07-01-2009 DRC MinutesCITY OF ORANGE
DESIGN REVIEW COMMITTEE
MINUTES -FINAL
July 1, 2009
Committee Members Present: Bill Cathcart
Adrienne Gladson
Tim McCormack
Craig Wheeler
Joe Woollett
Committee Members Absent: None
Staff in Attendance: Leslie Aranda Roseberry, Planning Manager
Dan Ryan, Historic Preservation Planner
Anna Pehoushek, Principal Planner
Sandi Dimick, Recording Secretary
Administrative Session - 5:00 P.M.
The Committee met for an Administrative Session beginning at 5:05 p.m.
Vice Chair Gladson opened the Administrative Session with any information from Staff.
Planning Manager, Leslie Aranda Roseberry, stated there were no changes to the agenda or there
was no policy or procedural information. Principal Planner, Anna Pehoushek, was present to
continue the discussion regarding the General Plan.
Ms. Pehoushek stated she would recap the Natural Resources element which pertained to all
things related to water and air quality, parks and recreation, and visual and aesthetic resources.
The policy language was related to those topics. The Natural Resources component had
discussion pertaining to energy conservation and green building and also the relationship
between development and climate change. Staff focused not only on the energy efficiency
aspects of green development, but also an overall look at sustainability, which included site
permeability, vegetation, landscaping, and building orientation. It was the first time anything of
that nature had been included in the City's General Plan and would take them in a direction that
the State of California was taking. It was the wave of the future and the language that was
included was not very intense or binding.
Committee Member Woollett stated those aspects of the plan could be huge for the DRC. He
asked if the language was not very binding why was it included; were those components to
remind people that Staff felt those issues were important, however, they had not planned to do
anything about them?
Ms. Pehoushek stated the intent was not to act on it; it was an issue that City Council had been
very clear on. City Council had not necessarily subscribed to the philosophy that climate change
was an issue and they had not wanted the City to mandate that building should occur in a specific
manner. As green thinking and green development evolved in the State and through the building
codes, those components gave Staff a framework to build on. Should they become more
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aggressive or they wanted to work more closely with a developer, it gave them tools to work
with. Currently they would not have the right to bring up that discussion.
Committee Member Woollen asked with the new components would that give them the right to
bring about that discussion?
Ms. Pehoushek stated yes, they could then refer to the General Plan and something that had been
identified as something the City was working toward in future developments and would justify
discussion. The development of the General Plan Natural Resources component was being
worked on while the City was working on the Orange Goes Green program. There was language
in the implementation and mitigation agreement that was a little more aggressive than City
Council would like them to be in establishing thresholds for residential or commercial
developments and linking those thresholds to energy efficiency or site improvements. As a
result they would be softening up the language that had been sent out in some of the public
review documents and to still meet the intent of those measures that were identified. Staff was
repackaging the specifics into making a commitment to develop a climate action plan within 12
months of adoption of the General Plan and that would be where all the tools would be included.
She hoped to be a bit more direct about the plan, but it was the reality of the environment they
had to work within.
Committee Member Woollen stated it sounded as if the City Council wanted a pat on the back
for thinking green, but had not wanted any criticism for requiring them to do anything.
Ms. Pehoushek stated she looked at the plan as a platform for discussion with developers and it
gave Staff something to work with. As the subject evolved there would be more clarity in the
direction from the State and the requirements specific to building codes.
Committee Member Woollen stated the building codes were very specific in California and they
were some of the toughest codes in the country. It was nice to put it all down; however, it would
be the codes that would be used.
Ms. Pehoushek stated in working with an applicant and encouraging that applicant to get a more
green design they would have a platform for that discussion beyond the building codes. Once
they saw the Climate Action Plan that would help and there would be development of design
guidelines for different things with one being green design guidelines. They were attempting to
look at it from an interdisciplinary standpoint, not only from an aesthetic standpoint, but also
from the NPDES, which was a tool that was looked at more seriously on how sites were
designed.
Committee Member Woollen stated if there was a rain water collection system in a project to
reuse that water, quite often the water company resisted that idea as the water was not going into
the ground to be sold back to the user.
Vice Chair Gladson stated there were many different nuisances to green policies that had not
been worked out and her sense was the Natural Resource component was a starting point for the
City of Orange to get the discussion going. She felt the development world was already on board
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with much of it and thinking LEED or some other strategy that was economically smart. It was
good business sense to think that way.
Ms. Pehoushek stated it would assist them.
Vice Chair Gladson stated the implementation would require a lot more.
Ms. Pehoushek stated the community philosophy was not up to where the planning and design
world was.
Vice Chair Gladson stated she could appreciate where City Council was on the issue and it was a
matter of getting them to understand that it was not so scary.
Ms. Pehoushek stated they were not totally engaged in the larger movement. People looked at it
differently. Other aspects of the Natural Resource element would involve the parks and
recreation areas and the amount of park space provided. There were also components that
looked at Santiago Creek and developing it as more of a recreational resource. Through the
capacity that the DRC would review CIP projects and trail projects there was language that
spoke about the relationship of new development along the creek and to not have new
development turn their back on the creek, but to incorporate it as an amenity. Cultural Resources
was another area that the DRC dealt with; in the past it was the Historic Preservation element.
Staff was suggesting a name change to Cultural Resources to have it be a bit more encompassing
and she felt it would ultimately be called Historic Preservation and Cultural Resources element.
Currently the preservation element focused on Old Towne and the buildings of Old Towne and
once outside of Old Towne there was not much guidance on what to do when encountering
different conditions and those historic buildings outside of Old Towne. Part of the renaming
would be to look at cultural resources in a broader citywide manner, some of the archeological
resources, and also looking at the library services in the City as a tool kit for the City. The policy
focus was architecture and community character, preservation of Old Towne, incentives and
education, library services, and looking beyond Old Towne. Staff had looked at attempting to
capture the Eichler tracts and setting the framework and designating that tract as their own
historic district.
Committee Member Woollett asked if that had been discussed with City Council?
Ms. Pehoushek stated they were aware of it; they had been briefed and there had not been any
negative reaction. The community itself had provided a lot of positive feedback from the Eichler
community and it appeared to be well received. There were a few areas of the City, El Modena,
the Cypress barrio area, and the rail corridor that ran through Old Towne and outside of Old
Towne. They were looking at a new tool called the Neighborhood Character area where the
buildings would not fall within a historic district, but there was enough of the historic buildings
remaining and the feel of an area to what it had been back in the day that there could be an
establishment of this Neighborhood Character overlay accompanied with some design guidelines
so that new development would mimic the forms and site layouts of what had been there
historically. The intent would be to have new development be more compatible with what
remained with the old fabric.
