it a little bit, a.nd the options 3 a.nd 4, no left-turns a.nd tbe signalizati.on. I have a problem with that kind of signaliza,tion because I . think what it does would ca.use the traffic pa.tterns to go on to Baxkley or the otYier streets adjacent to it� to avoid the corner. If you ca.n't make a left turn and you want to go left pou're going to circwmvent it and I had � some problems with the other options too. But I do have some questions for sta.ff. I noticed that there was some tremendous dips at Shaffer and Collins � if you we�e to signalize it axe there pla.ns to improve- those dips? There's + not even � 'DIP' sign out there. My concern is if you ha.ve a light that is green a.nd a person travelling at night. Bernie Denri�s - As the Com�nission l�owns the City has acquired the property • on the narthwest corner of Cambridge and Callins, basically to insta.11 sidewalks. Its very unusual that you find twa corners adjacent to a junior high school that don't ha.ve sidewalks. In conjunction with the sidewalk i�nprovemen�s a.nd tha.t corner ' will be widened, tha.t plan al�o involves putting in. the wider cross-gutters, I think pou'l1 see a.n example of more comfortable cross-gutters at Taft and Cambridge, you have a little compaxison there you have the old style and �the new style. Cc�m�issioner Lemming - The other thing tha.t I just wa.nt to mention, I just spent the last 22 years at 2808 E, Collins and we went through a similax situa.tion where we signalized Wa.nda a.nd Collins this year. Between the - hours of 5-7 PM you could not get i.nto my driveway or nor could you get . out. Before the signal we had a STOP sign and since the signalization went in, a.nd we do have a left-turn pocket, it ha.s made it much ea.sier to get in and out of most of the property if not all of it; and tha.t's the 2800 block of E. Collins if you want to go over and look at it. It ha.s reduced the noise level. As far as the signaliza.tion goes, although it seems like its . an intrusian into the residential neighborhood it really benefited tha.t part of Collins if its done right. There is still a S'rOP sign at Handy a.nd Collins arrd those people are still having alot of problems, especially Handy. Bernie Dennis - We ha.ve a discontinuous street system in Orange, we ha.ve alat of streets tha.t don't go anywhere. Those tha.t do and Cambridge and Shaffer are two of those, seem to carry an inordinate amount of traffic probal�ly a disporportinate amount, we've been here long enough to know we ha.d a shift of traffic from Tustin to Cambridge and then from Cambridge to Shaffer, this all deals with efficiency or how ea.sy it is to use the street. _lp- CITY OF ORANGE � MINUTE� OF A REGLILAR MEETING � , CITY TRAF'ETIC ar"1"11SSIC�I �ate of Meeting: Nov+ember 8 1989 MOTION Since we've taken the parking off Tustin a.nd striped it for 6 la.n we t�e seemed to have at least stab�lized the Cambridge a.nd Sha.ffer traffic. experiencing similar problems with ea.st west streets. Collins, if you look at it, doesn't go a.nywhere, it comes out of a.n industrial area. on one end, oes through a very nice residential axea and ends in a gravel pit o�n�th�e g other side of the freeway, although in rea.lity it does go axound a.n a north-south street. Walnut is a discontinuous street the difference, of course between the two, is Collins was� at least built initially to ' accorr�nodate 4 lanes, Taft and Ka.tella are increa.sing dramatica.11y. Meats Ave., if you will go up and take a look at Meats will be very surprising; so its a few streets ac�ting great dea.ls of traff ic. The one thing we ca,n.'t handle is when this traf f ic gets into the loca.l stre�ts, gra.nted y�s folks on residentially developed streets but I'm talking now about stree like Adams and Ma.yfair where not only do you have residential developmenl but you have direct access. So our goa.l rea.11y is to make the arteria streets work as best we can. i - Do we have a.ny pea.k hour counts Corrnnissioner :Hower (Question for sta.ff) is on the bicycle trails? avallable and also a.ny ideal what the usage ��� Chuek Glass -.Yes, we took peak hour counts at both intersections, however, we have not ma.de bicycle counts �ust observations.-- (gives count in.