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05-14-1997 - Minutes TC CITY UF ORANGE CITY TRAFFIC C011�IlVIISSI4N Minutes of a Regular Meeting: Mav 14, 1997 cr�c�c�sc�c�c�c�c�c�sc�sc�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�sc�sc�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c� ROLL CALL: Present - Commissioners: Fortier, Gibson, Poutsma, Sciarra Absent - Commissioners: Yarger Present - Staff: Bahadori, Winthers, Glass, Allenbach, Then Sgt. J. Hudson, (JPD Absent - Staff: None c�c�c�s c�3 c�3 c�3 c�c�c�3 c�s c�3 c�c�g c�3 c�c�s c�c�c�c�3 c�3 c�c�3 cr�c�3 c�3 c�c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 c�3 I. OPENING • Meeting of March 12, 1997 • Meeting of April 9, 1997 Not Available at this time. D. ITEM5 TO BE CONTINUED OR WITHDRAWN • Consideration Item #D - Page 5 Continue to next meeting. Minute� of a Re�ular Meeting-CitXTraffic Commission - Ma.y 14, 1997 Page 2 II. CONSENT CALENDAR 1. Request for red curb markings for the driveway that services the apartment build�ng at 271/283 S. Oak St. Ann L. Hoyt 277 S. Oak St. Orange, CA 92869 Oral presentation is based on the written sta,�`'report, please refer to your copy. Chairman Fortier opened the public hearing for the following discussion of this request: Daniel Rogers. 1839 E. Palmvra Ave. - Submits photos of driveway, you can see clear to the corner. Submitted letters frorn neighbors opposed to the request. This driveway is wide enough for 3 cars to go in and out I don't know why someone can't see when they're pulling out. Parking is at a premium. There are no other red curbs installed anywhere on the street. Chairman Fortier - Do you realize that one parking space will remain available on the street? Dan Rogers - Yeah, but I think these people don't want old vehicles parked there. The only entrance into this tract is from Palmyra at Tustin. Gloria Roustan, 287 S. Oak St. - We were almost hit pulling out of the driveway because you can't see. There is a great big truck that parks right at the very edge of the driveway and it has wooden sides and you can't see past it. I've lived here for 30 years and I know this problem well. It's very hazardous. You enter the neighborhood from Palmyra and right away you have to make a turn onto Oak St. and right away you have to make a quick right because that's where the driveway is and half the time you can't see because those trucks are there. Chairman 1�'ortier closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission.for discussion and a motion. Chairman Fortier - Does staff find that removing the portion and red curbing the vision zone is essential to a vision zone that will ensure safety? Dave Allenbach, Asst. Engineer - The photos you have seen �ndicate that yes you can see the STOP sign at the corner, however, a vehicle that is traveling northbound on Palmyra which would be closest to the vehicles that are parked here on the street would probably be very hard to see if you were trying to pull out of the driveway. Typically we generally install 30 ft. of red curb, however, because of the driveway's proximity to the intersection and the fact we do not have a documented accident problem we felt that 20 ft. would be reasonable, to provide a measure of safety and have sight distance at this driveway and still retain as much of the on-street parking in the area as possible. � � Tape#CTC-97.02 of tlus Traffic Comnussion meeting is available for your xeview. Please contact the Recordiug Secretary at(714/744-5536)in this regard,some advanc�notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Re�ular Meeting- Ci�Traffic Commission - May 14,,199? Page 3 Commissioner Sciarra - Parking is at a premium here and the problem that exists, as I can see from the photos, appears to come from these large trucks. If these trucks could be parked somewhere it would alleviate the problem. RECOMMENDATION: Approve the installation of 20 ft. of xed curb. MOTION: Gibson SECOND: Poutsma AYES: Gibson, Fortier, Poutsma NOES: Sciarra 2. Request to add 25 feet of red curb to the existing vision zone on the north side of the driveway at 1490 N. Glassell St. Danny Letner 1490 N. Glassell St. Orange, CA 92867-7381 Oral presentation is based on the written staf�`'report, please refer to your copy. There was no discussion of this request. RECOMMENDATION: APPROVE request. MOTI4N: Gibson SECOND: Sciarra AYES: Unanimous 3. Request to ext.end the length of the int:ersection vision zone on the west side of Palmyra Ave. at Heathersone St. Mary Ann Donabedian 367 S. Nutwood St. Orange, CA 92869 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report, please refer to your copy. There was no discussion of this request. RECOMMENDATION: APPROVE request. MOTI4N: Gibson SECOND: Sciarra AYES: Unanimous � Tape#CTC-97.02 of tlus Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(7�4/744-5536)in this regard,some advance notice would be appxeciated Minutes of a Regular Meeting-Ci�,y Traffic Commission - May 14,1997 