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02-14-1990 - Minutes TC � .,,l CITY OF ORANGE �- MINUTES OF A R,EGULAR MEETING CITY TRAFFIC C�ISSION Date of Meeting: February 14, 1990 F�LL CALL: PRESENT - Commissioners: D. Yarger, J. Fortier, N. Hower B. Leming, F. Sciarra Staff: B. Dennis, Lt. Leintz, B. Herrick C. Glass, D. Allenbach, P. Then I. App�oval of January 10, 1990 Minutes R�OM�ENDgTION: APP�OVFID as published by the Reoording Secretary. ft�QTION - D. Yarger . SmOND - F. Sciarra AYES - Unanimous - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - II. CJOI�TSENT GAI�NDAR - February 14, 1990 l. Request for the installation of a driveway vision zone at 341 E. I,incoln Ave. I1�s. Orlo Hobbs 3�41 E. Lincoln Ave. ��ange, CA 92665 Refer to written staff report - there was no discussion on this item. R�M�IDATION: APP�OVE �E7TION - D. Yarger SEC)OND - J. Fortier A�S - Unanimous 2. Request for the installation of red curb at 1230 W. Alvaxez Ave. Heard s�parately. Lolward Shin 1230 W. Alvarez Ave. 4range, CA 92668 Refer to written staf f report. � � s ��� . 2/14/90 �GTG Minutes Cont.'d. Disc�:ssion: - ComQn�.�sioner Leming - I had concerns because the request wa.s based �n parking a.nd some trash problems in fr�ont of his business, a.nd I don't know if r�d curb is an appropriate use to solve that problem. The other concern I Y�.d was you're forcing his customers to park in adjacent property in fror�t of other businesses. The other concern I had wa.s whether the progerty owner was notified that we wer�e going to red curb a.nd what his opinaon wa.s� a.nd the fact is not knowing what this lea.se term is and if he relc��ates his business in 6 months won't we be here again asking for rem���l af the red cuz°b because the new tenant or p�r�operty owner requests it f� be removed? In driving out there a.nd looking at the property it just stands out to be so unusual that the Whole street allows parking and then . you �a.ve red curb in front of one business, there is a fire hydrant a.nd staff may want to address that problem on the red curb as to whether or not it �o�Id be identical to what's out there today. I ha.ve some concern as to setting a precedent where another neighbor across the street might come back and want one f or himself - I don't wa.nt anyone to paxk in f ront of my plac� a.�d whether or not the busines owner could- say, "hey if you're just coming in to my office just disregard the red curb and come on in," so I hav� alot of cor�cerns in tbe request. Chairman Yarger - Is Mr. Shin here, who requested this, in the audience? - No. Cammissioner Fortier - I'd like to hear a response from Mr. Glass as to Com��,ssioner Leming's concerns, do you agree With his observations as far as t��.s request goes? Ch�c�: Glass - No I don't have any problem with those observations at all. Com�.issioner Hower - Does the p�operty owner have off-street parking for his �lients? Chuck Gla.ss - The site ba.s a total of 10 off-street parking spaces, the ti�nes we've been out there there has been empty spa.ces, I would assume since this is a fairly new industrial c�ompleA, that the code required pa.rk�ng was provided. . C,oII��ssioner Leming - Not knowing if those off-street parking spaces were ' for �lients or for employees, I don't know how ma.ny employees are located at this business but my feeling would be that I would like to make a motion . to a��ay the request of the red cub. . , ��t�F.H�ATI�: D�tY the request. MO'T`�Ol� - B. Leming . SEC�� - J. Fortier AY� - Unanimous Y l b -� ' 2�14/90 Minutes Cont'd. �hairman Yarger - If the gentleman took it up�n himself to pa.int the curb red if we deny this we're going to have to go out a.nd r�pa.int it, my . feeling is tha.t if we deny this we probably ought� to �.dd to the motion that �that gentleman also pa,y for the re-painting of the curb, since he did not hav� approval from the City to pa.int it to begin with. . Carr�nissioner Leming - Mr. Chairman I have no objections to that, unless the second does? -C',ommissioner Fortier - No, that sounds appropriate to me. C'ha.irman Yarger - So do you wa.nt to put that in the motion then? � CAmmissioner Leming - Yes. R�O�gTIUN: DII�Y the request for red curb. Instruct sta.f f tc� bill Mr. S�.i.n for the oost of removal of the illegal red ctu•b he installed. MOTION - B. Leming � � SEQ�ND - J. Fortier .� AYES - Unanimous . � I�I. CX�1'�IDF�ATICR�T ITF�[S A. Request for implementation of a 'Fermit Paxking Program' on both sides of the 500 block of N. Orange St. George Littau . 