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Committee Member Wheeler suggested that the in-fill guidelines were being used as a tool that
was effective.
Committee Member Woollett stated the only thing that bothered him was that the barrio areas
were not viewed with much joy and it seemed to him that it was a real mine field to attempt to
hold onto something just because it was old. When would a resource become a cultural resource
instead of just a decrepit part of town? They had dealt with that in Old Towne where some of the
old buildings were so poorly built, such as the single wall constructed buildings, and some of
those buildings were barely habitable. When Perez decided it was a good idea to pave the streets
in El Modena, the cultural resource was lost, dirt streets. He wondered where it would lead
them?
Ms. Pehoushek stated the Cultural Resource element guidelines would not be as strict as the Old
Towne standards; they would be more in line with the in-fill guidelines and provide a bit more
specific guidance and paved the way for improvements. It would be identified as part of a future
plan to establish neighborhood character areas and appropriate guidelines for future change to
those areas. There would not be specific guidelines for building material or window types; it
would be broader in regard to building forms and massing features.
Chair McCormack arrived to join the discussion and stated those would be guidelines and not
standards.
Ms. Pehoushek stated that was correct.
Committee Member Woollett stated even the Eichlers' had some significant design flaws. For
instance, they would run smack up against the energy green guidelines. There were walls of
glass on the south sides of those buildings with no protection and that took you as far away from
a green building as one could get. If those would be a cultural resource they could not be
changed.
Committee Member Gladson stated the nice part of the policy tool would be that the
implementation would have a public participation component as a sub-goal. To ask the
immediate neighborhood such as El Modena or the Cypress barrio, which she appreciated
Committee Member Woollett's observation, and 20 years ago those neighborhoods had not
necessarily cared about their little niche, but she felt that had changed. If those neighborhoods
wanted to organize and go to City Council to have their own community character with some
specific goal, she felt it would be an appropriate thing to do for that neighborhood.
Ms. Pehoushek stated all those things lead to the implementation and community input and
certainly any implementation that involved developing, design guidelines, standards, or street
scape would be very intensive and have interactive experiences with the community and with the
DRCe
Chair McCormack stated with those areas it was eclectic, if they would apply certain street
scapes and design standards it would not appear as it had today. It was as if there were no rules
and that was where the charm came from. He would not want guidelines on those areas to limit
those areas.
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Ms. Pehoushek stated there would need to be some protection in place for some of those areas.
They had not gotten to that level of detail, and it could be that after they explored it there might
not be much support for it and then it would be removed from the list.
Committee Member Gladson stated she was pleased that there would be that component for the
Eichler tract and with the look toward other areas.
Ms. Pehoushek stated they had heard from the community that Orange was much more than just
Old Towne. There was the Urban Design piece which was completely new and focused on the
major commercial corridors of the City of Orange. They had viewed the commercial corridors as
an area to move traffic and had not looked at the streets in a manner beyond that. They were
looking at development on those streets, creating an attractive area to do business, landscape and
to look at it as a bigger package with its relationship to the street and those buildings on it. There
was a pedestrian connection, street environment, business environment, and economic
development tool and pulling all those components together in communicating an impression of
what the City of Orange was. When entering Orange was it obvious that it was a different
community that people noticed they were entering? That thought would force them to view what
they would be doing to the streets in a more deliberate manner. There were major boulevards
that ran through Orange and into other major regional connections and they had not treated them
with any special handling. That would be the policy focus. In terms of the Urban Design plan
they would be looking at enhancing a total boulevard image and what those areas provided for
pedestrian access, public transit, and the movement of traffic. Staff would revisit the existing
design standards, such as the Southwest Design guidelines, Tustin and El Modena Design
guidelines to ascertain if they were still useful in their current form, would they need freshening
up or would they require new guidelines -something new and different, something more
representative of where they wanted to go. Staff would be reviewing Tustin, Chapman, and
Main, but also Lincoln Avenue which was a corridor that had not gotten much attention and
thinking a bit more closely about Katella. There was a component in reviewing treatment of
gateways to the community and visual landmarks, such as the Selman Chevrolet sign or the flag
pole at Town and Country and had they wanted to do more to memorialize those things that
people identified with Orange. There would also be discussion in raising the community
expectations for design quality in the community.
Chair McCormack stated there were all the other design standards that were fairly similar, it was
almost as if there would be an element that needed to be focused on to bring out the character.
The standards all seemed to be the same and Cities worked from those and they all appeared to
be the same.
Ms. Pehoushek stated they had heard loud and clear that Orange was a distinctive community
and they had not wanted to mimic other communities but to create something that was
organically Orange, whatever that might be. Something that captured the essence of what
Orange was and one of the charms of the City was its diversity and what made it what it was.
Chair McCormack stated he had worked on Ventura Blvd. that went through Encino, Sherman
Oaks, and Tarzana, and it was interesting when moving through that area that it was evident
when you were in Sherman Oaks, and in Tarzana, which was named after Tarzan, but you knew
when you were in Tarzana because of the tropical and flowery nature of the landscape. That was
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an iconic treatment of a very long boulevard that had a distinct sense of those specific
communities. Encino looked different from Sherman Oaks.
Committee Member Cathcart stated along that same line was to place a priority on pedestrian
friendly areas and to place some type of separator from traffic so people felt comfortable.
Another point being, would the area be commercial friendly? Would the trees be placed in a
manner as to not block the view of the business signage? There were all kinds of conflicting
priorities.
Ms. Pehoushek replied that if a nice enough of an environment was created people would know
what businesses were there and some of the most desirable business communities had very small
signs. They would explore what the answer was for Orange and to strike that balance.
Committee Member Gladson stated the exciting part of that was it asked for integration of all of
those things and nothing existed in isolation, to pick the best pieces and the best approach and to
think of the big picture.
Ms. Pehoushek stated she was gathering information on legislation that was the Complete Streets
Act that would lend more insight.
Committee Member Gladson stated they spoke about that when reviewing the CHOC hospital
expansion project and how they dealt with the urban aspects of Main and La Veta, this would
provide a tool to look at those issues. She would want to have those elements shared with the
DRC in the future and it would not occur over night and the expenses involved would be great.
Chair McCormack stated there would need to be areas identified that required traffic calming.
The City of Orange's concept was how to get traffic through and once that concept was dealt
with everything would change.
Ms. Pehoushek stated it would be a very big shift in thinking; they were currently talking about
medians on South Main Street as part of the street widening and that was the first time in the last
10 years that it had been on the radar screen. It was a change, a slow evolution, and the plan
went to 2030 as nothing would happen over night. She stated they were completing the
responses to comments on the EIR for the General Plan and targeting an August 3, 2009 date for
the first Planning Commission presentation and then the adoption process would go from there.