�o.) Commissioner Lemin (Question of sta.ff) - What is the possibility of having king a:n.d some type of vision zanes on left turns on Collins and leaving par Cambridge and Shaffer, since most of the traffic is thru traffic and the ma,jority of lef t turns axe of f of Collins onto Sh.af fer or Cambridge. R�JU��ATION: That we accept the sta.f f's proposal to remove pa.rking f rom Collins Ave. MO�IpN: J. Fortier � - S�pNp: F. Sciarra � � AYES; Unani�m�s � � Bernie Dennis - Perhaps you should add to your recomrnendation the suggestion to ut this item on the 7 PM Agenda; and defer setting a firm date at this A time with the assurance that the residents will be notified of the i y Council meeting date. RBpp�ENDAT�ON: Request 7 PM agenda for public heaxing �before the City Counci� for this item. MCnION: B. L�eming S�ppND; J_ Fortier AYES: jJnanimr�u� � - . -11- CITY OF ORANGE MINUTES OF A R�GULAR MEETING _ CITY TRAFE�IC C�"i"11�IQJ O�ate af Meet i ng: November 8. 19�9 MOTION B. Request for the installation of 'No Parking Wednesday 7-11 AM' on both sides of the 3100 block of N. Beechwood St. south� of Rainier Ave. for street sweeping purposes. Ronald Seguine 3171 N. Beechwood St. Ora,nge, CA 92665 � Plea.se refer to staff report. � � There was no discussion on this item. ��OpMMENDATION: AP`Pfi�VE - _ MC�IpN; �Tce Fortier S�: Bill Lreming g AYES: jjnAninr�t�� C. Request for the insta.11ation of a 'STOP' sign on Milford St. at Locust Ave. � iKarvin Decker 2236 E. Locust Ave. Qrange, CA � R,efer to staf f report. � There was no discussion on this item. R�Op1VlIlvIENDATION: AP�PROVE a l�way STOP be installed for northbound Milford St. at Locust Ave. MOTION D. Yarger - - S�OOND F. Sciarra � . AYF� Ut]An;_rrc��� . - , D. Request for the installation of an 'Intersection Vision Zone' at �he northeast eorner of Acacia Ave. and Lime St. �a.thy Pa.yne 265 N. Lime St. . - Orange, CA 92668 � � Refer to staff repart presented by Chuck Glass. Gary Ba.rnes, 1041 Acacia Ave. - I live at the northeast corner of this intersection. If I ha.ve too many ca.rs blocking traffic I'm sorry, I don't believe there's a law as to how ma.ny vehicles you can own. Everything on -12- �� CITY OF ORANGE MINLTI'ES OF A REGULAR MEETING CITY TRAFFIC OOir�i1SSIQr1 aate of Meeting: Nov+e�nber 8. 1989 MOTION the street is licensed and legal. This intersection is so far out of wha.ck that it looks like a slalom course. I would iike to suggest tha.t red curbs on a residential street with an off-set intersection of this type would be better situated with a boulevard STOP. If you pa.int the curbs red that means vehicles will no longer be able to pa.rk there, that will leave the intersection wide open for anyone who wants to create a slalom course out of this inters���ior�. Aca.cia is not a through street it dead ends to the left� a.nd ther� is nowhere to go. We have children in three of these homes that cross the street I don't think red curbs will help the situation, Chairman Yarger - If we did put a STOP in there you'd ha�e to have vision zones and you'd ha.ve 30 ,f t. of red curbs a.nyway. Bernie Dennis - We ha.ve no objection to putting in S�OP signs on a loGal . street, in our opinion the people they tend to impact are the people who live in the neighborhood. However, when we put in the STOP's we're required by our poliey to put in the vision zones in adva.nce of the S�OP signs to ma,ke them appa.rent to oncoming traffic. In this case your suggestion may be -- well founded and I`m sure we will consider it, but the other side of the coin is tha.t we're talking .about alot more red curb which ma.y impa.ct you more. Mark Gillespie - 1108 E. Aca.cia� Ave. - I was going to propose a STOP sign but I wasn't aware tha,t it would affect my neighborhood. Whoever is . complaining is going to just move the problem down the street, they're going to pa.rk in front of my home a.nd it's just going to move on down the street. I'd like to see nothing ha.ppen here. It's just going to create hostility in � the neighborhood. Commissioner Fortier - (Question to staff) In your opinion is that a safety = ha.zard without the red curb? Chuck Glass - If we're referring to the west side of .the �street where we have the sub-sta.ndard radaii - if a laxge vehicle to pa.rk right up to the � curb return then I would say yes, you would have inadequate sight dista.nce at the corner of an intersection regardless of its geom�try. � Cynthia� Martinez, 1103 W. Acacia Ave. - I wa.nt a 4-way STOP. I have 4 children from 9 to 2 who play� outside all the time a.nd caxs are always zooming through there, they use it as a short-cut to get to Pa.lm to avoid the STOP sign on Palm/Ba.tavia. Because of the shape of the earner on 1103 & 1108 Aca.cia cars sometimes go over the curb to make that turn. Commissioner Fortier - Have you not:iced an unsafe condition with vehicles - parked in `those axeas tha.t are not ma.rked now? If those axeas were markecl red are you saying it would probably be a more safe place? -13- CITY OF ORANGE MINL)TES OF A R� MEE"�ING � CITY TR1�FE�'IC ��1SSIQ�I �ate of Meet i ng: No��v+ember 8. 