5I3 N. Orange St. Orange, CA 92666 ftefer to written staff report. Commissioner Hower - This report is as I suspected, noticing that the same cars were there. ' RF�C��]aAT"I�T: D�NY � MOTI4N - F. Sciarra SEOOND - J. Fortier AYES - Unanimous . 6 � 2/14�90 CTC Minutes - Cont'd B. Rev�ew o� traffic controls on Tustin St. between Ka.tella Ave. and Collins Ave. , and request for the insta.11ation of a 'Traffic Signal' at the inte�sectian of �ustin St. a.nd Adams Ave. Luc�ti.a 4rtega 1538 E. Aclams Ave. , Apt. C �ra.�.ge, CA 92667 Dis�ssia�: . H�tch Hutchison - It would additionally complicate our problem because it wau.�.d encourage additional people to make the turn over:onto Adams over to Lin�In a.nd up through our neighborhood. . Ka.t�le�en Massa - People ha.ve been killed at tha.t crosswa.lk, the last time was � wama.n at 6 AM. Nobody stops for a yellow light, the yellow light says go faster so I don't get the red light doesn't it? Instea.d, if you jus� gut a button there that made the light turn red then the people would stap. There have been many misses here, ,the yellow light just causes more pr��r�ems. To ha.ve a full signa.l at Adams/Adams a.nd Tustin/Tustin isn't going to do any good beca.use you're just going to block up traf f ic more, but it`s not necessary except just. when people are in the crosswalk. Is that a situa.tion.that is impossible? �iairman �'arg�r - I don't �ow of •a.ny type of a signalization in the city � like that. Kat�Teen Massa - E`verytime you cross the street at a main intersection you press the button and eventually the light sa.ys 'Walk' if you wait long enQ�g�i. . Cba�.rman Yarger - But the light also is on a timer which will release and let tr�affic go through where if this was controlled by pedestrians somebody cou�.d play with all day lang and keep a red light. , Ka.t�.leen Ma.ssa There aren't that many people crossing the street except at cer��in tunes in the work hours in the morning or the evening, it's not a pla.�e whe�e they`re going to play games with it. How many people a.�r�e you goii�g �o let be killed before something is done? Ch�.irman Yarger �- We observed a video of crossing activity during peak �raffic hours a.nd we anly sa.w 1 car 2 people cz^�oss at the crosswalk. Cc�iss�.aner Leming - Taking her consideration I'd like to know sta.ff's apir�ion on is there a possibility that when the light turns red on Katella instead of ha�ing a yellow fl�.shing light you would have also have a�light tha.� could be turned into the Ka.tella signal so that traffic would stop at . �� ' 2j14�90 CTC Minutes - Cont'd. Katella and also at the post office and allow walking across? My concern wauld be having a green light at Katella along Tustin St. and then have a - pedestrian co�e up a.nd push a button and ca.use the traffic to stop and then 5 minutes later another pedestria.n come up, etc. It would have to be tied in to something tha.t the pedestrian could push a button, wait an amount of time so that its tied into the lights alorrg T�stin that would allow traffic to f low too. � Chuck Glass - What's being suggested is totally not recom�nended because �of the liability aspect. If we were to have a.ny type of pedestria.n actuated rec"t light it would have to be full signaliza.tion. If you wanted to use a pedestria.n actua.ted PID signal then the requirement is that it has to be mid-block and it has to be at lea.st 150 ft. from a.n intersection, and we're dealing strictly with liabilities, you can't show one direction a red light or some other indica.tion and not have a.nything for a side street or tha.t type of thing. Legally or liablity wise we just couldn't install something like that. Commissioner Hower - I think we have a problem with the yellow, it's strictly just a waxning a.nd I don't believe a:good ma.ny of the drivers und�rstand the meaning of it. Wha.t would be the possibility of having it black until somebody pushed t�ie buttons a.nd then you get your waxning? Chuek glass - We considered that type of an approa.ch s.nd we're extremely cvncerned that pedestrians would almost ta.ke the opinion tha.t when they pu�h that button and it started flashing that they would have the right-of-way and we feel tha.t it would ca.use more problems tban it would help. C�cxnmissioner Fortier - I don't see what else we could do about that paxticulax problem and it's got big wide yellow marks and big fla.shing yellow lights, it's very noticea.ble you'd have ta be very negligent to not natice or be alert to people crossing, and since we ca.n't legally put a PID �:ctu.ated signal in I don't see another a.lternative. Chuck Glass - We did look into the specific accident reports where � p�ec�estrians or bicyclists have been involved and frequently we