Pa�e 4 III. C�NSIDERATION ITEMS A. Request for `25 MPH, WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT' sign on Canyon View Ave. in proximity to Handy Creek Rd. and modi�cations to the traffic signal at Handy Creek Rd./Canyon View Ave. Councilman Mike Alvarez Carol LaBounty 360 S. Glassell St. 8245 E. Ironwood Ave. Orange, CA 92866 Orange, CA 92869-4585 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report, please refer to your eopy. Chairman Fortier opened the public hearing for the following discussion of this request: Carol LaBountv, 8245 E. Ironwood Ave. - I contacted Sacramento and obtained a copy of Ch:apter 10 of Caltrans Manual School Area Pedestrian Safetv. Having read this I believe that placing a `25 MPH, WHEN CHII.DREN ARE PRESENT' sign on Canyon View Ave. is the right thing to do. At the beginning of this Chapter, under `General Provisions and Le�al Authoritv', The C.V,C. that is listed is Section 21372, "Guidel.ines of Tra�'r.c Cont.rol Devices Near School.s" in short the Code begins by stating, "That local authorities shall establish guidelines for the placement of traffic control devices near schools for the purpose of protecting students going to and from schools." It concludes with, "Such devices may include flashing signals, such warrants shall be based upon but need not be limited to the following items, pedestrian volume, vehicle volumes, width of the roadway, physical terrain, speed of vehicle traffic, horizontal and vertical alignment of the roadway, the distance to existing traffic control devices, proximity to the school and the degree of urban and rural environment of the area." With Canyon View Ave. being a secondary arterial being 145 ft. away from the front of the school I believe there are a number of items to base the need for a `25 MPH, WHEN CHII,DREN ARE PRESENT' sign on. Canyon View Ave. is wide, the speed of vehicle traffic is well in excess of 40 MPx, it is very close to the front of the school, the street is on a slope, and the road is curved. Canyon View Ave. does not fall under CVC Section 22352, "Prima Facie S�eed Limits". This basically says that when a school is contiguous to a highway there sha11 be a `25 MPH, WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT' sign present on that highway. It does not matter, in this code, if the highway is at the back of the school or the front of the school. It does not matter if there is a gate opening out to the highway or not. All that matters in this code is if the school is contiguous to the highway. �� Tape#CTC-97.02 of tlus Traffic Gonunission meeting is available for youx review. Please contact the Record'uig Secretaiy at(714/744-553b)in this iegard,some advance notice would be app=eciated. Minutes of a Regular Meedng-City Traffic Commission - May 14, 1997 Pag�S In CVC Section 22358.4 Caltrans goes on to give local authorities their approval to establish a prima facie speed limit as low as 15 MPH. Chapman Hills School is not contiguous to Canyon View Ave., the school is separated from the highway by only 145 ft. of grass and sidewalk. If Santiago Hills was not a part of a landscaped maintenance distriet there would be a `25 MPH, WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT' sign on Canyon View Ave. this grass does not change the number of children and adults that will travel on Canyon View Ave. so it does not make sense that this grass should�be what keeps us from a `25 MPH, WHEN CHII.DREN ARE PRESENT' sign on Canyon View Ave. It is my contention that the prima facie speed limit code is established to guarantee a minimum amount of safety to students not to be the only situation and that a `25 MPH, WHEN CHII.DREN ARE PRESENT' sign should be used. It would be impossible for Caltrans to predict and write about every situation in which a `25 MPH, wI�N CHII,DREN ARE PRESENT' sign is needed. Chairman Fortier - Based on that 25 ft. of grass would that still be considered contiguous with the thoroughfare? Dave Allenbach, Asst. Engineer- I believe it has to do with where the school boundary ends. That area, I believe, is along Canyon View is public right-of-way and it doe not belong to the school itself. The school does not front or have any portion thereof along Canyon View. Chairman Fortier - So in your opinion then the sign would be non-enforceable? Dave Allenbach, Asst. Engineer- As far as the enforceability goes I would defer to either our Asst. City Attorney or Sgt. Hudson. � Sgt. .Tim Hudson, OPD Traf�c Bureau - In respect to Canyon View Ave. as it is currently set up on our speed survey the speed limit has been set at 40 MPH. With -the 85�' percentile speed at 44 MPH as pointed out, for us to enforce a 25 MPH area sign frankly would not be upheld in Court, in fact, it actually would be considered illegal under their definition of the speed trap. Wa,yne Winthers. Asst. Citv Attornex - I agree. Based upon CVC Section 22352 I don't believe the 25 MPH would be enforceable. It's not just the property