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06-11-1997 - Minutes TC .H`M:� �....*�. f r �•'�':���'�.,•�! 4�i..... '•a'��'�:..'-�.. � CITY OF ORANGE ����`'���r��' CITY TR�FFIC COl�ZMISSI�N Minutes of a Regular Meeting: .Tune I1. 1997 I. OPE�IING A. Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag c�c�c�c�c�sc�c�cr�c�sc�c�c�c��c�c�c�sc��cx�ca��c�c�c�scr�c�c�c�c�c��c�c�c�c��c�c� �. Roll Call � Present-Commissioners: Yarger, Forti�r, Gibson, Sciarra Absent - Commissioners: Poutsma � Present - Staftft: Bahac�ori, Winthers, Glass, Allenbach, Then � Sbt. J. Hudson, OFD � Absent -Staff: None c�c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 c�s c�3 c�3 c�c�3 c�3 c�3 c�s c�3 c�c�3 c�3 c�s c�s c�c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 c�c�3 c�3 c�3 c�c�3 c�3 c�3 c�c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 C. Approval of 1V�inutes � Meeting of March 12, 1997 � Meeting of April 9, 1997 + Meeting of M�y 14, 1997 ACTION: Approve as published by the Recording Secretary. MOTI�N Gibson SECOND Sciarra r AYES Unanimous D. Items to be Continued or Withdrawn + None Minutes of a Regular Meeting-City'Traffic Cornmission - �une �1:1997 Page Z II. CONSENT CALENDAR 1. Request for the installatior� of red curb markings in front of 490 N. Rancho Santiago Blvd. Ralph Vargas 490 N. Rancho Santiago Blvd. Urange, CA 92869 �� Oral preserr.tation is base� on the written staf j`'report, please refer to your copy. 7'here was no cliscussion on this item.• ACTION- Approve the request. MOTION: Yarger SECOND: Fortier AYES: Unanzmaus III. CONSIDERATION ITEMS A. Request to remove Vi�ilreal Dr. from the City's Speed Zone 4rdinance and have it posted for a prima facie 25 �Px speed limit. � Traffic Bureau of Orange Police Department Or�rl presenta.tion. is based on the written staff report, please refer to your copy. Chairmnn Yar�er- o�enecl the public hearing for the followin� �liscussion of this re�tcest: � � Mary Baum�nn, 2426 Villareal Dr. - Commentis were unintelligible as they were made fro�� general alidience area and not at the speaker's podium. Chairmnn Yurger closed the pa�blic hearing atul returned the item to the Comm.ission for�liscccssion and a motion. ACTION: Approve the request. � MOTION: D. Yarger �ECOND: F. Sciarra AYES: Unanimous � � Tape#CTC-97.02 of dus TrafEic Comcnission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recoiduig Secietary at(714/74�t-5536)in dus tegard,some advance notice would be appreciated_ Minutes of a Regular lvleeting-Cit,y Traffic Commission - June �l, 1997 Page 3 B. Request for `25 MPH, WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT' sign on Canyon View Ave. in proximity to Handy Creek Rd. and modif cations to the traffic signal at Handy Creek Rd./Canyon View Ave. Hamid Bahadori, City Traf�c Engineer - Since the Asst. City Attorney is not available, I need, for the purpose of the record, the following clarification. Since the Chairman was not at the last meeting the only way you may participate is if you have acknowledged that you have read the full text of the previous meeting and you are aware of what transpired in the previous meeting. Chairman Yarger - Yes I am. � Hanlid Bahadori, City Traffic Engineer - Let the record so reflect. Chairman Yarger - Last month this was discussed c�uite a bit it was open and we had the public �liscussion an�l xhen it was closed. From all the information we � have there will be no further discussion on this atems I am returning t�ie issue to the Comrr�issioner's for�any discussion and�vote. As I mentianed at the opening of today'� meeting yau I�ave a right to appeal our decisaon and rec�uest a �iearing � before t1�e City Council. Oral presentatian is ba,sed on the written szaff repart� which refl�ets issices raisecl at last mor�th's meeting,please refer to your copy. Chairman Yarger - (Question to Sgti. Hudson, OPD) Regarding a portion of our � . staff report that Arraheim gives out a `warning' citation tn an area knowing that it's illegally posted to begin with, how wotild you handte that situation aut on Canyon View if that were done or couId we do it in your opinion? Sgt. Jim Hudson, OPD Traffic Bureau - When a Police Officer makes contact with a gerson for a traffic violation there �eeds to be the �ssue of probable cause to pull that person over. Knowing that the signs were unenforceabl� I wauld have a difficu�t time �nst�cting the Traff c Off�cers ar any Palice Officers to ga out and anybody that is exceeding that sign conduct a detention and actually pull them over. There are some constitutional issues regarding the need of probable cause to pull someone over for the signs that we knew to be unenforceable. Certa.rnly any speed Iimit violations that were taking place on the existing signs wautd continue. REQUEST: Instailation of `25 MPH WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT' sign on Canyon View Ave. in proximity to Handy Creek Rd. ACTION: Deny the request. < MOTION F. Sciarra SECOND J. Gibson AYES Unanimous � Tape#CTC-97.02 of this Traff c Comrnission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Record"uig Secretary at(714/74�-5536)in tlus regacd,some advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Regular