find tha.t there is just as much carelessness on that other party either the bicyclist ar the pedestrian where there is alot of crossings going on out there .and if one is reasonably ca.utious I t�ink they ca.n be done fairly sa.fely, but when we read reports where sc�n�eone is riding their bicycle across the � crasswalk a.nd were in fact riding northbound along the ea.st curb made a left turn into the crosswalk a:nd simply started riding across the street wi�Ghaut looking one way or the other and then get�hit, frankly I think they � share some of th,at ,bla.me. Corr�n�.ssioner Sciarra - The vehicles are just not paying attention ta the yellow light, thep are just running right through it, it seems to me we sha�.zld get some enforcement there, if officers would put more empha.sis on the fact that people need to stop or at lea.st need to be ca.utious app��vaching those yellow lights. � . -�-- 2/14/90 �C Minutes - Cont'd. Chue� Glass - Relative to driver i.nattention we find in almost all cases wher� we take a.n intersection and signalize it we increase rear-end acciel'ents and nine out of 10 times the cause is either driving too fast or dri�ers ina.ttention, a.nd that's precisely what`s happening here eeen though it� not signalized what's causing the accident itself is perhaps the ped�strian crossing a.nd one person observing it and another person not. Co�i�sioner Hower - Do you know the history of why these warning lights wer� put in, was it at the request of the public? � i Chuc� Glass - I believe this was a program that was initiated by the city to �a�rovide this type of warning facility for most of the mid block or ma.jor cra�s.walks. Cor���ssioner Leming - I have two questions. We ria.ve a light now at Va.n�C�en/Tustin north of Ka.tella and I wauld like to know wha.t waxranted tha.� traffic signa.l versus the need at Adams. Also the fact that the cra9��walk is there, what kind of pedestrian traffic uses that? That seems to �e the major thing we're concerned with, I think it's a very da.ngerous� crc�sswalk because it gives you a feelin.g with that flashing light that you ha.v� sane seeurity. If you're in the 3rd lane a.nd someone stops in the lst lar�� wha �nows if the person in l�.ne 3 is going to stop or not, a.nd most 1 ik.e�lg they won't. , Ch�� �lass - I don't know under what warrants the signal at Va.nOaven/Tustin wa,� �nsta.l led. Cha�.a�mann Yarger - I think that signa.l has been in there for quite a few yea��. . Co�issioner Hower - It's been there for over 20 yeaxs. Cc��issioner Leming - My observation is that that signal seems to work very we�T, but again the residents in the area, se�m to be opposed to a.n.y signa.ls and so da staff�, so I couldn't support one, but again I feel uncomforta.ble wit� leaving it status quo. I don't know whether we should look at this a lit��le �:onger before we make a firm decision but there are some rea.l con�er�s. And there are 2 crosswalks tbere only a block apart and I think � we ��ould look at relocating one of those. � Cha��ma.n Yarger - Why dontt we take this item a.nd put it on hold and bring it b�ack in 30 days a.nd let sta.ff have a chance to review it some more and may�e come up with some idea.s and see what we ca.n do in 30 days. We coul.d , hav� them take a pedestrian count and see if tha.t's needed there. R�'��IDgTI�N: �at �e oantinue this it� for 30 days and let staff revie� it a little mQre and get som� pedestrian ovunts. MC�T°�Q�I - D. Yarger � SE�K - B. Leming AYES - Unanimous } ♦ ���� � 2/14/90 CTC Minutes - Cont'd. , C. Request for the insta.11ation of 'double striping, additiona.l raised pa.vement markers a.nd "SL�OW DANGEROUS O�RNF.�," signs and pa.vement markings' - at the intersection of Wilson Ave. a.nd Lincoln St. M. W. Hutchison 1174 N. Lincoln St. Orange, CA 92667 � Refer to written staff report. Discussion: - Hutch Hutchison - One alterna.tive that has not been mentioned is to use double striping and additional reflectors up to the corners and use a single line of reflectors axound the corner with the number of reflectors would be enough to attract their attention. We realize that you ca.n't stop the traffic going through the neighborhood because you will have other opinions because the traffic is getting so critical they are trying to avoid the Katella/Tustin intersection so they come through our area. and I opposed the signal for �,istin/Adams bec,�.use it woul.d attract more people to use ou.r streets a.s a short-cut past that signal too. I'm also concerned too from the standpoint tha.t we have 4 families with small children who play out into the street. We need to do something that