Hopefully by November there would be an adopted General Plan.
Committee Member Gladson asked if the Urban Design plan would be brought to the DRC?
Ms. Pehoushek stated when the implementation components were presented they would want
that feedback from DRC.
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Committee Member Woollett made a motion to adjourn the Administrative Session.
SECOND: Bill Cathcart
AYES: Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Joe Woollett, Craig Wheeler
NOES: None
ABSTAIN: None
ABSENT: None
MOTION CARRIED.
Administrative Session adjourned at 5: 40 p.m.
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Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
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Regular Session - 5:30 P.M.
ROLL CALL:
All Committee Members were present.
PUBLIC PARTICIPATION:
Opportunity for members of the public to address the Design Review Committee on
matters not listed on the Agenda.
There was none.
CONSENT ITEMS:
All matters that are announced as Consent Items are considered to be routine by the
Design Review Committee and will be enacted by one motion. There will be no separate
discussion of said items unless members of the Design Review Committee, staff or the
public request specific items to be removed from the Consent Items for separate action.
The approval of minutes was moved to the end of the agenda. Committee Member Cathcart was
recused from the review of the minutes as he had been absent from both the June 3, 2009 and
June 17, 2009 Design Review Committee Meetings.
1) APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
a) June 3, 2009
b) June 17, 2009
Committee Member Gladson made a motion to approve the minutes from the regular Design
Review Committee Meetings of June 3, 2009 and June 17, 2009 with the corrections and
changes noted.
SECOND:Craig Wheeler
AYES:Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Joe Woollett, Craig Wheeler
NOES:None
ABSTAIN:None
ABSENT:None
RECUSED:Bill Cathcart
MOTION CARRIED.
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Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
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AGENDA ITEMS:
Continued Items:
2) DRC No. 4421-09 - EHLEN & GROTE FACADE RENOVATION
A proposal for a facade renovation to the contributing Ehlen & Grote commercial
building, which fronts on Glassell and Plaza Square.
110 S. Glassell and 40-42 Plaza Square, Plaza Historic District
Staff Contact: Dan Ryan, 714-744-7224, dryan(a~,cityoforange.org
No Quorum" from the June 17, 2009 DRC Meeting
DRC Action: Recommendation to the Planning Commission
Chair McCormack and Committee Member Wheeler were recused from the presentation due to
conflicts of interest.
Historic Preservation Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff
Report.
Applicant, Doug Ely, address on file, stated they would be preparing smock-up of the actual
glass and installation that would be used to present to the DRC. The building was built in 1909
and they had received quite an education on the prism glass. The glass had thrown light that
would hit it at an angle directly back and it was prior to the invention of electrical lighting. He
and his associates had been exploring a number of different ways to recreate the glass as they
were unable to restore the entire area. The re-creation process was that they had found a
manufacturer back east that could manufacture the prism glass and a local artisan that would be
able to put them together in a leaded glass frame. They were in the process of gathering that
pricing that was anticipated to be unaffordable. They had found other ways to create a similar
affect. They had initially approached the concept by mounting the glass to an opaque painted
surface; however, due to Tiffany Nunley's work, they were currently pursuing installing
translucent glass. Many of the tenants had boxed-in store fronts and there would not be much to
view behind the glass; however, in using the original material it was the best attempt at
recreating what had originally existed. They had previously presented Reed Glass that they
could obtain in large sheets which could be adhered to another sheet of tinted glass. They would
not proceed on anything until it was presented to the DRC. They only had about 2 ''/z" of space
from the brick to the steel retrofitted area and it limited the size of frame they would be able to
use.
Mr. Ely stated he wanted to clarify some of the comments from the Staff Report. Initially, the
windows that they were seeking to recreate would be metal; the Staff Report noted wood. He
had not believed the frames had ever been wood. The other issue he wanted to address was that
of the awnings; he had been the architect involved with the building at North Glassell and they
had been required to install retractable awnings. They had a hard time locating a crafts person
who could build the framing and they were cost-prohibitive. Mr. Ryan had noted that EMT was
in place and that had been added later for lighting purposes; the original frame had not been
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EMT. They had researched the retractable awnings and through historical photos they had gone
away fairly quickly. The retractable awnings had not done well over time; they bunched up
when retracted and in later years they were on rollers. When the awning came out they just
flopped in the wind. When he had installed the retractable-type awnings on a previous project,
during the first wind storm the awnings were ripped right off. If they wanted the building owner
to roll them up every night it was probably not going to happen. They became impractical
during the historical evolution. Mr. Ely stated he had walked around Old Towne and he could
not find a really good example of what he thought the DRC and Staff would want in retractable
awnings. There was "S"-type, where the pins were pulled and some bolts removed and the
awning would collapse against the building. If Staff wanted the retractable awnings recreated
because that was what the building had, he had evidence of the changes that had occurred over
time. He presented photo evidence of the changes in the awning styles and types over the years.
He wanted the option to replace the awnings in rigid frames that would secure well to the
building. If they were retractable they would never be retracted, unless the wind would rip them
off and that became a moot point.
Committee Member Woollett asked if it was possible to have a retractable awning that the wind
would not rip off?
Mr. Ely stated not with a retractable type. He could not guarantee that a fixed awning would not
get ripped off in a strong wind.
Applicant, Tiffany Nunley, address on file, presented some additional photos and sample
drawings of awnings. The Committee Members reviewed the samples.
Mr. Ely presented color samples that they proposed for the building. He explained that the top of
the building had a metal top area and he explained how the color palette would work. There
would be a yellow accent color used. The awnings would be a wine color and he presented a
sample to the Committee Members. The Committee Members reviewed the color samples with
the applicant. He stated that his clients wanted to restore the building for the sake of restoration
and it was not tied to a new tenant coming in, it was the desire to bring it back to what it was. He
had met with the City's Economic Development Department and hoped to get some assistance
with the facade improvements.
Public Comment
None.
Vice Chair Gladson opened the item for discussion.
Committee Member Woollett stated he liked what the applicants were doing and commended
them for their efforts. It was being done carefully. He wanted to understand what they were
going to be doing with the glass and he asked if the DRC would have an opportunity to review
something at a later date?
Mr. Ely stated he would be obtaining amock-up of the actual glass installation and that would be
brought back to the DRC for their review.
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Ms. Nunley stated they wanted to replace the leaded glass with an exact match, however, they
had done a study in the 1990's and it was cost-prohibitive, and there were very few artists that
had the skills for that application. They would attempt to match it as closely as possible.
Committee Member Woollett asked if there were steel-framed windows in an area he pointed to
on the plans?
