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07-01-2009 DRC MinutesCITY OF ORANGE DESIGN REVIEW COMMITTEE MINUTES -FINAL July 1, 2009 Committee Members Present: Bill Cathcart Adrienne Gladson Tim McCormack Craig Wheeler Joe Woollett Committee Members Absent: None Staff in Attendance: Leslie Aranda Roseberry, Planning Manager Dan Ryan, Historic Preservation Planner Anna Pehoushek, Principal Planner Sandi Dimick, Recording Secretary Administrative Session - 5:00 P.M. The Committee met for an Administrative Session beginning at 5:05 p.m. Vice Chair Gladson opened the Administrative Session with any information from Staff. Planning Manager, Leslie Aranda Roseberry, stated there were no changes to the agenda or there was no policy or procedural information. Principal Planner, Anna Pehoushek, was present to continue the discussion regarding the General Plan. Ms. Pehoushek stated she would recap the Natural Resources element which pertained to all things related to water and air quality, parks and recreation, and visual and aesthetic resources. The policy language was related to those topics. The Natural Resources component had discussion pertaining to energy conservation and green building and also the relationship between development and climate change. Staff focused not only on the energy efficiency aspects of green development, but also an overall look at sustainability, which included site permeability, vegetation, landscaping, and building orientation. It was the first time anything of that nature had been included in the City's General Plan and would take them in a direction that the State of California was taking. It was the wave of the future and the language that was included was not very intense or binding. Committee Member Woollett stated those aspects of the plan could be huge for the DRC. He asked if the language was not very binding why was it included; were those components to remind people that Staff felt those issues were important, however, they had not planned to do anything about them? Ms. Pehoushek stated the intent was not to act on it; it was an issue that City Council had been very clear on. City Council had not necessarily subscribed to the philosophy that climate change was an issue and they had not wanted the City to mandate that building should occur in a specific manner. As green thinking and green development evolved in the State and through the building codes, those components gave Staff a framework to build on. Should they become more City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 2 of 28 aggressive or they wanted to work more closely with a developer, it gave them tools to work with. Currently they would not have the right to bring up that discussion. Committee Member Woollen asked with the new components would that give them the right to bring about that discussion? Ms. Pehoushek stated yes, they could then refer to the General Plan and something that had been identified as something the City was working toward in future developments and would justify discussion. The development of the General Plan Natural Resources component was being worked on while the City was working on the Orange Goes Green program. There was language in the implementation and mitigation agreement that was a little more aggressive than City Council would like them to be in establishing thresholds for residential or commercial developments and linking those thresholds to energy efficiency or site improvements. As a result they would be softening up the language that had been sent out in some of the public review documents and to still meet the intent of those measures that were identified. Staff was repackaging the specifics into making a commitment to develop a climate action plan within 12 months of adoption of the General Plan and that would be where all the tools would be included. She hoped to be a bit more direct about the plan, but it was the reality of the environment they had to work within. Committee Member Woollen stated it sounded as if the City Council wanted a pat on the back for thinking green, but had not wanted any criticism for requiring them to do anything. Ms. Pehoushek stated she looked at the plan as a platform for discussion with developers and it gave Staff something to work with. As the subject evolved there would be more clarity in the direction from the State and the requirements specific to building codes. Committee Member Woollen stated the building codes were very specific in California and they were some of the toughest codes in the country. It was nice to put it all down; however, it would be the codes that would be used. Ms. Pehoushek stated in working with an applicant and encouraging that applicant to get a more green design they would have a platform for that discussion beyond the building codes. Once they saw the Climate Action Plan that would help and there would be development of design guidelines for different things with one being green design guidelines. They were attempting to look at it from an interdisciplinary standpoint, not only from an aesthetic standpoint, but also from the NPDES, which was a tool that was looked at more seriously on how sites were designed. Committee Member Woollen stated if there was a rain water collection system in a project to reuse that water, quite often the water company resisted that idea as the water was not going into the ground to be sold back to the user. Vice Chair Gladson stated there were many different nuisances to green policies that had not been worked out and her sense was the Natural Resource component was a starting point for the City of Orange to get the discussion going. She felt the development world was already on board City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 3 of 28 with much of it and thinking LEED or some other strategy that was economically smart. It was good business sense to think that way. Ms. Pehoushek stated it would assist them. Vice Chair Gladson stated the implementation would require a lot more. Ms. Pehoushek stated the community philosophy was not up to where the planning and design world was. Vice Chair Gladson stated she could appreciate where City Council was on the issue and it was a matter of getting them to understand that it was not so scary. Ms. Pehoushek stated they were not totally engaged in the larger movement. People looked at it differently. Other aspects of the Natural Resource element would involve the parks and recreation areas and the amount of park space provided. There were also components that looked at Santiago Creek and developing it as more of a recreational resource. Through the capacity that the DRC would review CIP projects and trail projects there was language that spoke about the relationship of new development along the creek and to not have new development turn their back on the creek, but to incorporate it as an amenity. Cultural Resources was another area that the DRC dealt with; in the past it was the Historic Preservation element. Staff was suggesting a name change to Cultural Resources to have it be a bit more encompassing and she felt it would ultimately be called Historic Preservation and Cultural Resources element. Currently the preservation element focused on Old Towne and the buildings of Old Towne and once outside of Old Towne there was not much guidance on what to do when encountering different conditions and those historic buildings outside of Old Towne. Part of the renaming would be to look at cultural resources in a broader citywide manner, some of the archeological resources, and also looking at the library services in the City as a tool kit for the City. The policy focus was architecture and community character, preservation of Old Towne, incentives and education, library services, and looking beyond Old Towne. Staff had looked at attempting to capture the Eichler tracts and setting the framework and designating that tract as their own historic district. Committee Member Woollett asked if that had been discussed with City Council? Ms. Pehoushek stated they were aware of it; they had been briefed and there had not been any negative reaction. The community itself had provided a lot of positive feedback from the Eichler community and it appeared to be well received. There were a few areas of the City, El Modena, the Cypress barrio area, and the rail corridor that ran through Old Towne and outside of Old Towne. They were looking at a new tool called the Neighborhood Character area where the buildings would not fall within a historic district, but there was enough of the historic buildings remaining and the feel of an area to what it had been back in the day that there could be an establishment of this Neighborhood Character overlay accompanied with some design guidelines so that new development would mimic the forms and site layouts of what had been there historically. The intent would be to have new development be more compatible with what remained with the old fabric. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 4 of 28 Committee Member Wheeler suggested that the in-fill guidelines were being used as a tool that was effective. Committee Member Woollett stated the only thing that bothered him was that the barrio areas were not viewed with much joy and it seemed to him that it was a real mine field to attempt to hold onto something just because it was old. When would a resource become a cultural resource instead of just a decrepit part of town? They had dealt with that in Old Towne where some of the old buildings were so poorly built, such as the single wall constructed buildings, and some of those buildings were barely habitable. When Perez decided it was a good idea to pave the streets in El Modena, the cultural resource was lost, dirt streets. He wondered where it would lead them? Ms. Pehoushek stated the Cultural Resource element guidelines would not be as strict as the Old Towne standards; they would be more in line with the in-fill guidelines and provide a bit more specific guidance and paved the way for improvements. It would be identified as part of a future plan to establish neighborhood character areas and appropriate guidelines for future change to those areas. There would not be specific guidelines for building material or window types; it would be broader in regard to building forms and massing features. Chair McCormack arrived to join the discussion and stated those would be guidelines and not standards. Ms. Pehoushek stated that was correct. Committee Member Woollett stated even the Eichlers' had some significant design flaws. For instance, they would run smack up against the energy green guidelines. There were walls of glass on the south sides of those buildings with no protection and that took you as far away from a green building as one could get. If those would be a cultural resource they could not be changed. Committee Member Gladson stated the nice part of the policy tool would be that the implementation would have a public participation component as a sub-goal. To ask the immediate neighborhood such as El Modena or the Cypress barrio, which she appreciated Committee Member Woollett's observation, and 20 years ago those neighborhoods had not necessarily cared about their little niche, but she felt that had changed. If those neighborhoods wanted to organize and go to City Council to have their own community character with some specific goal, she felt it would be an appropriate thing to do for that neighborhood. Ms. Pehoushek stated all those things lead to the implementation and community input and certainly any implementation that involved developing, design guidelines, standards, or street scape would be very intensive and have interactive experiences with the community and with the DRCe Chair McCormack stated with those areas it was eclectic, if they would apply certain street scapes and design standards it would not appear as it had today. It was as if there were no rules and that was where the charm came from. He would not want guidelines on those areas to limit those areas. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 5 of 28 Ms. Pehoushek stated there would need to be some protection in place for some of those areas. They had not gotten to that level of detail, and it could be that after they explored it there might not be much support for it and then it would be removed from the list. Committee Member Gladson stated she was pleased that there would be that component for the Eichler tract and with the look toward other areas. Ms. Pehoushek stated they had heard from the community that Orange was much more than just Old Towne. There was the Urban Design piece which was completely new and focused on the major commercial corridors of the City of Orange. They had viewed the commercial corridors as an area to move traffic and had not looked at the streets in a manner beyond that. They were looking at development on those streets, creating an attractive area to do business, landscape and to look at it as a bigger package with its relationship to the street and those buildings on it. There was a pedestrian connection, street environment, business environment, and economic development tool and pulling all those components together in communicating an impression of what the City of Orange was. When entering Orange was it obvious that it was a different community that people noticed they were entering? That thought would force them to view what they would be doing to the streets in a more deliberate manner. There were major boulevards that ran through Orange and into other major regional connections and they had not treated them with any special handling. That would be the policy focus. In terms of the Urban Design plan they would be looking at enhancing a total boulevard image and what those areas provided for pedestrian access, public transit, and the movement of traffic. Staff would revisit the existing design standards, such as the Southwest Design guidelines, Tustin and El Modena Design guidelines to ascertain if they were still useful in their current form, would they need freshening up or would they require new guidelines -something new and different, something more representative of where they wanted to go. Staff would be reviewing Tustin, Chapman, and Main, but also Lincoln Avenue which was a corridor that had not gotten much attention and thinking a bit more closely about Katella. There was a component in reviewing treatment of gateways to the community and visual landmarks, such as the Selman Chevrolet sign or the flag pole at Town and Country and had they wanted to do more to memorialize those things that people identified with Orange. There would also be discussion in raising the community expectations for design quality in the community. Chair McCormack stated there were all the other design standards that were fairly similar, it was almost as if there would be an element that needed to be focused on to bring out the character. The standards all seemed to be the same and Cities worked from those and they all appeared to be the same. Ms. Pehoushek stated they had heard loud and clear that Orange was a distinctive community and they had not wanted to mimic other communities but to create something that was organically Orange, whatever that might be. Something that captured the essence of what Orange was and one of the charms of the City was its diversity and what made it what it was. Chair McCormack stated he had worked on Ventura Blvd. that went through Encino, Sherman Oaks, and Tarzana, and it was interesting when moving through that area that it was evident when you were in Sherman Oaks, and in Tarzana, which was named after Tarzan, but you knew when you were in Tarzana because of the tropical and flowery nature of the landscape. That was City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 6 of 28 an iconic treatment of a very long boulevard that had a distinct sense of those specific communities. Encino looked different from Sherman Oaks. Committee Member Cathcart stated along that same line was to place a priority on pedestrian friendly areas and to place some type of separator from traffic so people felt comfortable. Another point being, would the area be commercial friendly? Would the trees be placed in a manner as to not block the view of the business signage? There were all kinds of conflicting priorities. Ms. Pehoushek replied that if a nice enough of an environment was created people would know what businesses were there and some of the most desirable business communities had very small signs. They would explore what the answer was for Orange and to strike that balance. Committee Member Gladson stated the exciting part of that was it asked for integration of all of those things and nothing existed in isolation, to pick the best pieces and the best approach and to think of the big picture. Ms. Pehoushek stated she was gathering information on legislation that was the Complete Streets Act that would lend more insight. Committee Member Gladson stated they spoke about that when reviewing the CHOC hospital expansion project and how they dealt with the urban aspects of Main and La Veta, this would provide a tool to look at those issues. She would want to have those elements shared with the DRC in the future and it would not occur over night and the expenses involved would be great. Chair McCormack stated there would need to be areas identified that required traffic calming. The City of Orange's concept was how to get traffic through and once that concept was dealt with everything would change. Ms. Pehoushek stated it would be a very big shift in thinking; they were currently talking about medians on South Main Street as part of the street widening and that was the first time in the last 10 years that it had been on the radar screen. It was a change, a slow evolution, and the plan went to 2030 as nothing would happen over night. She stated they were completing the responses to comments on the EIR for the General Plan and targeting an August 3, 2009 date for the first Planning Commission presentation and then the adoption process would go from there. Hopefully by November there would be an adopted General Plan. Committee Member Gladson asked if the Urban Design plan would be brought to the DRC? Ms. Pehoushek stated when the implementation components were presented they would want that feedback from DRC. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 7 of 28 Committee Member Woollett made a motion to adjourn the Administrative Session. SECOND: Bill Cathcart AYES: Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Joe Woollett, Craig Wheeler NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. Administrative Session adjourned at 5: 40 p.m. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 8 of 28 Regular Session - 5:30 P.M. ROLL CALL: All Committee Members were present. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION: Opportunity for members of the public to address the Design Review Committee on matters not listed on the Agenda. There was none. CONSENT ITEMS: All matters that are announced as Consent Items are considered to be routine by the Design Review Committee and will be enacted by one motion. There will be no separate discussion of said items unless members of the Design Review Committee, staff or the public request specific items to be removed from the Consent Items for separate action. The approval of minutes was moved to the end of the agenda. Committee Member Cathcart was recused from the review of the minutes as he had been absent from both the June 3, 2009 and June 17, 2009 Design Review Committee Meetings. 1) APPROVAL OF MINUTES: a) June 3, 2009 b) June 17, 2009 Committee Member Gladson made a motion to approve the minutes from the regular Design Review Committee Meetings of June 3, 2009 and June 17, 2009 with the corrections and changes noted. SECOND:Craig Wheeler AYES:Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Joe Woollett, Craig Wheeler NOES:None ABSTAIN:None ABSENT:None RECUSED:Bill Cathcart MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 9 of 28 AGENDA ITEMS: Continued Items: 2) DRC No. 4421-09 - EHLEN & GROTE FACADE RENOVATION A proposal for a facade renovation to the contributing Ehlen & Grote commercial building, which fronts on Glassell and Plaza Square. 110 S. Glassell and 40-42 Plaza Square, Plaza Historic District Staff Contact: Dan Ryan, 714-744-7224, dryan(a~,cityoforange.org No Quorum" from the June 17, 2009 DRC Meeting DRC Action: Recommendation to the Planning Commission Chair McCormack and Committee Member Wheeler were recused from the presentation due to conflicts of interest. Historic Preservation Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, Doug Ely, address on file, stated they would be preparing smock-up of the actual glass and installation that would be used to present to the DRC. The building was built in 1909 and they had received quite an education on the prism glass. The glass had thrown light that would hit it at an angle directly back and it was prior to the invention of electrical lighting. He and his associates had been exploring a number of different ways to recreate the glass as they were unable to restore the entire area. The re-creation process was that they had found a manufacturer back east that could manufacture the prism glass and a local artisan that would be able to put them together in a leaded glass frame. They were in the process of gathering that pricing that was anticipated to be unaffordable. They had found other ways to create a similar affect. They had initially approached the concept by mounting the glass to an opaque painted surface; however, due to Tiffany Nunley's work, they were currently pursuing installing translucent glass. Many of the tenants had boxed-in store fronts and there would not be much to view behind the glass; however, in using the original material it was the best attempt at recreating what had originally existed. They had previously presented Reed Glass that they could obtain in large sheets which could be adhered to another sheet of tinted glass. They would not proceed on anything until it was presented to the DRC. They only had about 2 ''/z" of space from the brick to the steel retrofitted area and it limited the size of frame they would be able to use. Mr. Ely stated he wanted to clarify some of the comments from the Staff Report. Initially, the windows that they were seeking to recreate would be metal; the Staff Report noted wood. He had not believed the frames had ever been wood. The other issue he wanted to address was that of the awnings; he had been the architect involved with the building at North Glassell and they had been required to install retractable awnings. They had a hard time locating a crafts person who could build the framing and they were cost-prohibitive. Mr. Ryan had noted that EMT was in place and that had been added later for lighting purposes; the original frame had not been City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 10 of 28 EMT. They had researched the retractable awnings and through historical photos they had gone away fairly quickly. The retractable awnings had not done well over time; they bunched up when retracted and in later years they were on rollers. When the awning came out they just flopped in the wind. When he had installed the retractable-type awnings on a previous project, during the first wind storm the awnings were ripped right off. If they wanted the building owner to roll them up every night it was probably not going to happen. They became impractical during the historical evolution. Mr. Ely stated he had walked around Old Towne and he could not find a really good example of what he thought the DRC and Staff would want in retractable awnings. There was "S"-type, where the pins were pulled and some bolts removed and the awning would collapse against the building. If Staff wanted the retractable awnings recreated because that was what the building had, he had evidence of the changes that had occurred over time. He presented photo evidence of the changes in the awning styles and types over the years. He wanted the option to replace the awnings in rigid frames that would secure well to the building. If they were retractable they would never be retracted, unless the wind would rip them off and that became a moot point. Committee Member Woollett asked if it was possible to have a retractable awning that the wind would not rip off? Mr. Ely stated not with a retractable type. He could not guarantee that a fixed awning would not get ripped off in a strong wind. Applicant, Tiffany Nunley, address on file, presented some additional photos and sample drawings of awnings. The Committee Members reviewed the samples. Mr. Ely presented color samples that they proposed for the building. He explained that the top of the building had a metal top area and he explained how the color palette would work. There would be a yellow accent color used. The awnings would be a wine color and he presented a sample to the Committee Members. The Committee Members reviewed the color samples with the applicant. He stated that his clients wanted to restore the building for the sake of restoration and it was not tied to a new tenant coming in, it was the desire to bring it back to what it was. He had met with the City's Economic Development Department and hoped to get some assistance with the facade improvements. Public Comment None. Vice Chair Gladson opened the item for discussion. Committee Member Woollett stated he liked what the applicants were doing and commended them for their efforts. It was being done carefully. He wanted to understand what they were going to be doing with the glass and he asked if the DRC would have an opportunity to review something at a later date? Mr. Ely stated he would be obtaining amock-up of the actual glass installation and that would be brought back to the DRC for their review. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 11 of 28 Ms. Nunley stated they wanted to replace the leaded glass with an exact match, however, they had done a study in the 1990's and it was cost-prohibitive, and there were very few artists that had the skills for that application. They would attempt to match it as closely as possible. Committee Member Woollett asked if there were steel-framed windows in an area he pointed to on the plans? Mr. Ely stated those were existing steel frames and they would be painted yellow. The door was close to what the door would end up being on the Glassell side, it was a wood door. There was exterior grade plywood with some detail that went around an area he pointed to on the plans. Back in the early 1990's when the building had been seismically upgraded, vertical steel columns were installed and they were boxed in with plywood with a trim around it; they proposed to paint those the same color of the area around it to have them disappear. Mr. Ryan stated on the Plaza side the metal doors would be replaced with wood. Mr~ Ely stated that was correct. Vice Chair Gladson stated on the retractable awning issue she wanted to discuss that a bit more. Mr. Ryan thanked Mr. Ely for providing the photos and pointed out on the photos how the shadows had increased, and the store fronts became darker with the change in natural lighting. Mr. Ely stated they were looking at a photo that had a building facing due east and those awnings would always be there; if he suggested that the store front would be lightened up by removing the awnings it would not happen. Ms. Nunley stated the awning designs changed, they had been phased out and brought back based on the nature of what they could and could not do. There were awnings currently on the building that had been approved in the 1990's. Mr. Ryan stated he had not remembered much of a discussion back then. Ms. Nunley stated the awnings served as a safety feature. There were tenants upstairs with windows and anything that would fall would be protected. Vice Chair Gladson stated generally she concurred with the comments from her colleagues and the applicant should be commended for their efforts. She had not found too many issues with the design. It was compliant with the Old Towne Standards and the Secretary of Interior's Standards. When something was being recreated they would look to recreating it as closely as they could. Regarding the glass, she suggested that the applicant look into replicating the leaded glass first and if that could not be done to choose an alternative and she supported that. She felt the trims and design of the building were very strong features and removing inappropriate stuff was well over due. She liked the glazing on the building. She wanted the applicant to keep the retractable awnings and agreed with Staff. Personally she felt the awnings were an addition for sun coverage and the building looked good with them or without them. She had hoped the City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 12 of 28 applicant would make a real good faith attempt to accomplish installation of retractable awnings. If it was cost-prohibitive, she understood. The color scheme had not given her any heartburn. Committee Member Cathcart stated the philosophical viewpoint of the applicant was just as important as what they were looking at. They had something special and he liked the idea of replicating what was there. He had an office in that area for 40 years and during the retrofit there were elements that were changed and he leaned to the applicant to try to replicate the transom and on the collapsible awnings he was neither hot or cold, if they could be replicated that would be nice, however, he would not want a bunch of junk hanging from the front of the building. Some of the old photos showed the retractable awnings that bunched up and became very dirty. If the applicant could find retractable awnings that would handle those issues he was fine with that. It was his feeling that retractable awnings would not need to be part of the solution. He liked the color choices and he was in support of the proposed project. Committee Member Woollett stated he felt the color choices were excellent and he liked the tie in with the glass. His office had been on the Plaza facing east and the sun in the mornings could be devastating and they had to be protected from that side. With blinds inside the heat came in and stayed in; if the blinds were outside the heat stayed out. He felt the awnings were necessary. There were better materials available now. There were things done in the past that were not very good and they needed to strike a compromise. Vice Chair Gladson stated she could make another plea for the retractable awnings; they were a big part of the element of the commercial corridor. There were awnings that went in and out based on the movement of the sun. Committee Member Woollett stated his point was that the awnings would never be retracted, and just because they retracted was an irrelevant issue. Vice Chair Gladson stated she understood his point. It would be nice to have the element present. Committee Member Woollett asked for the purpose of being able to view a bar and a hinge? Vice Chair Gladson stated yes, to be able to have a sense of how it operated and functioned. If she was hearing correctly, she could lose her point, but she still felt that it was something she wanted to see. It was obviously a feature that was in their past. They opened and closed and the merchants probably rolled them out at 9:00 a.m. and rolled them up at 5:00 p.m. and there was a romance to that. She thought it was a neat element and she was probably in the minority, but she could probably live with fixed awnings. She wanted the applicant to attempt to pursue retractable awnings. Committee Member Woollett stated back in the early years when lighting wasn't what it currently was, prism glass really worked to bring light into the building. In the morning hours when the sun struck the glass it brought light into the store and the awnings kept the direct light out of the lower windows. In the afternoon without any east light shining on the prism glass the awnings could be retracted to let the ambient light in. He could understand why there would be motivation to retract the awning to allow other light in. Without the prism glass and the direct City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 13 of 28 lighting coming from the east there was not that situation. In the past there was a motivation for retracting the awnings, to have more light in the afternoon. The situation would no longer exist as there would be no light from the prism glass and that meant the only light would be direct light blazing through the clear glass in the morning. The building would be dependent on electric light in the afternoon and it was highly unlikely that anyone would turn the electric lights off in the afternoon in order to retract the awnings. Mr. Ryan stated another thing was to find something that worked with in-kind materials if it was available. In the last two storefront restorations there were retractable awnings required as part of the approval, and it was a direction they would need to look at. He felt they had an opportunity to examine the use of retractable awnings. Mr. Ely stated they had gone through an exhaustive effort on the corner project and they had only been able to locate one contractor that could custom build retractable awnings and it was a contractor that had worked on Main Street in Disneyland. The awnings in Disneyland were never retracted. Per the requirement they proceeded with the retractable awnings, the benefit of that type of awning was that they could be retracted, however, for the most part that was never necessary. In looking at old buildings there were not frames on the awnings and they just flapped in the breeze. It was true there was a romance to them and if it was found that there was a retractable awning that was easy to produce and would fit their ability to have them constructed they would consider that. Committee Member Woollett stated he was involved in the sale of a relative's condo in Santa Barbara and she had an awning on the west side of the house that was electrically operated. Mr. Ely stated they had looked at that type of awning, however, when the awnings were retracted the housing unit was very large and it became a design problem. The arms of those units looked very contemporary. It would solve the retractable situation, but added non-historic features that would detract from the historic character. Ms. Nunley stated their desire was to find an awning that closely matched a retractable awning but was not retractable. They had no desire to create a contemporary element. Committee Member Woollett asked if the awnings would have open sides? Mr. Ely stated no, some had open sides, but the awnings on their building did not have them. Vice Chair Gladson stated she would encourage a bit more homework on finding another contractor or expert that could recreate retractable awnings. She wanted an attempt made and she would be inclined to not remove that condition, but allow the applicant to pursue that option more as a recommendation or a suggestion. If it was not at all feasible then to return and install fixed awnings. She agreed