line it also has to do with any physical barrier which I believe there is a fence around the property which also would prevent it under that section a1so. I have not reviewed the other sections that were referred to, whether or not they apply. Commissioner Poutsma - Where the school buildings end until it gets to the street, �s there a fence that would make somebody stop before they hit that road? In other words a child leaving school would they hit any barriers? � � Tape#CTC-97.02 of tlus Traffic Comnussion meeting is available for your xeview. Please contact the Recording Secietaiy at(714/744-5536)ui this regard,some advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Regular Meeting Cit�Traffic Cornmission - May 14, 1997 Page 6 Dave Allenbach, Asst. Engineer- I don't believe so. The pattern we observed is that Handy Creek is a short cul-de-sac street and it basically only services the school, there are no residences that front onto Handy Creek Rd. at a11. Handy Creek ends into the school parking lot. The children that do walk from school to home walk out along the sidewalk that runs adjacent to the school parking lot, they exit onto Handy Creek and then go to the intersection where they cross at the signal. There is a fence at the very south end of the parking lot that runs from the back of sidewalk along the school frontage, but I don't think it would be considered a physical barrier to keep the children from crossing the street. Comrnissioner Sciarra - Isn't there a crossing guard at this intersection? ' Chairman Fortier - Yes there is. There are, I believe, 35 students crossing here each day. Dave Allenbach, Asst. Eng�neer- We did a pedestrian count as part of this study and found that there is an average of 35-40 students crossing this intersection in the morning and afternoon. Many of the children are being driven to and from school by their parents, there is a signal which was imp�.emented for the school. The crossing guard is also there to assist the children in crossing the street and I would like to point out that this is a single-point crossing. We did not observe any children walking along Canyon View either on the north or south side although there is only sidewalk, I believe, on the north side of the street and there is a horse trail on the south side. We did not observe any children walking along Canyon View either east ox west of the intersection, they were crossing at the intersection itself. There is a large residential tract on the south side of the street, I think the � street is called Aspen which runs directly into the tract and they filter in through there. Ed Kissee, Principal at Chapman Hills Elementary School - I'rn out on a regular basis directing traffic while the children are coming to school and at the end of the day as well. As I see it Handy Creek Rd. is defacto an extension of our parking lot there is nothing else on Handy Creek. During the morning this is nothing but cars all the way out to Canyon View and cars are stacked up on Canyon view making left turns into the school. For short periods of time throughout each day that is a very busy intersection. In areas where there are concentrations of children and cars for any period of time we need to keep the children's safety in mind. There are issues in terms of the slope and curve of the road, the trees, visibility is eertainly an issue. There are cases of where the entire crosswalk is not visible from cars until they are very close to that intersectian and so cars approaching the corner have very little reaction time to stop for children in the crosswalk. Personally I would be very much in favor of the `25 MPH, WHEN CHII.DREN ARE PRESENT' sign ��nd I think the concern is relative to the pereeption that the green belt is rea.11y a defacto extension of our school: �� Tape#CTC-97.02 of tlus Traffic Com�nission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Record'uzg$ecretary at(714/744-5536)in tlus regard,some advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Regular Meeting-City Traffic Commission - May 14,1997 Page 7 There really is no barrier of where our kids are and that street. There is no fence along that street it's simply an open grass area. There is a short 3 ft. fence in the kindergarten yard but it's no barrier to our older students who walk in that direction. We do have some kids that walk along Canyon View Ave. to the Cowan Hills development. Michael Alvarez� 360 S. Glassell St. - I was probably one of the ones to encourage the neighborhood to come out and run through this system I want to have an opportunity to support them in their effort here. As far as the enforceability, I think really that isn't an issue, the staff report talks about that it really is an issue in terms as if the courts are going to accept the citation. I think as far as the Police Dept. is concerned if we put up a `25 MPH, WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRE5ENT' sign they can enforce that. that's enforced