lVieeting-Citv Traffic Commission - June �i, 1997 Page 4 REQUEST: Installation of a `BARNES DANCE' type of signal operation at the intersection of Canyon View Ave. and Handy Creek Rd. ACTION: Deny the request. MOTIQN F. Sciarra SECOND J. Gibson AYES Unanimous. REQUEST: Installation of Warning Flashers on Canyon View Ave. ACTIQN: Deny the request. MOTION F. Sc�arra SECOND J. Gibson DISCUSSION: Vice-Chairman Fortier - I brought this up at the last meeting. I've gane out there several times to Iook at that situation and seeing where the traffc light is and the crossing guard and the open space. I think what we have t�ere is adequate there now, and we wouldn't need the flashers there be�ause there is plenty of advance warning of the signal already and there �s�a children crossing sign al�eady installed. . A�YES Unanimous � C. Request for the installation of an `Ali-Way' STOP control device at the intersection of Sycamore Ave. and Lincoln St. aral present�r.tion is base�l on the written sta,f,�'repart, please refer to �our capy, Chairm.cr.rr. Yarger op�ned the public hecr.ring for the fotlowing cliscussion of this re�tr.est: A1 Compton, 445 N. Lincoln St. - I live about 40 ft. from the intersection. Speed bumps were mentioned as a possibility and I think that might be considered. The Iongest stretch is between Sycamore and Palm at Teast 300 yards. Maybe a speed hump there could help. I agree that STOP signs would contribute to poilution and noise and may not be the best alternative. Marsha Hafer, 374 N. Lincoln St. - I am in favor of your decision to install an `Ali-Way' STOP sign, however, I don't want the issue of the speed and traffic volume to be dropped and this to be the end of it. When I talked with Dave Allenbach he recommended we continue to call the Police for enforcement of the speed limit, but that only solves the problem for a short period of tim� and I'm not sure I want policemen sitting on our street when they should be elsewhere. I want .-�. � Tape#CTC-97.0? of tlus Tratf c Coiiuiussion nieeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(71=�/7�F=F-5536)in this regard,some advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Re�ular Meeting-City TrafFc Commission - �une �ii 1997 Page 5 some sort of solution to this, there are a lot of very young children on our street who play on the street and I want it solved before an accident or a death occurs. If you Iook at the history of our street there has already been one child who has been hit. Please cansider the idea that was stated in Jan McGovney's letter asking that our street be used as a pilot program for the speed hump. We realize the City Council has not adopted guidelines for the speed humps so it's not something you can recommend but w� ask that you research this a little further and maybe use our street as a pilo� program to get guidelines established, I know they axe very successful in other cities. Spencer Golden, 415 N. Lincoln St. - I agree to deny the request to install an `A11-Way' STOP, if anything it wi11 increase traffic and pollution. I agree with the possibility of considering speed humps as an alternative. Chairn�ccn Y�rger c�osed the p�blic heuring und returned the item to the � Commissiorr.for discussion cr.M�l tc motion. Ghairman Yarger - Speed humps are very expensive as three have to be installed. � Hamid Bahadori:, City� Traffic Engineer - Speed humps are �ne of the measures that we will bring to your attentian as gart of our overall traffic calming strate�ies in the City _probably at our August ar September meeting, depending on how the - internal review of the city's departments and finalizing the package will go. At � this time the.city does not have any guidelines and standards far the installation of speed humps. Th� speed hump� are not recognized traffic contral devices ar highway design features by either the State or Federal agencies. An}r local jurisdiction that wants to install them they have to go through the legislative process at the Iocal level, meaning the City Council has to review and approve the guidelines. We will bring the guidelines, and speed humps will be one of those measures for your revi�w in either Aitigus� or September. This stree�, among many other streets in the�city wili be potentiai candidate� for such installatians �ssuming that your Commission and the City Council approves such deviees for use in the city but at this po.int we cannot entertain them. ACTIO�t: Deny the req�iest for an `All-Way' STOP at the intersection of Sycamore Ave. and Lincoln St. MOTION D. Yarger SECON';� J. Fortier AYES Unanimous ` � � Tape#CT'C-97.U2 of t�us Tratfic Conunission ineeting is available for your revietv. Please contact the Recorduig Secretary at(714/744-5536)in dus regard,some advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Regular Meeting-Ci,ty'Traffic Commission - une �t, 1997 Page 6 D. Request to re-evaluate the policies and procedures for the implementation of permit parking areas. Traffic Engineering Division CITY OF ORANGE Oral presentation is b�se�l on the written sta,�`'report, please refer to your copy. There was no public irr.put to the discussion on this issue.. ACTIQN: Apprave revised Permit Parking Program Tmplementation Policy and forward to the City Council. MOTION D. Yarger SECOND J. Gibson AYES Unanimous � IV. ADMIIVISTRATIV� REPORTS A. Hamid Bahadori, Citv Traffic Engineer This report is in response to a request made by Vice Chairman Fortier at our administrative briefing session last month. This issue has been discussed in suburban and rural commt�nities for the last 25-30 years wl�ether the use af � � protectedfpermissive left turn it creates a hazardous cond�tian or is permissible, if it's perm�ssible under what conditions it should be used. Again this is one of those areas where State and Federal guidelines are pretty vag�e or mostly siient on the issue and it's left up to local jurisdictions to make the decision. There is no restriction either at the Federal or State level for the use of protected/permissive left-turn operations. Again the protected/permiss�ve operation are those five indicatar s.ignal heads you see �?vhere you get a gre�n ba11 and sometimes you get a green arrow, and you can mal�e a left turn when. you have a green ball and you have to yield to oncoming traffic and there are appropr�ate signs mounted, etc. This issue was pretty hot back in 1993-94 in E�range County and the Orange County Traffic Engineering Council (�CTEC) formed a sub-committee to look at this issue and come up with a guideline for the use by locai jurisdictions. These guideiines are not standards they don't have any legal standing they are just professional practice guidelines prepared by professionals practicing in the field, however, they provide good, sound technical guidelines for such installations if local jurisdictions decide to use them. Dennis Schmitz was one of the members of th�t sub- committee, I have attached copies of the excerpts of the report that was pxepared by 4CTEC. In a nutsheil they said you can use them if you want to, however, they emphasize a lot on public education to make sure that we are using it on routes that are being used mostly by commuters. They did get into some technical issues such as the number of lanes, the prevailing speed on the arterial and sight distance issues � � Tape#CTC-97.02 of r�iis Trattic Canunissioii ineeting is av�►ilable foi your review. Please contact the Recordi►�g Secretaiy�t(71�F/74�-5536)in tlus iegard,son�e advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of�t Re�ular Meetirag-City Traffic Commission - June �t 1997 Page 7 more or less common sense and rather obvious issues, however, they documented them. Returning to the public education issue they also recommended that these installations do not be used as a pilot program on a single isolated intersection. Because it wili create more confusion for drivers. Suppose that in the City of Orange we have 140 traffic signals if we put in the protected/permissive at only one intersection (1/140} and especially if you're.using it on a comdor, such as Tustin, Chapman, Katella, Main you have so many other signals on tha� corridor and if only one signal has th�is feature and the others do not it creates confusion for the drivers. However, this is a recommendation. Some cities have decided to start using them on a single individual basis they usually start using them when a developer signal comes in or when they are installing a new signal, they just go and put in the new signal using protected/permissive and then as funds are available or as they decide they want to use this at the adjacent signals they just go ahead and retrofit the other signals when the money is available or as they decide they want to do it at the adjacent signals they justi go ahead and retrofit the signals or as money is available or if develogrnent occurs they cortdition developers to retrofrt signals. Ci�ies that are using them the most in Orange County are Anaheim who has them all over their city, Huntington Beach has started using them and I don't think they � are being used in Santa Ana or Irvine. It's a matter of Iocal dec�sion, if the Commission wishes to pursue this further our recommendation is that this wi�l be dane not on a single intersect�o� pilot to see what happens type project but on a very in�rolv.ed and welY funded and comprehensive and Iengthy public education . campaign with full community involvement and with full funding to be ahle to da it � carrectly. You don't get the �ntended benefts by use at isolated intersections. Peapl� will not Iearn to use this �ype of system if the light� are located at only one or two Iocations. Dennis Schmitz, Operations Managei• - As of late Anaheim is removing some of their insta.11ations. BasiGally all traffic signals should be designed hopefully to impxove efficienGy as well as safety and I think both of those scenarios need ta be met. �ersonally� I dor�'t believe they be utilized on major arterials that have three lanes in �ach directian and specifcally whe�e we have accident patterns and the majority of our signals on arterials are warranied through accidents also. I wouldn't say that if we had locations with light voiumes and Iow accident history that this couidn't be utiIized, I'm not really opposed to that. For the majority of our arterials I would say