1989 MOTION G�mthia Ma.rtinez - I don't think it would make a difference I don't see the red curbing solving the problem. � Commissioner Fortier - The problem is with people who have a pa.rking problem if you ha.ve a red curb it will compound the problem. Chairman Yarger - The way we have it set up right now how ma.ny parking spa.ces are we actua.11y losing? ' Chuck Glass - On the ea,st leg of Aca.cia we have l0 ft. restriction which would allow 33 ft. which would accommodate 1 vehicle, possibly 2 if they we�e rea.l small. However, you would probably end up with an encroa.chment up next to that driveway on .the adjacent residence. 33 ft. would certa.inly accommodate a small R.V. or camper type vehicle. The 43 ft. oould � accomodate 2 vehicles, however, in the times we've been observing this axea I ha,ve noticed vehicles encroa.ching beyond.the curb return which in essence is within the intersection. At 1041� Lime St. you have 32 ft. t�a.t is hardly enough ro�n to accommodate 2 uehicles in my opinion, 1 parking spa.ce is left a.n.d frankly you should only have 1 there to begin with. The northwest corner a.nd the southwest corner if there were normal curb returns in those _ intersectibns .you could not park legally �wihin the areas proposed. for red curb now. I'd further point out tha.t there is a fire hydrant on the west leg of Aca.cia and you can`t paxk .there to begin with, it`s at least 6 ft. in from the east curb return. Commissioner Leming - Beca.use of the fire hydrant I noticed we've proposed red curbing on all corners except at 1040. Chuck Glass Tha.t`s correct, you ha.ve a standard 32 ft. radius there having observed no pa.rticular problems with vehicles pa.rked right up to or encroa.ching the intersection we felt at this time we didn't really need to put a red curb in there. We could put it in and I don't believe you would _ on the east side of Lime where you have 37 ft. now 10 ft. would leave you 27 ft. tha,t would still leave 1 vehicle, so you wouldn't miss anything there. � Commissioner Leming - If we're going to red curb beca.use of safety vision zone I would think you would do it at all curbs. _ Ka.thy Payne, 265 N. Lime - I ca.n't get in a.nd out because the corner has a major vision obstruction I ean`t see and so many times I have to stop beca.use I'm almost hitting the neighbors. kids but they can't see me either and it's nobody's fault beca.use of the corner. Nobody ha.s the right-of-way and then they just cross, it's real dangerous. I'm concerned about these kids. We need to get some way to be able to see. Felix Yabarra,� 279 N. Lime - I'm the third house from the corner. My grandkids live on the corner here and they play in the neighborhood like everybody else's. I would like to see a STOP sign put in. We're concerned with the safety of the community, especially the kids. -14- �r CITY OF' ORANGE MINUT� OF A REGULAR MEETING CITY TRAFFIC OL��1r11S'SIQ�I �te of Meet i ng: ��r g, lgg9 � MOTIQN eommissioner Leming - Regardless of the pa.rking for the moment Mr. Yabarra, do you ha,ve trouble when there's vehicles parked on the corner seeing safely? Do you feel you ca.n negotiate the intersection in a safe manner and your vision is not blocked? ' � Felix Yabarra - Yes as a grown up I normally drive through there very carefully beca.use I know of the children there. So far we've only had the one accident. � � Commissioner Hower - Do we have the traffic counts for this intersection available? � Chuek Glass - No we did not make any counts. The ti.mes we've been out there . either observing or doing our field measurements there were very few vehicles. 