will have some effect in slowing them down. I'm intrigued with the rumble strips and I'm not too concerned with the noise they generate. Corranissioner Fortier - I understand that �ou are opposed. to the installation of STOP signs, what makes you think that some yellow markings are going to be more effective than a STOP sign? In my opinion, striping a.nd other types of enforcements to restrict speed are going to be much less desirable or much less effective than a ST�OP sign. If you're thinking that double or trip�e yellow lines are going to slow traffic I think a STOP sign suggests that a motorist will have to �low down a.nd if I� go to a rolling STOP fine, but I will be going at a very slow speed. , Hutch Hutchison - I'm talking about reflectors, people aren't going to wa.nt to drive over them. Co�nrnissioner Fartier - Okay, but what is the yellow line gaing to.do? Commissioner Leming - Yes Hutch, but w�at they do is straddle them. Chairman Yarger - A few years a.go we put some rumble strips in over on LaVeta. west of Main St. by some apartments beca.use some people wa.nted rumble strips to slow traffic down. It wa.sn't 3t� days and they Were in here begging us to take them up, the noise was� un.beaxable it kept people awake, they c�ouldn't think, it just drove them crazy. Rumble strips would drive the people in your neighborhood crazy. _ , �- . 2/14/90 CTC Minutes - Cont'd. . C`hairman Fortier - The .problem with the rumble strip is tha.t people are � going at a high sp�ed when they hit them and they won't slow down because they see them, they don't slow down until after they have driven over them. Hutch Hutchison - I don't know what the perfect a.nswer is, but I object to the STOP sign� be�aa,u.se if they do stop we will ha.ve the noise of them slam�ning on their brakes and accelerating out of there, and to me the rumble strips would be more desirable than that would be. The second objection I have is as to how far as STOP signs is concerned is that it would rob pa.rking. I am concerned that we try to slow them down. Those pictures that I showed pou are from residential area.s im I�oa�hW�d �.nd � you enter the street they have these reflectors. Chairma.n Yarger - Earlier we viewe�d some video ta.pes that wer�e taken yesterday or the day before yesterda.p and they were parked in the - cul-de-sac shooting south, showing people making the left turn your are . talking about, they not only took the pictures with a video camera they also ha.d a radar gun. I don't think but a small portion of them were over 20 MPH when they came in a.nd nnade that turn, a1so� Counsel tells us that You � may ha.ve awakened a sleeping dog because that's a T intersection, the legal end. I'm going to pull this off and bring it ba:ck later after more legal review, beca.use legally to protect the City ma.y ba.ve to be ST}OP signs on all 3 corners beca.use that is a T intersection, not a curved intersection. , Comrnissioner Fortier - Chuck isn't that a problem with soII� of this, as I understand it, the pellow line a.nd the raised buttons beca,use its a T intersection? Chuck Glass - The yellow lines that's being suggested implies incorrect right-of-way. Gorrunissioner Fortier - So therefore it ca.nnot be considered, what you a.re suggesting is an incorrect., illegal type of markings. Hutch Hutchinson - No I'm not, I'm not saying double lines around the corner. I'm saying double lines up to the corner with reflectors a.nd a single line of reflectors a�ound the corner. Conunissioner Leming - This is a residential street and I think when pou sta.rt ta.lking double yellow lines you normally see that on secondary arterials and not residentia.l streets, and you're going to give the impression by painting double yellow lines along Wilson or Lincoln that its � no longer a residentia.�. street, that its some higher grade street. � � _� " 2�14/90 GZ'C Minutes - Cont'd. Commissioner Sciarra - The problem as I see it tha.t you're rea.11y co�plaining about are the people going north a.nd moaking the turn onto the other street a.nd those people are not making a 90 turn they re making a -- curve out of it. In my opinion, contrary to sta.ff's recommendation, a.nd lc�aking at the different plans presented here I would ba,ve to say that the one pla.n that would solve the whole problem w�ould be that one S'l�OP sign gaing north and I understand that it isn't norma.11y used. Conanissioner Fortier - I have a problem with putting in control mea,sures that are illegal because if an accident laa.ppens and people sue then you're looking at alot of City liability and you can't do things just because you think that's wha.t they should be, you have to do things that �.re deemed legal. Hu�ch Hutchison - The pictures that I showed you are from the Gity of Irvine and Tustin whe�e they a.