Mr. Ely stated those were existing steel frames and they would be painted yellow. The door was
close to what the door would end up being on the Glassell side, it was a wood door. There was
exterior grade plywood with some detail that went around an area he pointed to on the plans.
Back in the early 1990's when the building had been seismically upgraded, vertical steel
columns were installed and they were boxed in with plywood with a trim around it; they
proposed to paint those the same color of the area around it to have them disappear.
Mr. Ryan stated on the Plaza side the metal doors would be replaced with wood.
Mr~ Ely stated that was correct.
Vice Chair Gladson stated on the retractable awning issue she wanted to discuss that a bit more.
Mr. Ryan thanked Mr. Ely for providing the photos and pointed out on the photos how the
shadows had increased, and the store fronts became darker with the change in natural lighting.
Mr. Ely stated they were looking at a photo that had a building facing due east and those awnings
would always be there; if he suggested that the store front would be lightened up by removing
the awnings it would not happen.
Ms. Nunley stated the awning designs changed, they had been phased out and brought back
based on the nature of what they could and could not do. There were awnings currently on the
building that had been approved in the 1990's.
Mr. Ryan stated he had not remembered much of a discussion back then.
Ms. Nunley stated the awnings served as a safety feature. There were tenants upstairs with
windows and anything that would fall would be protected.
Vice Chair Gladson stated generally she concurred with the comments from her colleagues and
the applicant should be commended for their efforts. She had not found too many issues with the
design. It was compliant with the Old Towne Standards and the Secretary of Interior's
Standards. When something was being recreated they would look to recreating it as closely as
they could. Regarding the glass, she suggested that the applicant look into replicating the leaded
glass first and if that could not be done to choose an alternative and she supported that. She felt
the trims and design of the building were very strong features and removing inappropriate stuff
was well over due. She liked the glazing on the building. She wanted the applicant to keep the
retractable awnings and agreed with Staff. Personally she felt the awnings were an addition for
sun coverage and the building looked good with them or without them. She had hoped the
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applicant would make a real good faith attempt to accomplish installation of retractable awnings.
If it was cost-prohibitive, she understood. The color scheme had not given her any heartburn.
Committee Member Cathcart stated the philosophical viewpoint of the applicant was just as
important as what they were looking at. They had something special and he liked the idea of
replicating what was there. He had an office in that area for 40 years and during the retrofit there
were elements that were changed and he leaned to the applicant to try to replicate the transom
and on the collapsible awnings he was neither hot or cold, if they could be replicated that would
be nice, however, he would not want a bunch of junk hanging from the front of the building.
Some of the old photos showed the retractable awnings that bunched up and became very dirty.
If the applicant could find retractable awnings that would handle those issues he was fine with
that. It was his feeling that retractable awnings would not need to be part of the solution. He
liked the color choices and he was in support of the proposed project.
Committee Member Woollett stated he felt the color choices were excellent and he liked the tie
in with the glass. His office had been on the Plaza facing east and the sun in the mornings could
be devastating and they had to be protected from that side. With blinds inside the heat came in
and stayed in; if the blinds were outside the heat stayed out. He felt the awnings were necessary.
There were better materials available now. There were things done in the past that were not very
good and they needed to strike a compromise.
Vice Chair Gladson stated she could make another plea for the retractable awnings; they were a
big part of the element of the commercial corridor. There were awnings that went in and out
based on the movement of the sun.
Committee Member Woollett stated his point was that the awnings would never be retracted, and
just because they retracted was an irrelevant issue.
Vice Chair Gladson stated she understood his point. It would be nice to have the element
present.
Committee Member Woollett asked for the purpose of being able to view a bar and a hinge?
Vice Chair Gladson stated yes, to be able to have a sense of how it operated and functioned. If
she was hearing correctly, she could lose her point, but she still felt that it was something she
wanted to see. It was obviously a feature that was in their past. They opened and closed and the
merchants probably rolled them out at 9:00 a.m. and rolled them up at 5:00 p.m. and there was a
romance to that. She thought it was a neat element and she was probably in the minority, but she
could probably live with fixed awnings. She wanted the applicant to attempt to pursue
retractable awnings.
Committee Member Woollett stated back in the early years when lighting wasn't what it
currently was, prism glass really worked to bring light into the building. In the morning hours
when the sun struck the glass it brought light into the store and the awnings kept the direct light
out of the lower windows. In the afternoon without any east light shining on the prism glass the
awnings could be retracted to let the ambient light in. He could understand why there would be
motivation to retract the awning to allow other light in. Without the prism glass and the direct
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lighting coming from the east there was not that situation. In the past there was a motivation for
retracting the awnings, to have more light in the afternoon. The situation would no longer exist
as there would be no light from the prism glass and that meant the only light would be direct
light blazing through the clear glass in the morning. The building would be dependent on
electric light in the afternoon and it was highly unlikely that anyone would turn the electric lights
off in the afternoon in order to retract the awnings.
Mr. Ryan stated another thing was to find something that worked with in-kind materials if it was
available. In the last two storefront restorations there were retractable awnings required as part
of the approval, and it was a direction they would need to look at. He felt they had an
opportunity to examine the use of retractable awnings.
Mr. Ely stated they had gone through an exhaustive effort on the corner project and they had
only been able to locate one contractor that could custom build retractable awnings and it was a
contractor that had worked on Main Street in Disneyland. The awnings in Disneyland were
never retracted. Per the requirement they proceeded with the retractable awnings, the benefit of
that type of awning was that they could be retracted, however, for the most part that was never
necessary. In looking at old buildings there were not frames on the awnings and they just
flapped in the breeze. It was true there was a romance to them and if it was found that there was
a retractable awning that was easy to produce and would fit their ability to have them constructed
they would consider that.
Committee Member Woollett stated he was involved in the sale of a relative's condo in Santa
Barbara and she had an awning on the west side of the house that was electrically operated.
Mr. Ely stated they had looked at that type of awning, however, when the awnings were retracted
the housing unit was very large and it became a design problem. The arms of those units looked
very contemporary. It would solve the retractable situation, but added non-historic features that
would detract from the historic character.
Ms. Nunley stated their desire was to find an awning that closely matched a retractable awning
but was not retractable. They had no desire to create a contemporary element.
Committee Member Woollett asked if the awnings would have open sides?
Mr. Ely stated no, some had open sides, but the awnings on their building did not have them.
Vice Chair Gladson stated she would encourage a bit more homework on finding another
contractor or expert that could recreate retractable awnings. She wanted an attempt made and
she would be inclined to not remove that condition, but allow the applicant to pursue that option
more as a recommendation or a suggestion. If it was not at all feasible then to return and install
fixed awnings. She agreed with Staff that there had been a desire to be consistent in the request
for retractable awnings.