throughout the city at every school that is done here although in the report that they turned in there are other school's within our own city boundaries that have been provided an exception where they do not have the same situation that we have up in Canyon Hills where a street is using one of these signs where the school does not front on and our report listed a number of those schools that have that, so I think as far as the letter that was submitted by Wayne Winthers, I really don't find it valid. The fact that if the Police take it to court we have to determine if that sign is good or not based on a judgment made by a j udge on whether or not the school is close to the street or not. That shouldn't be the criteria. The criteria should be is it enforceable in effect where the Police can stop somebody during this time zone, which is either when the children are arriving at school or leaving school at 3:00 can it be enforced? The answer is quite simple, it can be enforced at that time. That, to me, blows a hole in that argument. As far as the crossing guard, I asked them to talk to the crossing guard and he pointed out to a lot of the parents, basically he is looking at layers. We have a layer of signs, a layer of traffic signals and we also have the layer of the crossing guard itself which is also there. You know as well as I do the effectablity they all need one another in order to be effective. Before the Council right now we're all arguing whether or not a STOP sign is more effective than a signal and that becomes subjective. When you look at whether a crossing guard is better than a sign especially when the sign they are asking they are both needed, definitely both needed. When you talk to a crossing guard who is standing there watching a car coming around a bend he doesn't know if they're going to see him until they are practically on top of him as the school principal has pointed out. I think it's important to realize that what the neighborhood is asking for is something no different than what this Board has already issued to other school in the city boundaries is to provide an exception, and this exception basically is providing another thin layer of protection for the children. r-. � Tape#CTC-97.02 of tlus Traffic Cominission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recordi.ng Secretary at(714/744-5536)in this regard,some advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Regular Meeting-Citv Traffic Commission - May 14, 1997 Pa�e 8 As far as the signals themselves, a11 you have to do is look at the intersection. There is one signal there set very, very high and we showed that on our report that we submitted to you through Carol I,aBounty. That shows that there is a problem and that the street is curved. We are trying to notify the motorists by placing that signal very high and we're hoping that he sees it as he comes around the corner but there again that identifies that intersection has a problem or that signal wouldn't be there and the neighborhood is asking for another layer just like that signal being there they want another layer, another s�gn. Even though all of us who read the reports may not seem that important they see it more as a layer of trying to show to the motorists that they are approaching a zone that needs their attention. My final comment is on the exceptions. I think it has been pointed out that this body has the authority to make that exception to the rule. The exception is alsa shown on White Oak where there is no school and the report pointed out that at one time there was a road that was being used while the school was being built and thus the sign appears there. Basically the neighborhood is asking us to take that same sign and let's put it where all the kids are. Chairman Fort.ier - I think the park is contiguous with the street and you can also post that where the park is in that area. Michael Alvarez - That's a real good point. Santiago Hills development is the exception in our city in that we require all the greenbelts, the things that the homeowners really had no say in it. They bought into that type of neighborhood. There is really no other neighborhood that I would call Orange proper that has that green belt area. The other problem with the design is that the school is really built for everybody to walk to, situated like it is. But more people are driving their children to school now. I don't think we should penalize the school because this whole development required a green belt system and I think that is what they are basically asking is because of that exception they would like the same thing the rest of the city enj oys. Kathv Eckstaedt, 7946 E. Elderwood - As Santiago Hills is an Irvine Co. planned cornmunity I am surprised that Chapman Hills Elementary School is built so close to and dependent on Canyon View Ave., a secondary arterial. In the City of Irvine the elementary schools are built nestled in residential areas that almost all of its elementary