�e using the double lines and reflectors, now is it legal there and illegal here? �issioner Leming - Are those curved streets or are those intersections? Hutc� Hutchison - They're curved streets where t�iey have .the double li.nes g�►ing around the corner. �� , Ccxfunissioner Leming - The traffic tha.t is going northbound is that through traffic comir�g off of Tustin or is that coming from Lincoln or is it coming fram Cambridge. Hut�h Hutchsion - It's caning up Lincoln, and it's coming off �ustin a.nd Ka.tella.. Bernie Dennis - Basica.11y what's happening in this area. is with the insta.11ation of the traffic signal at Ca.lifornia a.nd Katella, the Wi�.son/Ca.lifornia/Adams route bas bec.ome primarily e,n access point and I wQuld have to differ with Hutch in this respect, the motorists we do not feel are trying to avoid the Tustin/Katella intersection, but what they are daing is getting off at this loca,tion a.n.d then proceeding on south into the r�sidential area southerly of Adams Ave. a.nd we can pretty well substantiate that. Over the years we've done a number of things �.n this respective area. a.nd it would seem to me tha.t you ca.n do all the lines that . you want to do and rea.11y folks will continue to cut the corner and the onlg way you are going to alleviate tha.t is to initiate some type of pasi�ive control. I would suggest that the Co�ission consider Pla.n N, w3�ich is a 3-way S�OP. STbP cont�r�ol is not new in this neighborhood as might be demonstrated 700 ft. westerly of the intersection. I would suggest further that the Com�iission may wish to make this installation for a 6 month period a.nd get feed ba.ck. What I'm afraid of is one or two things is going to happen: s � -10- • �/�14/90 CTC Minutes - Cont'd. If �rou go with a straight delineation just a . centerline as Hutch has suggested, I don't feel he is going to get the results he is anticipating. If you go with extended raised pa.vement markers or even rumble strips I a�ould not be at all surprised. that i.n the near future we didn't have a - simi��.r group of folks asking for their removal. R.ight now we're running about 50/50 on rumble strips. In other words remove about half of what we gut in residential area.s because they are noisy. �zt it would seem that a 3-way S'POP whicb. would eliminate any liability to t�e City it's a standaxd insta.11ation, it c�an be tried, we've put pa.int dawn here before and taken it off several times up a.nd down the street, and I think the �esidents in the area would have time to review it. �el�n Hutchison - I am very much a.gainst S'POP signs, they don't do any good at Lincoln/Adams except the residents in the area; they don't do any good at Ca.lifor�nia/Wilson so what good are they going ta do on our corner? I don't know tbe answer, but it's nat STOP signs. Chairman Yarger - I disagree witb. you, I think alot of people stop for a ��OP si.gn. Lt. Leintz ha.ve we had a.ny people out there to police that situtaion regarding complaints of people not stopping in this area.? Lt. Leintz - We're there several times a week. We'r�e writing very few cita.tions. , Ma�k Campbell - Is the objective trying to keeping people from crossing into the other lane during that turn? C�n't they just put up a pole in the cen�er like I've seen in Long Beach where people will have to go a�ound it and yellow lines? Chairman Yarger - Putting up a post is really a liability, if somebody runs inta it a.nd sues it would be city liability beca.use that's not a norma.l way ta cantrol traffic. Hutch Hutchison - I can understand that you would be concerned about Iiability but I think that you're over sensitive in this respect from the standpoint that these other cities where I have gone into the residential areas and have observed the double striping a.nd multiple reflectors. Cc►�nmissioner Fortier - This picture shows�yelllow lines that only go up to the intersection they don't go around it or a.nything. SoII�eone is going nortl� and the lines stog, that's not goi.ng to solve you� problem. r -11- • 2/14/90 GTG Minutes - Cont'd. Hutch Hutchison - At least it is taking reflectors to that corner where they're not going to cross over, the way it is now we're going to have two _ of them that are going to meet beca.use they cut that corner rea.l short and if son�cone is coming from the other direction we could have a real collision. Chairman Yarger - That's what we have to look at because this is a T intersection you have