Committee Member Cathcart stated he held the position that the architect could continue to
research retractable awnings, but not ad nauseam. There had to be a point where they had
completed their exhaustive study and they had found them or had not, and from a personal
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 14 of 28
standpoint having worked on the Plaza project for 18 months they had not taken the Plaza back
to its roots. The City looked at some projects from one time frame and the next project from
another time frame, and he thought a precedent had been set that the City was nostalgic about
certain aspects, but schizophrenic on others and he suggested the philosophy of the architect was
to take the building back to the romantic roots if they could. He gave them all the credit for
attempting that, and he would not want to make a recommendation that they would need to
install retractable awnings, he would not want to go there.
Committee Member Woollett made a motion to recommend approval to the Planning
Commission of DRC No. 4421-09, Ehlen & Grote Facade Renovation, with the conditions
contained in the Staff Report and with an exception to change the word "provide" to the word
recommends" historically retractable awnings, and that the building color and awning fabric
colors to be approved as submitted.
SECOND: Bill Cathcart
AYES: Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Joe Woollett
NOES: None
ABSTAIN: None
ABSENT: None
RECUSED: Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler
MOTION CARRIED.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 15 of 28
3) DRC No. 4411-09 - FREEBIRD CAFE
A proposal to convert amulti-unit contributing residence into a 1,300 sq. ft. restaurant.
Project includes awrap-around deck and stairs with 1,173 sq. ft. of outdoor dining area.
193 N. Lemon Street, Old Towne Historic District
Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, 714-744-7224, drvan(cr~,cityoforange.org
Preliminary Review from the March 4, 2009 DRC Meeting
DRC Action: Final Determination
Historic Preservation Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff
Reports
Applicant, Chris Le Tourneau, address on file, stated they had gone through the proposed project
and had received some good feedback last go around, and Committee Member Wheeler's
architectural suggestions were quite helpful. He had gone back and modified the trellis, created
a more traditional column, and produced a more accurate existing floor plan. One of the
challenges was the amount of fenestration maintained and the large size openings they proposed.
It had much to do with the anticipated use of the building. It had worked well with the existing
openings as a residence; however, the use was being changed and necessitated the changes to the
typology of the building. There had been many examples in the City of Orange where residences
had been converted to restaurants, and with certain types of restaurants it worked with those
places that were more introverted and that wanted to keep that cozy feeling. They also wanted to
create that warmth and comfort, but they also wanted to adapt the use to a multiple demographic
use and to a more social atmosphere that would engage larger groups of people. They wanted to
cater to the environment of the film school and to college students and they had completed their
own studies to incorporate the needs of the area into their project. The challenge for him to have
the project pencil out, and for the owners, Steve and Jessica, to invest the amount of money that
they were in the proposed project, they wanted to have a sense of the difference in their project
to those others in town. Given the nature of the site, it was in an area of transition and there were
plans in the area for mixed use projects and the area in the next five years would be transforming
to a different environment. In looking to the future the urban design of the street would be
enlarging itself to the transit corridor. He wanted to place the proposed project into the context
that was not only to review it from the standpoint of a purely architectural kid of hearts in fitting
the Old Towne Standards, and he felt they had come a long way in pulling off some of the non-
conforming components of the building that had no historical value. He felt there needed to be a
compromise that they had a functional restaurant that opened itself up and had natural light and
ventilation and would secure a future for Steve and Jessica in a successful project.
Mr~ Le Tourneau stated the restaurant needed to take a slightly different approach and the bi-fold
doors could be designed to mimic a traditional door in the closed position and they could even be
a historical door. They were not attempting to modernize the elevation. He had a practice in
New York, which he traveled back and forth to, and there were a number of historical projects in
Soho that utilized bi-fold doors. He was currently enrolled in Columbia Architecture and Design
for his Masters and he had met with the Preservation Dean and they spoke about the nature of bi-
fold doors as a use in the past and it might not have been something the local residential
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 16 of 28
community in Orange would have seen or used, but they had existed in other typologies in
commercial and residential areas. To conclude he was hopeful there would be an adaptive way
to view the project to fit the proposed palette.
Public Comment
None.
Chair McCormack opened the item for discussion.
Committee Member Woollett stated the DRC would need to consider the location of the
restaurant in relationship to the Depot and Old Towne and the fact that the intention was that the
proposed project was not for a residence. He felt that in that area they could severely limit the
use of the building if they would not allow some freedom in the proposed project. He also
understood that they would need to be historically correct in the style, but had not felt the same
constraints if the building were located on Glassell Street or in other parts of Old Towne.
Committee Member Cathcart asked for clarification on the parking spaces.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated in the detached garage there would be spaces for the owners, Steve and
Jessica, and two more employees. They would utilize the existing garage for employee parking
and storage and they would maximize their on-site parking. They had looked at a scheme where
they would demolish the garage to add more parking and it was not a good solution.
Committee Member Cathcart asked how many employees had they anticipated?
Mr. Le Tourneau stated the business would probably start with four and go to six; if it would
become busy they would determine their need as the quantity of people and the load on the
kitchen increased. Four was probably a safe number. There were opportunities to stack the cars
if they were all employees.
Chair McCormack asked if the parking would be screened?
Mr. Le Tourneau stated there would be landscaping, however, not high enough to screen the cars
and he had not felt that parked cars would be a visual nuisance. There were some adjacent
residences and it was not uncommon to have cars parked adjacent to the restaurant.
Chair McCormack asked what the restaurant's capacity would be?
Mr. Le Tourneau stated they were looking at 30 to 35. The exterior portion of the project would
have the most seating capacity. Internally they were looking at 15.
Committee Member Gladson stated she had reviewed the minutes from the preliminary review
and the Committee had concerns with the fenestration. On the bi-fold doors she could borrow a
term from Committee Member Cathcart, she was neither way on it and she was not totally sure if
it was a big issue for her. Obviously with the use of the proposed project and in how to treat the
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 17 of 28
new use, they would require a really big door and it was a big question that they needed to
discuss.
Committee Member Cathcart stated in his own personal view, he envisioned the use of the space
and the bi-fold doors would not bother him. He envisioned the use as being completely
surrounded and over taken by college students, sitting every which way, standing around,
listening to music, drinking a beer and having a sandwich. It would not be a place his parents
would eat at and he perceived the use as it would be. He had not studied it too closely, but that
was his opinion.
Committee Member Wheeler stated from the last review his point had been that they were losing
so much of the fenestration and there was so little of the original elements left. The advantage of
the project was that they would be restoring the porches back to what they had originally been.