with Staff that there had been a desire to be consistent in the request for retractable awnings. Committee Member Cathcart stated he held the position that the architect could continue to research retractable awnings, but not ad nauseam. There had to be a point where they had completed their exhaustive study and they had found them or had not, and from a personal City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 14 of 28 standpoint having worked on the Plaza project for 18 months they had not taken the Plaza back to its roots. The City looked at some projects from one time frame and the next project from another time frame, and he thought a precedent had been set that the City was nostalgic about certain aspects, but schizophrenic on others and he suggested the philosophy of the architect was to take the building back to the romantic roots if they could. He gave them all the credit for attempting that, and he would not want to make a recommendation that they would need to install retractable awnings, he would not want to go there. Committee Member Woollett made a motion to recommend approval to the Planning Commission of DRC No. 4421-09, Ehlen & Grote Facade Renovation, with the conditions contained in the Staff Report and with an exception to change the word "provide" to the word recommends" historically retractable awnings, and that the building color and awning fabric colors to be approved as submitted. SECOND: Bill Cathcart AYES: Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None RECUSED: Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 15 of 28 3) DRC No. 4411-09 - FREEBIRD CAFE A proposal to convert amulti-unit contributing residence into a 1,300 sq. ft. restaurant. Project includes awrap-around deck and stairs with 1,173 sq. ft. of outdoor dining area. 193 N. Lemon Street, Old Towne Historic District Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, 714-744-7224, drvan(cr~,cityoforange.org Preliminary Review from the March 4, 2009 DRC Meeting DRC Action: Final Determination Historic Preservation Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Reports Applicant, Chris Le Tourneau, address on file, stated they had gone through the proposed project and had received some good feedback last go around, and Committee Member Wheeler's architectural suggestions were quite helpful. He had gone back and modified the trellis, created a more traditional column, and produced a more accurate existing floor plan. One of the challenges was the amount of fenestration maintained and the large size openings they proposed. It had much to do with the anticipated use of the building. It had worked well with the existing openings as a residence; however, the use was being changed and necessitated the changes to the typology of the building. There had been many examples in the City of Orange where residences had been converted to restaurants, and with certain types of restaurants it worked with those places that were more introverted and that wanted to keep that cozy feeling. They also wanted to create that warmth and comfort, but they also wanted to adapt the use to a multiple demographic use and to a more social atmosphere that would engage larger groups of people. They wanted to cater to the environment of the film school and to college students and they had completed their own studies to incorporate the needs of the area into their project. The challenge for him to have the project pencil out, and for the owners, Steve and Jessica, to invest the amount of money that they were in the proposed project, they wanted to have a sense of the difference in their project to those others in town. Given the nature of the site, it was in an area of transition and there were plans in the area for mixed use projects and the area in the next five years would be transforming to a different environment. In looking to the future the urban design of the street would be enlarging itself to the transit corridor. He wanted to place the proposed project into the context that was not only to review it from the standpoint of a purely architectural kid of hearts in fitting the Old Towne Standards, and he felt they had come a long way in pulling off some of the non- conforming components of the building that had no historical value. He felt there needed to be a compromise that they had a functional restaurant that opened itself up and had natural light and ventilation and would secure a future for Steve and Jessica in a successful project. Mr~ Le Tourneau stated the restaurant needed to take a slightly different approach and the bi-fold doors could be designed to mimic a traditional door in the closed position and they could even be a historical door. They were not attempting to modernize the elevation. He had a practice in New York, which he traveled back and forth to, and there were a number of historical projects in Soho that utilized bi-fold doors. He was currently enrolled in Columbia Architecture and Design for his Masters and he had met with the Preservation Dean and they spoke about the nature of bi- fold doors as a use in the past and it might not have been something the local residential City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 16 of 28 community in Orange would have seen or used, but they had existed in other typologies in commercial and residential areas. To conclude he was hopeful there would be an adaptive way to view the project to fit the proposed palette. Public Comment None. Chair McCormack opened the item for discussion. Committee Member Woollett stated the DRC would need to consider the location of the restaurant in relationship to the Depot and Old Towne and the fact that the intention was that the proposed project was not for a residence. He felt that in that area they could severely limit the use of the building if they would not allow some freedom in the proposed project. He also understood that they would need to be historically correct in the style, but had not felt the same constraints if the building were located on Glassell Street or in other parts of Old Towne. Committee Member Cathcart asked for clarification on the parking spaces. Mr. Le Tourneau stated in the detached garage there would be spaces for the owners, Steve and Jessica, and two more employees. They would utilize the existing garage for employee parking and storage and they would maximize their on-site parking. They had looked at a scheme where they would demolish the garage to add more parking and it was not a good solution. Committee Member Cathcart asked how many employees had they anticipated? Mr. Le Tourneau stated the business would probably start with four and go to six; if it would become busy they would determine their need as the quantity of people and the load on the kitchen increased. Four was probably a safe number. There were opportunities to stack the cars if they were all employees. Chair McCormack asked if the parking would be screened? Mr. Le Tourneau stated there would be landscaping, however, not high enough to screen the cars and he had not felt that parked cars would be a visual nuisance. There were some adjacent residences and it was not uncommon to have cars parked adjacent to the restaurant. Chair McCormack asked what the restaurant's capacity would be? Mr. Le Tourneau stated they were looking at 30 to 35. The exterior portion of the project would have the most seating capacity. Internally they were looking at 15. Committee Member Gladson stated she had reviewed the minutes from the preliminary review and the Committee had concerns with the fenestration. On the bi-fold doors she could borrow a term from Committee Member Cathcart, she was neither way on it and she was not totally sure if it was a big issue for her. Obviously with the use of the proposed project and in how to treat the City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 17 of 28 new use, they would require a really big door and it was a big question that they needed to discuss. Committee Member Cathcart stated in his own personal view, he envisioned the use of the space and the bi-fold doors would not bother him. He envisioned the use as being completely surrounded and over taken by college students, sitting every which way, standing around, listening to music, drinking a beer and having a sandwich. It would not be a place his parents would eat at and he perceived the use as it would be. He had not studied it too closely, but that was his opinion. Committee Member Wheeler stated from the last review his point had been that they were losing so much of the fenestration and there was so little of the original elements left. The advantage of the project was that they would be restoring the porches back to what they had originally been. The building would loose fenestration; however, gaining something else and it would be a nice