to get people up there and negotiate a left ha.nd turn not a left hand curve. � Chairma.n Yarger - I think we ought to bring it bac.k in 30 days and let staff look at it a little bit mo�e a.nd let the legal counsel of tbe city advise us on it, because you brought it up and now we're going to have t�o do something about it. Commissioner Leming - I think wha.t we're dealing. with here is the symptom not the problem and that is the through traffic and if we wa.nted to look at a larger situtation of the whole neighborhood that's a very nice n�ighborhood and we're all sensitive to keeping it that way, unfartuna.tely you're right next to one of the busiest i.ntersections in the city a.nd t�at's Ka.tella and Tustin, if it's the desire of the Commission to postpone this for 30 days and look at it on a grea.ter sca.le as far as neighborhood preservation tha.t would be one thing, but the motion before us is the additian of raised pavement markers and from all the discussion that took g�ace today I ca.�a't support that, so I would be in favor of the sta.ff's recomm�ndation af denying that request, lea.ving it status quo unless Cc��ncil were to come ba.ck and sa:y now you have to do something about the intersection. My point of view is either address the issue we ha.ve now a.nd get on with it, or postpone it 30 da.ys a.nd look at a larger picture, but merely to wait 30 days and come ba.ck with the same recomrnendation would be a waste of the Cou�ission and sta.ff's time. 1�I�1 - DII�]Y the request for t�e issue befor+e us trodRy, and I �uld rec��c�mend to the residents if ya� have other alterna.tives or ot�er t�hings yau want, oontact City staff or the �issioner's and see if �e can c�ame up �ith sam� other alternatives. I tbink tt�at issue is 9eparate fram what ��+e're de�.l.ing �vi.th at tt�e c3osner. . Chuck Glass - Just a point of clarification that's �.lready been denied as of the last meeting, it just hasn't gone to Council yet�. The issue before you here is do you want to implement a.ny additional measwc'es• Cc�nissioner Leming -- Again, that's why I want to sa.y I think what we have to do is start from square one again. It's been denied once whether or not it would go forward from there or not, get together with your neighbors and ta.lk about it and bring back same kind of suggestion. There are solutions out there, thep ma.y be tough ones but its going to take the whole neighborhood to address them. -12- �Y 2/14/90 CTC Minutes - Cont'd. Asst. Attorney - Bob Herrick - t�ha.t the issue is as far as liability is concerned is what the striping says about the right-of-way at the intersection. And that means, when we're ta.lking about the inappropriate -- assigning af right-of-way it means when you have a T intersection the person comi.ng out the cul-de-sa,c southbound under the law ha.s the right-of-way over the guy who is turning left going north, and if gou � stripe tha.t as a curve the guy coming north is going to assume that he has the right-of-way, that's the problem. It's not the color of the lines or whet�er its a residential neighborhood or anything like that, it's the problem of telling the motorist going north that he has the right-of-way when the law sa.ys the guy going south has the right-of-way. � Hu.tch Hutchison - Would it be a probl� to put in the double yellow li.nes a.nd reflective markers up to the i.ntersection each way. Cammissioner Fortier - I don't think that's a problem. Would that solve yaur problem if we put this double line uF to the intersection? Cormnissioner Hower - If we went that way I would recon��end that it be given advar�ce waxning signs of a T intersection and 'Not A Thru Street' sign gaing into that cul-de-sac. - Bez•nie Dennis - So what you're asking for Hutch a.nd what Com�nissioner Hower is alluding to is you wa.nt just approa.c.h stripes. Chuck Glass - If we do tha.t and stripe it appropriately there will be no strige within the intersection, it will only come up to the curb return. This was ba.sically our Plan I, the only thing Plan I does not show is the raised dots and in our opinion tha.t will have zero effect on either speed o�r lateral displacement. Conunissioner Sciarra - I agree with that, I still see people cutting the corner. Bernie Dennis - If you wish to seriouslp pursue the neighborhood preservation aspect of� this area. as we did some years ago, it would have to include Adams. I would suggest you ta.lk about it yourselves and initiate that action through a typical letter of �equest. Get away from this, this is done, that's a.n entirely different issue a.nd we're just finishing one now tha.t was quite labor