The building would loose fenestration; however, gaining something else and it would be a nice
trade off. He thought they should review some of those areas that could be improved to bring it
more in line with the hip roof, classical revival style, or what was known as a four square style,
which had been very common in that area in Old Towne. Regarding the columns, he stated a
huge majority of the classical revival houses in Orange used round columns. There were a few
with slightly tapered or rectangular columns, however, most were round, some were a belly or
cigar band column. He presented samples of the columns that he spoke about and the Committee
Members and applicant reviewed the samples. Committee Member Wheeler stated what the
applicant had proposed was some sort of a rectangular column with plant-ons and he felt that was
not an appropriate style for Old Towne. On the porch structure there was one column that was
full height and the other was rail height and he suggested that both columns be consistent in
height. He had not known of anything like the unbalanced appearance in Old Towne. On the
doors he recommended that they be the same head height as the other doors and have them be
more consistent.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated one of the challenges was fitting the doors under the existing porch
placed them at a very low height for residential. There was an 11' plate on the major rectilinear
portion of the site and a plate height of only 7'6" on the porches and he had not wanted to limit
the height. In walking into the space there was an opportunity to open up the space with larger
taller openings and the differential in head heights had not appeared to him as a mistake.
Committee Member Wheeler stated there was the existing situation currently with differing head
heights so it could be viewed as justifiable. He agreed with Staff that a door he referred to on the
plans should be a 3' door.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated the doors were 3'4", it had been a squatter door and it would not be a
typical entry door. The Old Towne Standards spoke about oversized pronounced entry doors and
having a larger width. It was an entry to a restaurant and they were attempting to strike the fine
line in adapting the site to the new use and getting it up to par to have it be presentable without
completely creating a commercial look. When reviewing the floor plan and converting the
residence to a restaurant it required opening up the site to create a real business out of the site
and the owners would be spending over a half million dollars to create some of those revisions
and they were hesitant to look at some of the other models in the City as they wanted their site to
function as an open unit and be open to the outside. There needed to be a connection from the
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 18 of 28
street all the way in to the back of the restaurant. There could not be walls put up and it was
finding a balance of functionality and keeping some of the key components and architecture
intact. He felt he had created that balance and had given up approximately 220 square feet in
turning the porches back to their original style.
Committee Member Gladson asked if the bi-fold door was consistent with a hip roof cottage?
Committee Member Wheeler stated no.
Committee Member Gladson stated the DRC would decide if that element was so outrageous and
so inappropriate that they would want the applicant to make a change. Possibly they would not
go in that direction. She could probably get comfortable with the bi-fold doors if they were
designed to fit nice and there were benefits to having those doors. She liked everything else she
saw in the proposed project. The DRC was the final determining body on the project and she
was surprised at that; rarely had they done that, there was the parking piece that they had already
spoken about. The site would be sharing the Lemon Street parking lot and it was the same as any
other downtown restaurant. In some point in time the City would need to look at parking.
Committee Member Wheeler stated as the project would not be going before the Planning
Commission he asked the applicant if they intended to serve any alcoholic beverages?
Mr. Le Tourneau stated the owners had not anticipated applying for that component. The focus
would be on good healthy food, and the restaurant would not primarily cater to college students.
The restaurant was extraverted and would be a social gathering and work well on the corner.
They had done quite a bit of research about the area. The bi-fold door was historically on
industrial use buildings and any opened-air shops, markets, and anything that needed those large
openings. They were used in New York and in historical settings. The question was hip roof
cottage; it was a style that they had seen implemented in the City of Orange that carried on a
certain kid of hearts primarily in residences. It forced them to take a look at the project
differently as the proposed project was a different use and there would be some compatibility
issues with placating this kid of hearts with smaller openings for a restaurant. In speaking with
his clients a few days ago they had relayed that they really needed the proposed project to
present itself openly to the community.
Committee Member Wheeler stated bi-fold doors were in no way compatible with a hip roof
cottage and he would be willing to consider that as a special feature that was a very clear
modification to a hip roof cottage. It was a change, but he wanted to keep the structure as close
as they could to the style and to not have so many variations such as the non-symmetrical
columns and if they could improve some of those features he would be willing to go with it as a
special circumstance,
Mr. Ryan stated one of the issues they would need to address was the appropriateness and if they
felt the project complied with the Old Towne and the Secretary of Interior's Standards then they
needed to be very careful in moving in that direction. It was a slippery slope and in making
concessions, they needed to review the fenestrations and the details. There would need to be
some discussions about how the internal and external spaces would function with the bi-fold
doors. If the issue was to bring light into the building there were other ways to accomplish that
with changing doors to windows or adding additional windows. There needed to be a bit more
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 19 of 28
thought in what direction they would need to proceed in, to bring more light in and to not get
away from history. He felt the bi-fold doors could raise some concerns with compliance.
Committee Member Wheeler stated he had not known about anything in the Standards that gave
allowances for deviation when changing the use to a restaurant. They were stuck with the
Standards and the Old Towne Design Guidelines.
Committee Member Gladson stated maybe the Southwest Project Area Guidelines would give
them some sort of "out of jail" card.
Mr. Ryan stated it would not give them too much; the Guidelines stated adaptive use would be
considered.
Committee Member Gladson commented about if there was something that allowed additions;
additions should be connected to the historic building so they could later be removed without
destroying the original material. If windows and doors were taken out, the original materials
were gone. Could they get to a point where those windows and doors could be put back in?
Chair McCormack stated it would not work for the use.
Committee Member Gladson stated if the use would somehow change in the future, possibly
another restaurant could come in and they might not want the bi-fold doors.
Mr. Ryan stated the Standards for contributing residences in the Sante Fe Depot Plan spoke
about all existing architectural and landscape features shall be preserved. All the outside of an
existing house would be reconstructed to match the original and the reconstruction of missing
features shall be based on documentary evidence. That part would not give them much wiggle
room. There might be other ways to bring light in through a dormer or other ways for that
approach.
Committee Member Cathcart stated he had not just looked at it from a standpoint of needing the
doors for light; he felt they wanted to open up the area for inside and outside areas that would
work together.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated bringing more light in was not the issue, it was more of the smell of food
wafting from inside to outside, the clattering of plates, the opening of the spaces to the outdoors
and it was creating the indoor and outdoor areas.
Committee Member Wheeler asked if the applicants had spoken with the Health Department,
When Byblos (Cafe) had gone in on Chapman they originally had put in three sets of French
doors and the Health Department had two of them sealed off, due to flies and a health issue.
They may not allow the openings.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated they had not addressed that yet. There were ways to deal with that with
air screens on the inside and basic adjustments to make the spaces work. There were restaurants
that opened up to the outside and they made it work. They were attempting to do as much as
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 20 of 28
they could to make the project work spatially, The doors would allow the inside to open up
completely to the outside.