trade off. He thought they should review some of those areas that could be improved to bring it more in line with the hip roof, classical revival style, or what was known as a four square style, which had been very common in that area in Old Towne. Regarding the columns, he stated a huge majority of the classical revival houses in Orange used round columns. There were a few with slightly tapered or rectangular columns, however, most were round, some were a belly or cigar band column. He presented samples of the columns that he spoke about and the Committee Members and applicant reviewed the samples. Committee Member Wheeler stated what the applicant had proposed was some sort of a rectangular column with plant-ons and he felt that was not an appropriate style for Old Towne. On the porch structure there was one column that was full height and the other was rail height and he suggested that both columns be consistent in height. He had not known of anything like the unbalanced appearance in Old Towne. On the doors he recommended that they be the same head height as the other doors and have them be more consistent. Mr. Le Tourneau stated one of the challenges was fitting the doors under the existing porch placed them at a very low height for residential. There was an 11' plate on the major rectilinear portion of the site and a plate height of only 7'6" on the porches and he had not wanted to limit the height. In walking into the space there was an opportunity to open up the space with larger taller openings and the differential in head heights had not appeared to him as a mistake. Committee Member Wheeler stated there was the existing situation currently with differing head heights so it could be viewed as justifiable. He agreed with Staff that a door he referred to on the plans should be a 3' door. Mr. Le Tourneau stated the doors were 3'4", it had been a squatter door and it would not be a typical entry door. The Old Towne Standards spoke about oversized pronounced entry doors and having a larger width. It was an entry to a restaurant and they were attempting to strike the fine line in adapting the site to the new use and getting it up to par to have it be presentable without completely creating a commercial look. When reviewing the floor plan and converting the residence to a restaurant it required opening up the site to create a real business out of the site and the owners would be spending over a half million dollars to create some of those revisions and they were hesitant to look at some of the other models in the City as they wanted their site to function as an open unit and be open to the outside. There needed to be a connection from the City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 18 of 28 street all the way in to the back of the restaurant. There could not be walls put up and it was finding a balance of functionality and keeping some of the key components and architecture intact. He felt he had created that balance and had given up approximately 220 square feet in turning the porches back to their original style. Committee Member Gladson asked if the bi-fold door was consistent with a hip roof cottage? Committee Member Wheeler stated no. Committee Member Gladson stated the DRC would decide if that element was so outrageous and so inappropriate that they would want the applicant to make a change. Possibly they would not go in that direction. She could probably get comfortable with the bi-fold doors if they were designed to fit nice and there were benefits to having those doors. She liked everything else she saw in the proposed project. The DRC was the final determining body on the project and she was surprised at that; rarely had they done that, there was the parking piece that they had already spoken about. The site would be sharing the Lemon Street parking lot and it was the same as any other downtown restaurant. In some point in time the City would need to look at parking. Committee Member Wheeler stated as the project would not be going before the Planning Commission he asked the applicant if they intended to serve any alcoholic beverages? Mr. Le Tourneau stated the owners had not anticipated applying for that component. The focus would be on good healthy food, and the restaurant would not primarily cater to college students. The restaurant was extraverted and would be a social gathering and work well on the corner. They had done quite a bit of research about the area. The bi-fold door was historically on industrial use buildings and any opened-air shops, markets, and anything that needed those large openings. They were used in New York and in historical settings. The question was hip roof cottage; it was a style that they had seen implemented in the City of Orange that carried on a certain kid of hearts primarily in residences. It forced them to take a look at the project differently as the proposed project was a different use and there would be some compatibility issues with placating this kid of hearts with smaller openings for a restaurant. In speaking with his clients a few days ago they had relayed that they really needed the proposed project to present itself openly to the community. Committee Member Wheeler stated bi-fold doors were in no way compatible with a hip roof cottage and he would be willing to consider that as a special feature that was a very clear modification to a hip roof cottage. It was a change, but he wanted to keep the structure as close as they could to the style and to not have so many variations such as the non-symmetrical columns and if they could improve some of those features he would be willing to go with it as a special circumstance, Mr. Ryan stated one of the issues they would need to address was the appropriateness and if they felt the project complied with the Old Towne and the Secretary of Interior's Standards then they needed to be very careful in moving in that direction. It was a slippery slope and in making concessions, they needed to review the fenestrations and the details. There would need to be some discussions about how the internal and external spaces would function with the bi-fold doors. If the issue was to bring light into the building there were other ways to accomplish that with changing doors to windows or adding additional windows. There needed to be a bit more City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 19 of 28 thought in what direction they would need to proceed in, to bring more light in and to not get away from history. He felt the bi-fold doors could raise some concerns with compliance. Committee Member Wheeler stated he had not known about anything in the Standards that gave allowances for deviation when changing the use to a restaurant. They were stuck with the Standards and the Old Towne Design Guidelines. Committee Member Gladson stated maybe the Southwest Project Area Guidelines would give them some sort of "out of jail" card. Mr. Ryan stated it would not give them too much; the Guidelines stated adaptive use would be considered. Committee Member Gladson commented about if there was something that allowed additions; additions should be connected to the historic building so they could later be removed without destroying the original material. If windows and doors were taken out, the original materials were gone. Could they get to a point where those windows and doors could be put back in? Chair McCormack stated it would not work for the use. Committee Member Gladson stated if the use would somehow change in the future, possibly another restaurant could come in and they might not want the bi-fold doors. Mr. Ryan stated the Standards for contributing residences in the Sante Fe Depot Plan spoke about all existing architectural and landscape features shall be preserved. All the outside of an existing house would be reconstructed to match the original and the reconstruction of missing features shall be based on documentary evidence. That part would not give them much wiggle room. There might be other ways to bring light in through a dormer or other ways for that approach. Committee Member Cathcart stated he had not just looked at it from a standpoint of needing the doors for light; he felt they wanted to open up the area for inside and outside areas that would work together. Mr. Le Tourneau stated bringing more light in was not the issue, it was more of the smell of food wafting from inside to outside, the clattering of plates, the opening of the spaces to the outdoors and it was creating the indoor and outdoor areas. Committee Member Wheeler asked if the applicants had spoken with the Health Department, When Byblos (Cafe) had gone in on Chapman they originally had put in three sets of French doors and the Health Department had two of them sealed off, due to flies and a health issue. They may not allow the