schools do not have fences built around them. Because of this large concentrations of children do not have to pour out onto large highways. We cannot change the location on Chapman Hills Elementa.ry School, what we must do the most that is reasonable to protect our children going to and from school. Having looked at other elementary schools within OUSD there are two elementa.ry schools that have `25 MPH, wHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT' signs on streets where they have no frontage. These two schools are Villa Park Elementary in the city of Villa Park and Anaheim Hills Elementary in the City of Anaheim. s-+ � Tape#CTC-97.02 of dus Traffic Comnussion meeting is available fox your review. Please contact the Recordi.ng Secretary at(714/744�5536)in this regard,sozne advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Re�ular Meeting-Cit,y Traffic Commission - May 14, 1997 Page 9 Villa Park Elementary school is located at 1055 Center Dr. and have frontage on Center Dr. only. This school is close to the intersection of Center Dr. and Villa Park Rd./Katella Ave. as it crosses the Villa Park city limits. The intersection of Center Dr. and Villa Park Rd. is not on a grade, nor is there a curve in either road in close proximity to this intersection. Yet the City of Villa Park has placed a `25 MPH, WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT' sign on Villa Park Rd. approaching this intersection. This intersection also has a signal and a crossing guard at school times and it also has two lanes of traffic traveling in each direction plus left-turn lanes similar to Canyon View Ave. The regular speed limit on Villa Park Rd. is 45 MPH. Villa Park Elementary School is 300 ft. south of Villa Park Rd., that is twice the distance Chapman Hills Elementary School is from Canyon View Ave. Anaheim Hills Elementary School is located at 6450 E. Serrano Ave. and has frontage on Serrano Ave, only. This school is close to the intersection of Serrano and Nohl Ranch Rd. Nohl Ranch Rd. runs east and west through Anaheim Hills. At the east end of this road it dead-ends into Serrano Ave. At the intersection of Serrano Ave./Nohl Ranch Rd. there is a STOP sign and a crossing guard at school times, yet the City of Anaheim has placed a `25 MPH, WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT' sign on Nohl Ranch Rd. approaching this intersection. Nohl Ranch Rd. ha�s two lanes of traffic traveling in either direction plus left-turn lanes. The regular speed limit on Nohl Ranch Rd. is 40 MPH. In addition the City of Anaheim has placed `WATCH DOWI�HILL SPEED' signs all along Nohl Ranch Rd. As other cities has placed `25 MPH, WHEN CHII.DREN ARE PRESENT' signs on streets where schools do not have frontage I think it is rea.sonable to request that our city too place one of these signs on Canyon View Ave. We have photographs available for you to look at that show the areas of Villa Park, Anaheim Hills and Chapman Hills Elementa.ry Schools. I hope you will look at them and judge if there is cause to place a `25 MPH, WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT' sign on Canyon View Ave. in proximity to Handy Creek Rd. Remember, Caltrans is legally placing the responsibility on the City of Orange to place traffic control devices near schools for the purpose of protecting students going to and fzom school. It does not matter that this time is very short and it does not matter what people are driving on these streets, what matters is that we do the most that is reasonably possible to protect our children. .Tack Swain. 7925 E. Elderwood - I live right around the corner from Chapman Hills Elementary School and walk to school every morning. All it takes is for one person to be new to that area and see the 45 MPH sign and then ta.ke off, 10 ft. later they see the crosswalk and the children are present sign. I don't think 10 ft. is enough time to slow down and come to a complete stop. My brother Brett is 5 years old and he said he didn't want to be the first person to die crossing that street, and I don't want my brother to be the first person crossing that street either and I know you can do something about tha':. .-. � Tape#CTC-97.02 of tlus Traffic Comnussion meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Record'uig Secretary at(714/744-5536)in this regard,some advance notice would be a�ppreeiated. Minutes of a Regular Meeting-C�,�Traffic Commission - May 14, 1997 Page 10 Lou Hardin, 132 Hidden Canyon tP.O. Box 12014) - I agree with the CTC in some areas and in some I don't. I think the signal flashing in a11 directions red would probably confuse more motorists and pedestrians than anything else. However, with that aside I still think it's the duty of you to do something to provide the highest level of safety to the citizens of Oxange. The green belt has several trees and street light poles, phone poles, fire hydrants, utility box a11 of which obstruct motorists view. I live up the hill, and my kids