Committee Member Woollett stated he agreed with Committee Member Wheelers comments
about the columns and asked the applicant if those were changes he felt could be made?
Mr. Le Tourneau stated previously they had discussed pulling off some of the veneer as that was
a higher end design that was found in communities such as Arcadia where everything was very
opulent; and they had hit on a very good point to use very honest materials and they were
working in Old Towne Orange. Oddly enough he had completed all types of modern and
historic architecture and the columns they suggested were very celebrated columns and quite
opulent and very decorative. The site was not a structure that was trying to be more than it was
and his comment was that he had looked at the suggested columns and felt they were overly
designed and they would bring too much attention to that feature. He wanted a more understated
design. He hesitated getting to more of a round, bellowed, articulate column as a decorative
point and wanted something far more humble.
Committee Member Wheeler stated he was creating something that was not compatible with Old
Towne Orange; it might be something that was compatible with other neighborhoods.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated in Orange there was a very strong detailed core that incorporated the
details that Committee Member Wheeler spoke to, however, when getting to the outskirts of that
core there was a transformation, the designs changed, and the buildings came out of necessity.
They were not designed for the wealthy and the column that was suggested was not very modest.
Committee Member Wheeler stated the columns were a big part of the design statement.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated if they were not going to veneer the concrete in nice stone and brick why
would they want to use more decorative columns and he was looking for some more consistency.
Committee Member Wheeler stated he could design a column that was not so ornate but not as
foreign as a column that he had designed; possibly a simple round column with a simple cap.
Something that made a statement that he appreciated Orange and was not fighting it.
Committee Member Gladson stated in driving down Lemon or Cypress there were homes that
had those elements, the homes were modest and had become more of a Hispanic neighborhood,
more of a barrio. She agreed with the suggestions from Committee Member Wheeler.
Committee Member Wheeler stated he also questioned the use of board-formed concrete. Most
of the City's concrete work was smooth and would not have a lot of weeping joints as noted in
the proposed project,
Chair McCormack stated he really liked the proposed project and he agreed with Committee
Member Cathcart on the bi-fold doors. Although not historic, in their closed position they would
not appear as bi-fold doors and he could get past that because of the change in use of the site. He
had seen some things that were key in making the project work and those were the details. With
the board-form concrete he felt it should match the finish on the walls that already existed. He
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 21 of 28
would want that element to match. One of the things he kept coming back to was how the tread
on the step was only 14" and he had not liked the choppiness of the step and suggested an 18"
step, something that was more generous. An area that could be stood on with deeper treads that
gave a more welcoming feel. He liked what he saw. He could picture someone placing a laptop
on the step and not having it fall off and using that as another seating area.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated he had looked at that quite a bit, with assuring there was enough
circulation space, pod seating, pass through areas and were they taking deck space away.
Chair McCormack stated there was existing shrubs that would remain in a space he pointed to on
the plans. His questions was that there were trees, and obviously the space was 18" higher than
sidewalk grade, and he was seeing a raised platform and he wanted to understand if the space
was being built up with new soil or was it kept at the existing grade with a deck system?
Mr. Le Tourneau stated the area would be an informal surface, there were a couple of restaurants
that, one came to mind Gulf Streams in Newport had a perimeter that used a compacted in-field
baseball type surface.
Chair McCormack stated that was DG. There would be a wall to retain that and a deck platform.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated the grade was set to go along the perimeter wall, it would drop off
slightly. He pointed out the area on the plans where there were slight grade changes.
Chair McCormack stated when everything would be brought to the same elevation there were
walls to retain the gravel and he was hearing that there would be new soil added for the trees. He
was focusing on the details and he asked about the bike racks?
Mr. Le Tourneau stated they would encourage less vehicular traffic and attempt to get the
community involved in biking to the site. He pointed out apass-through entry to the site.
Chair McCormack stated he wanted to have the space be successful. There would need to be
irrigation and how had they proposed to handle drainage off of the roof? They could place
drainage in the DG.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated he believed currently there was not a system in place. They would want
to catch some of the rain, which had not been incorporated in a gutter and down spout system
into their plans. They would probably go with something clean and simple, fairly functional but
concealed. They could tie the downspouts through the deck with some form of sub-system to
handle that.
Chair McCormack stated DG and water had not worked very well together. If they handled the
water to work well off the roof they would not run into a problem with the gravel. He felt the
applicant needed to review the details such as the columns and steps.
Mr. Le Tourneau asked on the columns could they use some type of square column that would
work with the project?
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 22 of 28
Committee Member Wheeler stated the applicant could find examples of some in Old Towne and
he would be willing to consider that as long as it was an original historic design and not
something that had been replicated later.
Committee Member Woollett stated he understood that when they had been speaking about the
entry doors that they had been 3', but he was noticing that they were 4' which was a really wide
door and he suggested moving those down to 3'6".
Committee Member Wheeler stated he would prefer 3' as they were so short.
Committee Member Woollett stated the plans showed 7'. A front door could be larger than 3'.
Mr. Ryan stated he agreed with Committee Member Wheeler that most doors were 3'.
Committee Member Woollett asked if the applicant had given any consideration in using French
doors rather than the bi-fold doors? They could have several pairs of doors to make the opening.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated the use of French doors was in the initial submittal, there were French
doors on those plans and he had gotten his hands slapped.
Mr. Ryan stated they could probably find French doors in Old Towne.
Committee Member Woollett stated it was not unheard of and especially when there was a deck.
It was the side elevation and it was set back.
Mr. Ryan stated there were sliding French doors, that would slide passed each other.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated they had not looked at the multi-slide doors as they looked a bit more
modern when they stacked back. The bi-fold doors could go back in any direction, they could go
three to the left and two to the right or they could all go to one side or the other. The only
difference between the bi-fold and the French doors would be a center column with the French
doors. He would prefer, as they were attempting to create seating and fluidity, the use of bi-fold
doors.
Committee Member Woollett stated they could have the doors going different ways, with leaves
stacking differently.
Chair McCormack asked was the issue that the bi-fold doors were non-historic?
Mr. Ryan stated the issue was the change to the fenestration of the building on the side that was
original.
Committee Member Woollett stated he had not had an issue with that and it had been his opening
comment. He was more concerned with remaining true to the style. The building was located in
a transitional zone and that would give them justification to be true to the style but not to the
existing elements and because of the change in use. He would call the doors multi-fold doors
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 23 of 28
and he had no issue with replacing the windows with doors; he understood not wanting the two
pairs of French doors.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated bi-fold or multi-fold doors were traditional, especially in an area that
was somewhat industrial surrounded by the old rail yard.