openings. Mr. Le Tourneau stated they had not addressed that yet. There were ways to deal with that with air screens on the inside and basic adjustments to make the spaces work. There were restaurants that opened up to the outside and they made it work. They were attempting to do as much as City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 20 of 28 they could to make the project work spatially, The doors would allow the inside to open up completely to the outside. Committee Member Woollett stated he agreed with Committee Member Wheelers comments about the columns and asked the applicant if those were changes he felt could be made? Mr. Le Tourneau stated previously they had discussed pulling off some of the veneer as that was a higher end design that was found in communities such as Arcadia where everything was very opulent; and they had hit on a very good point to use very honest materials and they were working in Old Towne Orange. Oddly enough he had completed all types of modern and historic architecture and the columns they suggested were very celebrated columns and quite opulent and very decorative. The site was not a structure that was trying to be more than it was and his comment was that he had looked at the suggested columns and felt they were overly designed and they would bring too much attention to that feature. He wanted a more understated design. He hesitated getting to more of a round, bellowed, articulate column as a decorative point and wanted something far more humble. Committee Member Wheeler stated he was creating something that was not compatible with Old Towne Orange; it might be something that was compatible with other neighborhoods. Mr. Le Tourneau stated in Orange there was a very strong detailed core that incorporated the details that Committee Member Wheeler spoke to, however, when getting to the outskirts of that core there was a transformation, the designs changed, and the buildings came out of necessity. They were not designed for the wealthy and the column that was suggested was not very modest. Committee Member Wheeler stated the columns were a big part of the design statement. Mr. Le Tourneau stated if they were not going to veneer the concrete in nice stone and brick why would they want to use more decorative columns and he was looking for some more consistency. Committee Member Wheeler stated he could design a column that was not so ornate but not as foreign as a column that he had designed; possibly a simple round column with a simple cap. Something that made a statement that he appreciated Orange and was not fighting it. Committee Member Gladson stated in driving down Lemon or Cypress there were homes that had those elements, the homes were modest and had become more of a Hispanic neighborhood, more of a barrio. She agreed with the suggestions from Committee Member Wheeler. Committee Member Wheeler stated he also questioned the use of board-formed concrete. Most of the City's concrete work was smooth and would not have a lot of weeping joints as noted in the proposed project, Chair McCormack stated he really liked the proposed project and he agreed with Committee Member Cathcart on the bi-fold doors. Although not historic, in their closed position they would not appear as bi-fold doors and he could get past that because of the change in use of the site. He had seen some things that were key in making the project work and those were the details. With the board-form concrete he felt it should match the finish on the walls that already existed. He City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 21 of 28 would want that element to match. One of the things he kept coming back to was how the tread on the step was only 14" and he had not liked the choppiness of the step and suggested an 18" step, something that was more generous. An area that could be stood on with deeper treads that gave a more welcoming feel. He liked what he saw. He could picture someone placing a laptop on the step and not having it fall off and using that as another seating area. Mr. Le Tourneau stated he had looked at that quite a bit, with assuring there was enough circulation space, pod seating, pass through areas and were they taking deck space away. Chair McCormack stated there was existing shrubs that would remain in a space he pointed to on the plans. His questions was that there were trees, and obviously the space was 18" higher than sidewalk grade, and he was seeing a raised platform and he wanted to understand if the space was being built up with new soil or was it kept at the existing grade with a deck system? Mr. Le Tourneau stated the area would be an informal surface, there were a couple of restaurants that, one came to mind Gulf Streams in Newport had a perimeter that used a compacted in-field baseball type surface. Chair McCormack stated that was DG. There would be a wall to retain that and a deck platform. Mr. Le Tourneau stated the grade was set to go along the perimeter wall, it would drop off slightly. He pointed out the area on the plans where there were slight grade changes. Chair McCormack stated when everything would be brought to the same elevation there were walls to retain the gravel and he was hearing that there would be new soil added for the trees. He was focusing on the details and he asked about the bike racks? Mr. Le Tourneau stated they would encourage less vehicular traffic and attempt to get the community involved in biking to the site. He pointed out apass-through entry to the site. Chair McCormack stated he wanted to have the space be successful. There would need to be irrigation and how had they proposed to handle drainage off of the roof? They could place drainage in the DG. Mr. Le Tourneau stated he believed currently there was not a system in place. They would want to catch some of the rain, which had not been incorporated in a gutter and down spout system into their plans. They would probably go with something clean and simple, fairly functional but concealed. They could tie the downspouts through the deck with some form of sub-system to handle that. Chair McCormack stated DG and water had not worked very well together. If they handled the water to work well off the roof they would not run into a problem with the gravel. He felt the applicant needed to review the details such as the columns and steps. Mr. Le Tourneau asked on the columns could they use some type of square column that would work with the project? City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 22 of 28 Committee Member Wheeler stated the applicant could find examples of some in Old Towne and he would be willing to consider that as long as it was an original historic design and not something that had been replicated later. Committee Member Woollett stated he understood that when they had been speaking about the entry doors that they had been 3', but he was noticing that they were 4' which was a really wide door and he suggested moving those down to 3'6". Committee Member Wheeler stated he would prefer 3' as they were so short. Committee Member Woollett stated the plans showed 7'. A front door could be larger than 3'. Mr. Ryan stated he agreed with Committee Member Wheeler that most doors were 3'. Committee Member Woollett asked if the applicant had given any consideration in using French doors rather than the bi-fold doors? They could have several pairs of doors to make the opening. Mr. Le Tourneau stated the use of French doors was in the initial submittal, there were French doors on those plans and he had gotten his hands slapped. Mr. Ryan stated they could probably find French doors in Old Towne. Committee Member Woollett stated it was not unheard of and especially when there was a deck. It was the side elevation and it was set back. Mr. Ryan stated there were sliding French doors, that would slide passed each other. Mr. Le Tourneau stated they had not looked at the multi-slide doors as they looked a bit more modern when they stacked back. The bi-fold doors could go back in any direction, they could go three to the left and two to the right or they could all go to one side or the other. The only difference between the bi-fold and the French doors would be a center column with the French doors. He would prefer, as they were attempting to create seating and fluidity, the use of bi-fold doors. Committee Member Woollett stated they could have the doors going different ways, with leaves stacking differently. Chair McCormack asked was the issue that the bi-fold doors were non-historic? Mr. Ryan stated the issue was the change to the fenestration of the building on the side that was original. Committee Member Woollett stated he had not had an issue with that and it had been his opening comment. He was more concerned with remaining true to the style. The building was located in a