detinitely do not use these. Speed is another issue, protected/permissive is not recommended for use in areas posted in excess of 3S MPH. Vice-Chairman Fortier - I can understand on the major arterial where they have the dual left-turn Ianes would not be a good location. In so many instances in Orange where you just miss the arrow a car comes through and you have a little lag. time there and then it changes, we1l you're going to have to sit there through the next cycle. � � Tape#Cl'C-97.02 of�lus Traftic Coininissiori meeting is available for your revie�v. Please contact the Rec�rding Secretaiy a[(71=�/74�-553G}in tliis regard,some advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Regular Meeting-Cit�Tr�ffic Commission - Tune�1, 1997 Page 8 Dennis Schmitz - Typically the majarity of the time we warrant left-turn phasing and especially on multi-lane type facilities it's done through both accidents and volumes and keeping in mind safety as well as efficiency, we not just looking at efficiency but they're also looking at th� safety of the intersection. If you stili have a conflict between the thru cars and the Ieft-turners then you haven't really lessened your potential for accidents and that is my prob�em. Once I have an intersection develaped;as protected Ieft-turns and I have a system of 20 signais on Tustin I don't want to introduce into the middle of it a protected/permissive concept. Hamid Bahadori, Cit� Traffic Engineer - I think it would be a good idea to get an opinion from the Paiiee Department on these protected/permissive signals. Sgt. Jim Hudson - OPD Traffic Bureau - I think it's important to stress that we're trying to reduce accidents in the city and I know there may be statistical that � rnight indicate that there is no imgact on the accident rate, my concern would be when we get to the point where we�re allowing people to make those Ieft turns across the majQr arterials, why give them the choice? Frarikly, let's keep things controlied, Iet's have the aGciden�s reduced. There may be counter-arguments to that but I wo�id like Ca see the data before we render an official opinion but it seems to rn� w� have �naugh trouble with the grotected phase and keeping people from running into eaeh other to add another dimension and remove that protection would seem to ae problematic. Ch�airman Yarger -Do we have that many people running red lights? Dennis Schmitz - There's no doubt that the protected/permissive on an independent type intersection can potentially cut down the cycling because you've moved some cars on the left turn, but that's jeopardizing safety in my opinion. Hamid Bahado�•i = I �rouid like to add one� more thing. Proteeted/permissive is not installed unless protected Ieft-turn is warranted. So we would only install th�se at locations where we would install a protected Ieft-turn anyway. We v�ould not put a protected/permissive on a 2-phase operation. The only reason for the introduction of st�ch an operation is just to increase the efficiency and save time and fuel and reduce air poilution. As Sgt. Hudson suggested field data statistics are marginal it doesn't support the idea or the perception that these installations, by themselves, are increasing the aceident rates. We have five intersections where we will be modifying the signal to provide left-turns this year, if you wish we can look � at them and report back to you on the possibility o#' using protected/permissive. The next opportunity would be next fiscal year because we have no money for any other signalization this year other that these five locations approved by the Council in the budget. We will need a consensus of your opinion before we go to Cauncil for their approval. .-. � 1'ape#CTG97.G2 of ttus Tr:iffic Commission meeting is av:Wahle for youi review. Please contact the Recording Secretaiy at(714/7=F4-5536)in tivs regard,some advance notice�voiild be appreciated. Minutes of a Re�ular Meeting-Citv Traffic Commission - une .�1, 1997 Page 9 � Vice Chairman Fortier - Will you also look at other lacations for next fiscal year� Chairman Fortier - If yau spotted them through the City where they will be beneficial for expediting traffic I would suggest Metropolitan Dr, and The City Dr. ACTIQN: Receive & Fil� the repart. MOTION D. Yarger � SECC�ND F. Sciarra AYES Unanimous V. URAL PRESENTATIQNS None. VI. ADJOURNMENT After discussion of toda�'s Agenda items af the Gity Tra.ffzc Gommission bein� concluded, and there being r�a further requests for action under Qral Presentat�ons, the Chairman adjourned this session of the City Traffc Comrnission to it's next regular meeting. The next regularly schedtiled meeting of the CTC is September 10, 19q7. Respectfuliy submitted, Phyllis Then Recording Secretary City Traffic Commission TRAFFIC ENGINEERING DIVIS[ON DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS CITY OF ORANGE 3OO E. CHAPMAN AVE. ORANGE, CA 92866-.1591 PHONE: (714) 744-5536 . F�: (714) 744-6961 � File Name: June Minvtes (Disk(#18/A-Then) .--� � Tape#CTC-97.0? of[lus Traffic Commission mee[ing is avtilable for your review. Please contact the Recording Sec.retary nr(71=F/7=F=�-5536)in this regard,some advance no[ice would be app=eciated.