1 Com�nissioner Hower - It would be safe to sa.y the center section would not waxrant 4-way STOP control? Chuck Glass - I don't think it would even meet. 2 way waxrants. Normally we would go with 2-way warra.nts in a situtaian when you have a typica.l problem of a off-set intersection. . C�ommissioner Hower - For the benefit of the residents here could you enumerate some of the typica.l problems associated with a 4-way S�OP where it � isn t t warra.nted? � Chuck Glass - The non complia.nce is the .primary thing if ther.e's a device tha.t's been installed that does not make any sense to the motorists a.nd such - would be the ca.se with all-way STOP's here. Why should I ha.ve to stop here - when there's hardlg a.ny traffic in the neighborhood? What it tends to do is encourage the CA stop and generally it has a tenda.ncy to lead a motorist to do that at locations where ST�OP's are important. � Chairman Yarger - (To Mr. Gillespie) When you come home in the evening or go into your �residence what avenue do you normally use? Mr. Gillespie - I ususally go down Lime St and paxk or I will come down - Acacia heading west and make a ha.lf U-turn and paxk. Cynthia Martinez - No. I c�ome in off Palm so I would be coming south on Lime. I really don't use the intersection. R��I�IDATION: APPROVE request for vision zones at all four corners of the� intersection. Amend length of vision zone to sta.ff's discretion. -15- CITY OF ORANGE MINUTE� OF A R�GULAR MEE'I'ING CITY �RA�FIC OC�+115SIC�1 Oate of Meeting: No�v+ember 8. 198.9 MOTION �IUN - B. L�iIIg 3�OOrID - J. Fortier �YE'� - iTnAni tmn� E. Request for `Permit Parking Program` on both sides of the 500 block of N. Qrange St. � George Littau � . 513. N. Ora.nge St. Qrange, CA 92666 � Refer to sta.ff report presented by Dave Allenbach. George Littau, 513 N. Orange St. - I'm glad to see that you're recommending , approval of our request. � Commissioner Fortier - Is pa.rking a problem? Gec�rge Littau - Yes, mostly at the first 5 units from Walnut north to Rose is a groblem. It seems they're hitting us harder every week. It even gets so that they take pa.rt of the driveways, we ask them not to block the driveways but they tell us to stick it in your ear, they don't respect anybod.y a.nd they walk away. Bernie Dennis - If this is approved you will be issued various permits. The responsibility of mak.ing sure that those temporary passes are in your guests cars axe totally and solely yours. C`.,ommissioner Hower (Question for Lt. Leintz) - What kind of problems do you have with the enforcement? Lt. Leintz - The biggest problems axe from the people who live there mainly because they forgot to put it in, it fell off, its in the wrong place, it � . wauldn't fit on my bumper. Then they want to co��e- in and get it dismissed. Commissioner �Hower - How about the enforcement when the ca.rs are encroa,ching the drivewa.ys? Lt. Leintz - That is a violation now and if we're ma.de aware of it and if the vehicle is such that its far enough in the driveway a.rYd they can't get o�t thats and immediate problem. If a resident pa.rks i❑ front of his own driveway norma.11y we won't cite. If we get a complaint we will cite. � Commissianer Hower - Is this an every da.y problem or is it weekends? George Uittau - The 5 days of school. -16- � ) CITY OF ORANGE MINUI'E� OF A REGULAR MEETING CITY T'RAF'EIC �'i'�1S'SION Oete of Meeting: Nov�lier 8. 1989 MOTION Commissioner Hower - I've been out there a number of times looking at this problem both day and night a.nd there's always pa.rking available to the students on Walnut and the student lot over on Grand. I see no reason for them to be parking over here, if they are. A1so most of the vehicles I see repeatdly and they're both day and night which would indica.te to me that they're the residents cars. � (Question for staff) - 'There seem to be apa;rtments along the alley way at least on the west side, would they get permits too? , Bernie Dennis - If the vehicle is registered to the address yes they will get permits. If they are addressed to Ora.nge St. they would be issued permits. ' Commissioner Hower - If there is encroa.chment axound the driveways maybe we . � need some red curb around the driveways and then some enforcement. C�mmissioner Fortier - Maybe we ought to look at this axea over the next month and ascerta.in that this paxking concern is legitimate. We should determine if this pa.rking is coming from either the residents or students. Commissioner Sciarra - I'm in this area. alot also a,nd I see the same caxs all the time. . , George Littau - If you go out there Monday, Wednesday and Friday's you will see that it's all students. Commissioner Leming - The reason I would go along with the program is tha.t we've already got it in the area, this is one of the streets tha.t doesn't = and 87� of the residents who live there wa.nt it. I think we have some special' circumstances. Chapma.n College is going .through a.n eApansion period right now, they've got �lans for an additional paxking structure of some sort and ma.ybe we need more survey as to who is parking on Ora.nge St. RE�OC��ID.ATION: Have staf f perform an Origin/Destina.tion survey of the axea � and continue this item until February 1990 meeting. 