are not allowed to walk to school because it's too fast and the school district won't allow a school bus because the speeds are too fast. If that street were a little safer, if we could slow the traffic that the drivers could respond quicker, you would see more pedestrians. My kids school activities don't end at 2:30 p.m. long after crossing guards have gone home. I think the `25 MPH WHEN CHII.DREN ARE PRESEN"f' sign is the minimum that you can do, and I would be willing to pay for that sign's installation. Chairman Fortier closed the public hearing an�d returned the item to the Commission for discussion and a mot.ion. Hamid Bahadori, Citv Traffic Engineer - I don't know if Sgt. Hudson or Asst. C�ty Attorney Winthers are going to change the�r minds after hearing today's public hearing or if they still believe in the enforceability and legality issue. However, I agree with the urban planning concept that an elementary school is so closely placed next to an arterial, and as you know this arterial will carry about 20,000 cars in the not too distant future. The volumes on Canyon View will increase. As far as the effectiveness of the 25 MPH sign, it will be effective only if it is combined with focused enforeement and I will leave that issue to Sgt. Hudson. As far as legality I don't know if Mr. VVinthers has had a change of mind, if not his memo is clear that he believes that this is not legally enforceable and I will let those two gentlemen speak on their areas of expertise. Another thing I would like to propose, there is a possibility of making the condition legal, and all it takes is that the existing open -space be made a part of the school grounds. I don't know what that entails. At this time I don't know who owns that area, if the City owns it, if the Homeowner's Association, however, if that area. becomes contiguous with the school ground legally and physically, the ownership is given to the School District, �nd the fence is modified or taken down then the sign would be enforceable. Additionally, the CVC takes precedence over Caltrans Design Manual. But that's another option, it's kind�of a last minute solution to see if it could work. Commissioner Poutsma - When the maintenance people come to the elementary school and mow the lawn, who mows that section of lawn? Is it mowed by �USD? Ed Kissee, Principal at Chapman Hills Elementary School - No, I don't believe school district personnel mows that section. - � � Tape#CTC-97.02 of tlus Traffic Cominission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Record'uig Secretaiy at(714/744-5536)iu this regaid,some advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Regular Meedng-CitX Traffic Commission - Mav 14�,1997 Page 11 Chairman Fortier - I agree with Mr. Bahadori, I have a couple of suggestions for the Commission. #1) I think every individual case can be looked at and with that open space I wonder if we could ta.ke that specifically and ask Council to rule on a specific case where it is an open piece of ground. �2) With the volume of traffic going to increase I think we're looking at a potential problem further along. The other suggestion I have, could we put in flashing lights up that don't have anything to do with the speed limit but indicate `CAUTION, SCHOOL CROSSING', that WOulCI slow traffic. I have a problem with signing something that is unenforceable. I don't like to put up signs that can't be enforced. I would like to find a legal way to help you. Dave Allenbach, Asst. Engineer - I believe the green belt areas are maintained by a Master Association and paid by an Assessment District. We consider that area like a public sidewalk with a parkway, in this case it just happens to be along the north side of Canyon View, a rather wide parkway with a meandering sidewalk. � I think the school district would have to weight the feasibility of having the ownership and maintenance burden of a certain portion of that area in order to install this sign. With regard to installing flashing lights, we can do that, it's been done in other areas. I would suggest that if you were to consider putting in flashers it would be best to do something so they could be times to flash only when the children would be crossing to and from school. If the flashers are left on for a 24-hour period we have found that the motorist becomes "blind" to them and they become useless after a while. We have found that at locations where we have used these at unprotected crosswalks we have put them on timers or the crossing guard puts them on when they come on duty and turn them off when they leave and they remain very effective for that purpose because they are not on continuously for 24-hours a day. Hamid Bahadori, Cit,y Traffic Engineer - Should the Commission pursue the installation of a flasher I would also request, as part of your motion, that you make a recommendation and direct us to make a finding from the City Council, it will require either a fund transfer or appropriation from