Committee Member Wheeler stated he felt it was not justifiable to mix an industrial building
with a house.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated it was about the nostalgia about keeping the historical fabric and staying
true to the typology or thematic architecture; they were not modern doors and that was an
important point.
Chair McCormack stated there had been a comment about the Health Department coming in and
that could mean taking their two hour discussion and just throwing it in the hopper; exploring
what the applicant had proposed was a good idea. At a certain point there was an invention that
made things better and he felt the Health Department might have the trump card on the project.
Committee Member Woollett stated maybe not, as there were many restaurants that had outside
eating areas.
Committee Member Wheeler stated yes, but they had no large openings between the inside and
outside.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated there were many restaurants that had the element.
Committee Member Woollett stated he felt it was an issue of where the food was prepared and
not where it would be eaten.
Chair McCormack stated he had been at an event where there was a roll up door, and when the
door was open it appeared to just go away. He had seen examples of very nicely done doors of
that type.
Committee Member Wheeler stated certainly that was not appropriate to a restaurant.
Chair McCormack stated the idea was to provide openness. It was not historic and that was the
issue.
Mr. Ryan stated there were some issues that needed to be looked at; studying the columns,
having or not having side lights, changing the door dimensions, changing the board form
concrete to more historic finish and then re-studying the door opening area to find an element
that was more historic and finding a solution to address all of that.
Chair McCormack stated the use would justify the solution.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 24 of 28
Mr. Ryan stated they had to deal with the design standards. The use was not an issue; the issue
was how to maintain the existing fenestration. Certainly they could look at door treatments that
were more historic and felt the proposed project needed more work.
Committee Member Wheeler suggested having the windows match the treatment on the existing
windows and to add that detail to the plans.
Committee Member Gladson stated there were some elements that were not completely nailed
down and she would be inclined to allow the applicant to have some more time to work the
details out. She would not be comfortable to make a final action. To allow the applicant a
chance to nail everything down and to possibly find out if there would be a problem with the
Health Department. She had not wanted to be too troubled by that as she wanted to focus on the
design. She generally liked where the project was going and she appreciated having the entire
space be commercial.
Chair McCormack stated in his quest to review more detail he agreed with Committee Member
Gladson. He would also like to see the landscape element that would be a significant element to
the use. They had previously spoken about Lemon and Maple trees and he had not felt that those
types of trees were needed, and they could suggest other plantings. The character of the building
would be with the openness and how inviting it would be.
Mr. Ryan asked with the two porches would that balance out the issue with the fenestration and
the doors?
Committee Member Wheeler stated there was a trade off and they were gaining something with
the addition of the porches and he would concede finding something special about the doors,
although they would not be compatible with Old Towne, as long as they were a form that was
found in Old Towne.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated he mainly practiced in New York and asked if there was a way to
resubmit the drawings with some sort of condition of approval? They had discussed columns,
treads, defining the trees, the side lights and getting the doors correct, he wanted to understand
the next step?
Chair McCormack stated the property owner could return with those changes. The DRC wanted
the proposed project to do well.
Mr. Ryan stated he could also be included in discussions with the property owners to give them
insight in what direction they needed to go.
The Committee Members reviewed the suggestions and recommendations with the applicant.
Mr. Le Tourneau stated on the concrete he had wanted to add something due to the pour line and
that was why he had suggested another treatment to the face of it. He wondered if they would
have a problem with a joint line on the concrete wall?
Committee Member Wheeler stated they might want to emphasize the joint line.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 25 of 28
Chair McCormack stated those lines should have some meaning, where things would line up at.
He would also want to see a lighting plan.
Committee Member Woollett made a motion to continue DRC No. 4411-09, Freebird Cafe, with
the suggestions and recommendations provided to the applicant.
SECOND: Adrienne Gladson
AYES: Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Joe Woollett, Craig Wheeler
NOES: None
ABSTAIN: None
ABSENT: None
MOTION CARRIED.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 26 of 28
New Agenda Items:
4) DRC No. 4426-09 - SPIC `N' SPAN CLEANERS -SIGN PROGRAM
A proposal for a sign program for a commercial cleaner.
201 W. Chapman Avenue, Old Towne Historic District
Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, 714-744-7224, dryanncityoforange.org
DRC Action: Final Determination
Committee Member Wheeler was recused from the presentation of the item due to the proximity
of the project to his business address.
Historic Preservation Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff
Report.
Applicant, Gilbert Hwang, stated basically Staff had wanted to reduce the length of the sign and
he felt it would be too narrow and the letters would look weird. He wanted to keep the 26'
length.
Public Comment
None.
Chair McCormack opened the item for discussion.
Committee Member Woollett stated the Staff analysis was very thorough and complete. He was
prepared to accept the project.
Chair McCormack stated he liked the project and he asked for clarification on the letter size.
Mr. Ryan stated it was to reduce the letter size to comply with code, otherwise a variance would
be required to exceed the 20'. The letter style was fine, the size just needed to be modified.
Committee Member Gladson asked about the blade sign. Was it not calculated into the sign
area? She asked for clarification on that element. She liked the blade sign and thought it was a
nice element. She appreciated the metal letters and the color palette.
Mr. Ryan stated on a business that was wanting to install a new blade sign they would calculate
that area and add it, the existing blade sign could remain and exceed the square footage. Because
of the building orientation, the overall sign area was way under the maximum signage area. One
of the other issues was that most businesses would want some vehicular signage and that gave a
good vehicular view. The blade sign gave good visibility.
Committee Member Cathcart stated it really cleaned up that corner; he liked the project and
thought it was very nice.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 27 of 28
Applicant, Miuk Chu, address on file, passed out a sample of the letter material that would be
used. She stated they would have the letters reduced in proportion to the reduction in the sign
length and the letter styles would remain the same.
Chair McCormack made a motion to approve DRC No. 4426-09, Spic `N' Span Cleaners-Sign
Program, with the conditions contained in the Staff Report and with the following modification:
1. To have the Cleaner's lettering be 15" and the Spic `N' Span lettering to be 12" high to
fit into the 20" sign length.
SECOND:Joe Woollett
AYES:Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Joe Woollett
NOES:None
ABSTAIN:None
ABSENT:None
RECUSED:Craig Wheeler
MOTION CARRIED.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009
Page 28 of 28
ADJOURNMENT:
Committee Member Wheeler made a motion to adjourn to the next regular scheduled meeting on
July 15, 2009 at 5:00 p.m. The meeting adjourned at 8:35 p.m.
SECOND:Joe Woollett
AYES:Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett
NOES:None
ABSTAIN:None
ABSENT:Bill Cathcart
MOTION CARRIED.