1�7PIO�T - D. Yarger SDOOI�ID - J. Fortier AYES - IIn�.?mrn�� Note from Bernie: This issue inasmuch as its continued until its time � certain will not be renotified, so .the applicant should be aware tha.t the 2nd W�d. of February at 3:30 we will meet again. _1?_ CITY OF OR�NGE MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING CITY TR�'FIC �'i"lL�.SlCxil O�ate of Meet i ng: Nav+esnber 8, 19�9 MOTION F. Request for the installation of additional pa.rking spa.ces to serve Sha.ffer Paxk. Traffic Engineering Division City of Orange . � Refer to staff report as presented by Chuck Glass - We may be premature in going to Council at this time. Commissianer Fortier - Ma.ybe we ought to talk to the recrea.tion people, they may bave some ideas about.why something shouldn't be put somewhere. How do you feel about tha.t? - Bexnie Dennis - Your degree of urgency is this, and staff has no problem � with what you're suggesting in fact if the park were built today by a private developer we wouldn't approve it because there'� not enough paxking. But the fact of the matter is tha.t your action would seem appropriate but they have to com� to a resolution of what they want to do a.nd come up with a possible funding source and a program by no later tha.n Ma.rch 1, 1990. The CiP Budgets are due in the 3rd month. Chairman Yarger - How long will the Parks Dept. need this? . Benie Dennis - I don't know, I would concur with wha.t Commissioner Fortier said and wha.t Mr. Glass suggested. You might wa.nt to consider amending your ' motion somewhat to where you direct it to both Parks & Recreation Commission and the City Council. Commissioner Leming - Is there any cha,nce to do a.ny striping out there until they do something, this is a major problem. I did talk to Paxks & - Recreation, alot of people claim we axe writing alot of,p�a.rking tickets out there right now. . Bernie Dennis - Do you think Bill the real problem was the loss on Orange-Olive or the loss in the comcr�ercial center, or maybe both? Commissioner Leming - When Roy sold the commercial center we lost tha,t parking but private pa.rking shouldn't provide the City with pa.rking. Bernie Dennis - Chuck is going to take a look at restoring some pa.rking ba.ck an 4ra.nge-0live Rd. We've got mixed emotions about this, we recognize tha.t there is a parking hardship, given .that we have some serious reservations about parallel pa.rking on a 50 MPH street a.nd if you watch that thing in operation with the kids coming and going around the parl�ed ca.rs if there's any way to do it I would much rather ha.ve it almost anywhere other than on Orange-0live Rd. I think we should fence it in. -18- 'T CITY OF OR�NGE MINiI'TE� OF A R�EGULAR MEETING CTTY TRAF'FIC OC�'i�11SSIQJ oate of Meet i ng: IiTov+ember g, lg$9 MOTION � C'rommissioner Le�n�.�� - Its just tha.t they need some additional pa.rking. You ca.n't continue to sc�i�d�.le events there a.nd wri�e tickets on the people. Ccxnmissioner Hower - My observation on Grove is tha.t there's considerable pa.rking au� there even when no one's in the park. I've been there when there's absolutely no one in the pa.rk but a number of caxs pa.rked on Grove and some o� th� appear tara be all day pa,rking. Is this coming fr.om the apartments �hat �.ave lost t���� Orange-Olive Rd�: pa.rking? � Bernie Dennis - I don't think so, I think you've got a couple of things going. First you have a terrific demand at the park during evening a.nd weekend hours I also think that� wha.t's happening is that people in the commercial center are askin� their employees to paxk out on the street, a.n.d the third condition is it is used as a paxk a,nd ride. � Commissioner Hower - If we expand the pa.rking in there are we providing more parking for the pa.rk and ride? � Bernie Deru�.is - You`d ha.ve to 'time limit' i� to make it work. Chuck Glass - That shopping center on the north side recently did get approval to construct an expansion to the center relative to square foota.ge, and along with tha,t they got a 5� or 6°b reduction in their required paxking. RFjOC��dMEhIDATION: Table this issue for now a.nd refer this item to the Paxks & Reereation Commission and the City Council for their input and take action after we ha.ve received their � recommendations. �ION - J. Fortier - S�'JOND - B. Leming - AYFS - Un�,n�rm»� . G. ORAL PI�ESF.NTATIONS - None H. Ad,jaurn�ent 6:30 P.M. -19- f�r .� \