transitional zone and that would give them justification to be true to the style but not to the existing elements and because of the change in use. He would call the doors multi-fold doors City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 23 of 28 and he had no issue with replacing the windows with doors; he understood not wanting the two pairs of French doors. Mr. Le Tourneau stated bi-fold or multi-fold doors were traditional, especially in an area that was somewhat industrial surrounded by the old rail yard. Committee Member Wheeler stated he felt it was not justifiable to mix an industrial building with a house. Mr. Le Tourneau stated it was about the nostalgia about keeping the historical fabric and staying true to the typology or thematic architecture; they were not modern doors and that was an important point. Chair McCormack stated there had been a comment about the Health Department coming in and that could mean taking their two hour discussion and just throwing it in the hopper; exploring what the applicant had proposed was a good idea. At a certain point there was an invention that made things better and he felt the Health Department might have the trump card on the project. Committee Member Woollett stated maybe not, as there were many restaurants that had outside eating areas. Committee Member Wheeler stated yes, but they had no large openings between the inside and outside. Mr. Le Tourneau stated there were many restaurants that had the element. Committee Member Woollett stated he felt it was an issue of where the food was prepared and not where it would be eaten. Chair McCormack stated he had been at an event where there was a roll up door, and when the door was open it appeared to just go away. He had seen examples of very nicely done doors of that type. Committee Member Wheeler stated certainly that was not appropriate to a restaurant. Chair McCormack stated the idea was to provide openness. It was not historic and that was the issue. Mr. Ryan stated there were some issues that needed to be looked at; studying the columns, having or not having side lights, changing the door dimensions, changing the board form concrete to more historic finish and then re-studying the door opening area to find an element that was more historic and finding a solution to address all of that. Chair McCormack stated the use would justify the solution. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 24 of 28 Mr. Ryan stated they had to deal with the design standards. The use was not an issue; the issue was how to maintain the existing fenestration. Certainly they could look at door treatments that were more historic and felt the proposed project needed more work. Committee Member Wheeler suggested having the windows match the treatment on the existing windows and to add that detail to the plans. Committee Member Gladson stated there were some elements that were not completely nailed down and she would be inclined to allow the applicant to have some more time to work the details out. She would not be comfortable to make a final action. To allow the applicant a chance to nail everything down and to possibly find out if there would be a problem with the Health Department. She had not wanted to be too troubled by that as she wanted to focus on the design. She generally liked where the project was going and she appreciated having the entire space be commercial. Chair McCormack stated in his quest to review more detail he agreed with Committee Member Gladson. He would also like to see the landscape element that would be a significant element to the use. They had previously spoken about Lemon and Maple trees and he had not felt that those types of trees were needed, and they could suggest other plantings. The character of the building would be with the openness and how inviting it would be. Mr. Ryan asked with the two porches would that balance out the issue with the fenestration and the doors? Committee Member Wheeler stated there was a trade off and they were gaining something with the addition of the porches and he would concede finding something special about the doors, although they would not be compatible with Old Towne, as long as they were a form that was found in Old Towne. Mr. Le Tourneau stated he mainly practiced in New York and asked if there was a way to resubmit the drawings with some sort of condition of approval? They had discussed columns, treads, defining the trees, the side lights and getting the doors correct, he wanted to understand the next step? Chair McCormack stated the property owner could return with those changes. The DRC wanted the proposed project to do well. Mr. Ryan stated he could also be included in discussions with the property owners to give them insight in what direction they needed to go. The Committee Members reviewed the suggestions and recommendations with the applicant. Mr. Le Tourneau stated on the concrete he had wanted to add something due to the pour line and that was why he had suggested another treatment to the face of it. He wondered if they would have a problem with a joint line on the concrete wall? Committee Member Wheeler stated they might want to emphasize the joint line. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 25 of 28 Chair McCormack stated those lines should have some meaning, where things would line up at. He would also want to see a lighting plan. Committee Member Woollett made a motion to continue DRC No. 4411-09, Freebird Cafe, with the suggestions and recommendations provided to the applicant. SECOND: Adrienne Gladson AYES: Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Joe Woollett, Craig Wheeler NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 26 of 28 New Agenda Items: 4) DRC No. 4426-09 - SPIC `N' SPAN CLEANERS -SIGN PROGRAM A proposal for a sign program for a commercial cleaner. 201 W. Chapman Avenue, Old Towne Historic District Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, 714-744-7224, dryanncityoforange.org DRC Action: Final Determination Committee Member Wheeler was recused from the presentation of the item due to the proximity of the project to his business address. Historic Preservation Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, Gilbert Hwang, stated basically Staff had wanted to reduce the length of the sign and he felt it would be too narrow and the letters would look weird. He wanted to keep the 26' length. Public Comment None. Chair McCormack opened the item for discussion. Committee Member Woollett stated the Staff analysis was very thorough and complete. He was prepared to accept the project. Chair McCormack stated he liked the project and he asked for clarification on the letter size. Mr. Ryan stated it was to reduce the letter size to comply with code, otherwise a variance would be required to exceed the 20'. The letter style was fine, the size just needed to be modified. Committee Member Gladson asked about the blade sign. Was it not calculated into the sign area? She asked for clarification on that element. She liked the blade sign and thought it was a nice element. She appreciated the metal letters and the color palette. Mr. Ryan stated on a business that was wanting to install a new blade sign they would calculate that area and add it, the existing blade sign could remain and exceed the square footage. Because of the building orientation, the overall sign area was way under the maximum signage area. One of the other issues was that most businesses would want some vehicular signage and that gave a good vehicular view. The blade sign gave good visibility. Committee Member Cathcart stated it really cleaned up that corner; he liked the project and thought it was very nice. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 27 of 28 Applicant, Miuk Chu, address on file, passed out a sample of the letter material that would be used. She stated they would have the letters reduced in proportion to the reduction in the sign length and the letter styles would remain the same. Chair McCormack made a motion to approve DRC No. 4426-09, Spic `N' Span Cleaners-Sign Program, with the conditions contained in the Staff Report and with the following modification: 1. To have the Cleaner's lettering be 15" and the Spic `N' Span lettering to be 12" high to fit into the 20" sign length. SECOND:Joe Woollett AYES:Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Joe Woollett NOES:None ABSTAIN:None ABSENT:None RECUSED:Craig Wheeler MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for July 1, 2009 Page 28 of 28 ADJOURNMENT: Committee Member Wheeler made a motion to adjourn to the next regular scheduled meeting on July 15, 2009 at 5:00 p.m. The meeting adjourned at 8:35 p.m. SECOND:Joe Woollett AYES:Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES:None ABSTAIN:None ABSENT:Bill Cathcart MOTION CARRIED.