General Reserves at the discretion of the Council. At this time we do not have f,unding for that type of installation in the existing or in next year's Budget. The Council would have to address the funding issue. A � Tape#C7'C-97.02 of this Traffic Comnussion meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recoxding Sec�etary at(714/744-5536)itn this regard,some advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Re�ular Meeting-Citv Traffic Commission - Mav 14, 1997 Page 12 Chairman Fortier - I would like to make the following motion: A) To see if we can't get a piece of that property donated so that it is contiguous to the school, therefore it would solve the problem. B) If that can't happen look at proposing and making sure that we can't enforce the sign with the way the prop�rty is situated. C) If those two measures fail we pursue installing a flashing amber light with the proper timing, so it flashes when children are crossing the street, and funding from the City Council. MOTION: J. Fortier SECOND: W. Poutsma AYES: Unanimous Commissioner Poutsma - Do we have any time line where we would know that the District's decision might be on whoever owns that piece of property might or might not become contiguous to the school? Hamid Bahadori� Cit;v Traffic En�ineer - That decision can be done quite expeditiously, we will know by next week who owns that property and if the existing owner is willing to relinquish ownership to the School District. The second part is if the School District is willing to accept ownership. If that happens then there's no further action required because according to the CVC we can go out and install the signs without further action by the Commission. If that is not possible we will pursue funding for the flasher as you requested from the City Council. Wavne Wint.hers, Asst. Cit.v Attorney - One of the speaker's mentioned that this was part of a landscaped maintenance district. If there are assessments for it I �-believe it's going to be very, very difficult to have anyone relinquish ownership, and it may get to the point to where it would have to be through a vote of the people before they can give it up. We'll look into that but I think that will be the case if it is a landscaped maintenance district. That probably won't be a viable alternative. � s�+ � Tape#CTC-97.02 of tlus Traffic Coiiunission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Record'uig Secretary at(714/744-5536)in this regard,some advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Regular Meeting-Citv Traffic Commission - Mav 14,1997 Page 13 B. Request to remove Palm Ave., Sycamore Ave., Canal St. and Heim Ave. from the City's Speed Zone Urdinance and posted for prima facie 25 �vtPx speed limit. Oral presentation is based on the written staf j`'report, please refer to your copy. There was no discussion of this rec�uest. RECOMMENDATION: APPROVE request. MOTION: Fortier SECOND: Sciarra AYES: Unanimous C. Request to adjust the boundaries for the speed zones on Metropolitan Drive. Oral presentation. is ba.sed on the written staff report, please refer to your copy. There was no a�iscussion of this request. RECOMMENDATION: APPROVE request. M�TION: Sciarra SEC4ND: Gibson AYES: Unanimous � IV. ADMI1vISTRATIVE REPORTS A. Hamid Bahadori, Cit,y Traffic En�ineer - 7ust to keep you up to date on what happened with the Handy/Collins decision. Your recommendation for on-street parking restriction on Collins Ave. was appealed to the City Council. There were a lot of other questions raised associated with that issue a.nd now it is an inter- departmental matter, 4 departments are working to prepare answers to those questions. We are scheduled to go back to the City Council on June 10, 1997 and at that time we will know if your recommendation will be upheld or if the Council wishes to make other decisions. V. L1RAL PRESENTATIONS None. � � Tape#CTC-97.02 of tlus Traffic Conuiussion meeti.ng is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714/744-553G)in this regard,some advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Regul r Meeting-C�Traffic Commission - Mav 14,1997 Page 14 VI. ADJOURNMENT After discussion of today's Agenda items of the City Traffic Commission being concluded, and there being no further requests for action under Oral Presentations, the Chairman adjourned this session of the City Traffic Commission to it's next regular meeting. The next regularly scheduled meeting of the CTC is June 11, 1997. Respectfully submitted, Phyllis Then Recording Secretary City Traffic Commission TRAFFIC ENGINEERING DNISION DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS CITY OF ORANGE 3OO E. CHAPMAN AVE. ORANGE, cR 92866-1591 PHONE: (714) 744-5536 FAx: (714) 744-6961 File Name: May Minutes (Disk#{18/A-Then) � ��� Tape#CTC-97.02 of dus Traffic Conunission meeting is available for youx review. Please contact the Recording Secrekary at(714/744-5536)in tlus regard,some advance notice would be appreciated.