intensive this ma.y or may not be in the same ma.gnitude, but that's the way to get it going a.gain. � a �.l� • 2/14/� C'FC Minutes - Cont'd. 1�� TIQN: DENY the requ�st as submi.tted b� staff. Mf,�I'ION - J. Fortier SF�OND - 8. Leming A�S - Una.nimous 8E�''��ID�TIC�t: In deference to tbe pe�ople �vho are very v�cerned and have been caoncerned for ar�i.le I �ou].d li�+e to make a n� m4tion to try a suggestian ma�de by l�r. Hutchison tbat �e bri.ng the strip�s up to the in�tersectian �.thin ttye legal limit, and �rith ra.ised p�vement markers a�d �e if tbat does not solve t�se peaple's problems and include th+� aPP�Priate �varni.ng signing as �ell. Nd�TION - J. Fortier S�OOND - B. Leming AYES - Una.nimous D. R�c�,uest for the installation of four way STOP's at the intersection of Ca�yon View and Not�e D�. i�Taert Schneider 64� Kings Canyon Rd. C�a.r�ge, CA 92669 ��er to written staff report. Yl�i�c�sion: h�a.rk CampbeTl - There have been 4 accidents �:ere 3 of them not reported, vme of them 2/8/90 - report #90-2-8-2111-144. First of all there a,re alot of kids there because the school bus picks them up every morning. If you gc� south on Canyon View right before Chapman they just put i.n a signal t���e and it didn't do a whole lot of good, STOP signs probably would have wo����d better. There is a gated cor�m�nity north of us a.nd these people use Nc��re Dame to get out. You can't see in either direction onto Canyon View s� there has to be something put in the�e to make it sa.fer and the speed � g��s real fast going down the hill. Ca.n you put crc,sswalks and S".�OP signs in? CCl�:irman Yarger - The only trouble with a crosswalk is what you just � m�ntioned, alot of times when you pa.int two lines people think they're sa.fe wh�� they're not. � 0 T -14- � ' 2/14,(9E} G'i'� Minutes - Cont'd. Ccxrnnissioner Fortier - Do the children have to cross the street to get to the sc�ool bus pick up loca.tion? IIVI.a.ark �vnpbell - No they don't l�ave to, most parents drop them of f. C�ni�sioner Leming - How ma.ny homes are on your street? Mark Campbell - 1 think there's 24 but there's 12 m�re going in and they are �rading for more, and there is a palm tree nursery in our area that has �ates accessing his business. The whole area. will be built up more and there`s alot of people coming out of there and you can't see, there have b�ee� 4 accidents a.nd it's only been open 6 mvnths. ' Ch�.irman Yarger - What's the landsca.ping li.ke out there? ISn't the . Z�.nd�caping cut ba;ck fa.r enough for the drivers to ba.ve clear vision to either right or left of them? Berni� Dennis - Basica.11y there is a sight path through there but it is predicated on about 35-40 MPH. What's happened is when �they built the d�ve�.Qpment an the ea.st side they came in with the very ornate entry ga.tes so s�.ght dista.nce I can assure you is not for 60 N�H, it absolutely is not. Ccx�ra�ssioner Fortier - What if we went with the recan�endation of a 35 MPH poste� sp�ed limit? � C�4issioner Hower - It would appear to me that a 35 MPH speed limit on that street wr�uld not be enforcea.ble by radar in light of the CVC speci�ically Section 22358.5 which sa.ys that "unless something is not r�adgly apparent to the driver you cannot downgrade your speed zone" and wi�tl� a study you have to set your speed limit in accordance with the 85th perc.entile. There is nothing in the�e that is not rea.dily appa.rent to the d�iver - you ha.ve no parking, no children playing in the axea. as all the res�.dential areas are all fenced the only access is intersections, there are median areas. Lt. Leintz, I would assume the Police Dept. would be using radar on tha.t? � L�. �eintz - Yes, it wouldn`t matter if it were posted 25 or 30 MPH if the 85th �ercentile the way it shows now is 47-48 MPH you probably wouldn't see ang enforcement until around 50 �I. . Mark Campbell - Doesn't people getting together a.nd requesting a 5'rOP sign mean that you will put one i.n? Chairman Yarger - There is a certain priority tbat has to take place and � rig,�t now the traf f ic caoming in and out of Notx,e Dame doesn't warrant it right now, so unless there's other things that get b�ought to light that wauld a.ffect the decision. . -1� • 2/14/'9a GTC Minutes - Cont'd. � Bernie Dennis - Gln an arterial street, a.nd we have a number of curvalinear high grade axterial streets within the City, �ve have a big problem with - four-way ST+OP's on graded arterial highways. What we�would be looking at, a.n.d in all ca.ndor, we don`t think a four-way S'POP would work here we think it would be an interim mea.sure until at such a ti.me �he intersection would ba.ve to signa.lized. For example, Outrider St. which is southea,st of you � that is now four-way STQPPID; that's an interim mea.sure until we signalize it whieh will occvr i.n 18 months. So basica.11y what we are looking at here is a $90,000 ST�OP sign i.nsta.11ation. A STOP sign on an arterial street with these kind of characteristics the horizontal a.nd vea~tical alignment tYiat curves up a.nd down, STOP's don't work well. Obviously the �emedial measure would be for the sp�ed to reduce, whether th.is be by signing or by enfarcement or a cambination of all the above. Although the 85th percentile indica.tes that the speed is 48 1V�H there is certa.in precedent i.n the fact that with judicious enforcement that would reduce. It will never go down to 25 MPH; 25-35 MPH optimistica.11� is the best you can be looking at. I think what has happened is that you made the w�ong request at the right time or the right request at the wrong tia�e, I don't think your request should be for STOP control. . Ma.rk Campbell - Do you think it should be for spe�d control? Bernie Dennis - We ha.ve Canyon View built to accom�nodate a very substantial a,m�ount of traffic, it will be 18,000 cars a da.y. For the street to operate effici�ntly for those on the street and for you as a resident adjacent to that street ST�OP signs are not a. good insta.11ation, a signal, however, does allow that operation to occur efficiently for the simple reason that it only delegates right-of-way to your side street when you're there. A STOP sign on the other hand besides generating a heck of alat of noise, obviously requires everyone to stop all the time regardless of what the circumstances are. Mark Campbell - M�.ybe then we should ca.ncel this request and make a new request for a traffic signal. Bernie Dennis - Yes. At this point in ti.me I doubt very seriously that it would meet the warra.nts but what that does is allow us to put it. on our signal priority list. This starts the funding procedure. This improves the efficiency of the ro�adway. If you look up at Outrider tha.t signal was technically funded before Ca.nyon View was ever completed and it was predicated on the fact that it has a large service axea.. There is a substantial amoun� of development t1�at only has access to two loca.tions, Canyan View and Chapman Ave. Now if you consider the same situation in your respect you can get a good ba.ndle of how many dwelling units you serve on your access point. Are pou totally occupied now on your relative developments? , � r _l� - 2/14/9Q GTC Minutes - Cont'd. . Mark Campbell - Our 24 home area. we are, across the street I don't know if they are. Bernie Dennis - The last I checked you're proba,bly 50� occupied and I'm ta.lking now abaut the total service area. Mark Campbell - There's a gate that they just put in on Notre Dame to exit the gated co�unity on the southeast side of Canyon View., this was just apened recently and the person that was in the accident had come out of tha.t gate. Bernie Dennis - Mr. Chairma.n why don't you continue this for 30 daps if you - would. . Chairman Yarger - Do you want to continue this or do you want to DENY the request for the four-way STOP and then c.ontinue to look at it or let them come back witb a request for the signal? Bernie Denriis - That would proba.bly be the appropriate action. R� '' TION: DIIVY the �t for a fa�ur�a.y S'I�QP. Also, oontinue this for 30 daps for passible signa�izatian be plaved va the Signal Priority List, if �e get a request from t�e residents in tbe s�. h'i0TI0N - D. Yaxger SFOQND - B. Leming AYES - Unanimous RF.J��!ATION: rApprove the installation of 35 I�S speed zone oQ C�ny+o� Vie�v gve. f ram Cbapman �ve. to Outrider St.; and � C�nyan Vie�v �Ave. from Outrider St. to K�wport Blvd. MOTION - D. Yarger SEOOND - F. Sciarra AYES - Sciaxra, Fortier N1�YES - Hower, Yarger, Leming - � -17- � 2/14/90 CTC Minutes - Cont'd. R� TIQN: Bring back in 30 days a reoommeridativ�n oa this 35 l�'H speed ��one to be reoansidered and �iether or not the _ questians are addr�9ed as far as t�e enforc�eability of it. Commissioner Hower - I have some questions as to whether it can be enforced by radar, whether it meets vehicle code sta.ndards for downgrading. MOTION - B. Leming SFCJOND - N. Hower � � AYFS - Unanimous , E. Request for the insta.11ation of a handica.pped paxking zone at 221 N. Orange St. Sharon E�ens 221 N. Orange St. , #6 Orange, CA 92666 Pl�a.se refer to written sta.ff report. � There was no discussion on this item. FtHaOM��IDATIQN: DII�]IID MOTION - N. Hower S�OND - D. Yarger AYES - Unarrimous � F. OF�AL PRESENTATIONS - None G. Adjournment at 7 P.M.