06-19-2002 DRC MinutesCITY OF ORANGE
DESIGN REVIEW COMMITTEE
MINUTES
Wednesday, June 19, 2002
Committee Members Present: Alice Angus
Mark Paone
Susan Secoy
Joe Woollett (Chair)
Staff in Attendance: Chuck Lau, Associate Planner
David Statton, Landscape Coordinator
Khanh Le, Recording Secretary
Committee Member Absent: Leonard Filner (Vice Chair)
Administrative Session - 4:30 P.M.
The committee met for an administrative session beginning at 4:30 p.m. The meeting adjourned
at approximately 7:30 p.m.
Regular Session - 5:30 PM
REVIEW OF MINUTES:
Review and approval of the June 5, 2002 meeting minutes was deferred to the July 10, 2002
meeting.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 2
DRC No. 3614 -GREG & MARILYNN EARLY
Review of landscaping plans for an approved second story addition onto an existing
residence in Old Towne.
147 N. Cambridge Street (Old Towne Historic District)
Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan -Senior Planner, Historic Preservation
DRC Action: Final Determination
Robert Imboden represented the applicants, Greg and Merlynn Early (142 N. Cambridge St.,
Orange) who were also present.
Mr. Imboden recapped the previous meeting on 10/21/2001. The revised plans have been
approved by the City Council. The revisions included reducing the building in size, the existing
single car garage is retained, and eliminating the attached two-car garage. The original
condition of approval was to add landscaping in order to mitigate the attached garage as viewed
form the driveway.
Committee Chair Woollen explained that the DRC will be addressing the landscaping today; and
the DRC's concern had to do with the project as it was previously proposed to mitigating the
back of the building, primarily as viewed from the southeast.
Committee Member Angus stated that the project originally had the attached garage at the rear,
but that has now been mitigated because the garage is no longer attached and the rest of the
proposed addition has been scaled back.
The meeting was opened for public comments: (None)
Committee Member Paone stated that he does not have a problem with the proposed revision,
other than not seeing landscaping in the back of the building.
Mr. Early replied that he would like to install a swimming pool in the back of the property, but
has not made any plans concerning the landscaping for fear that the proposed construction
plans may be rejected by the City. Presently, there is grass in the back with some planting
along the fence lines, a lemon tree, and vines on the walls along each side.
Committee Member Angus explained that the only remaining issue is the garage. It must be a
detached garage and the applicant can either revised it to meet the two-car garage requirement,
or apply for a variance to keep it as a single-car garage.
Committee Member Paone asked if the appropriate action would be to remove the committee's
previous condition concerning the landscaping.
Committee Member Angus stated that it could not be done because it was incorporated into the
approval process. Their concern today only deals with the landscaping issue.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 3
DRC No. 3614 -GREG & MARILYNN EARLY (Continued)
A motion was made by Committee Chair Joe Woollett to approve the project as submitted.
The approval is based on the following findings:
1. The proposed work conforms to the standards and design criteria referenced and/or
recommended by the Design Review Committee or other reviewing body for the project.
2. The proposed work complies with the Secretary of the Interior Standards for Rehabilitation
and Guidelines for Rehabilitation and infill development guidelines within a Historic District.
3. The proposed work will neither adversely affect the significant architectural features of the
building, nor adversely affect the character of historical, architectural, or aesthetic interest
or value of the building, its site, or the surrounding area.
SECOND:
AYES:
NOES:
ABSENT:
ABSTAINED
Alice Angus
Alice Angus, Mark Paone, Joe Woollett
None
Leonard Filner
Susan Secoy
MOTION CARRIED
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 4
2. DRC No. 3698 - IMMANUEL LUTHERAN SCHOOL
Review of lattice detail for the addition of two new modular classroom buildings at an
existing church school facility in Old Towne.
147 S. Pine Street (Old Towne Historic District)
Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan -Senior Planner, Historic Preservation
DRC Action: Final Determination
Approved as Consent Item)
A motion was made by Committee Chair Joe Woollett to approve the project as submitted.
The approval is based on the following findings:
1. The proposed work conforms to the standards and design criteria referenced and/or
recommended by the Design Review Committee or other reviewing body for the project.
2. The proposed work complies with the Secretary of the Interior Standards for Rehabilitation
and Guidelines for Rehabilitation and infill development guidelines within a Historic District.
3. The proposed work will neither adversely affect the significant architectural features of the
building, nor adversely affect the character of historical, architectural, or aesthetic interest
or value of the building, its site, or the surrounding area.
SECOND:
AYES:
NOES:
ABSENT:
ABSTAINED
Alice Angus
Alice Angus, Mark Paone, Joe Woollett
None
Leonard Filner, Susan Secoy
None
MOTION CARRIED
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 5
3. DRC No. 3730 -BARBARA FREY
Expansion of an existing residence in Old Towne to consist of a 151 sq. ft. addition with
a bay window on the north side, and a 440 sq. ft. studio and bathroom addition at the
southeast corner of the residence. The proposal also includes the change-out of an
existing second floor window to a new exit door, and addition of a new metal spiral
staircase at the rear of the existing residence.
405 S. Grand Street (Old Towne Historic District)
Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan -Senior Planner, Historic Preservation
DRC Action: Preliminary Review
Mr. Jack McGee, Planning Consultant presented the project. He pointed out the proposed
modification to the existing structure on the blueprint. The proposal is for two additions to the
structure to allow additional living space. One addition is to the side of the structure, which will
expand the existing kitchen; and the other is the addition of craft studio in the back. The
bedroom and bathroom will also be expanded, which will be shared by the studio. There is also
a proposed deck at the rear of the residence. He also explained that there is a proposed
handicapped ramp for a relative who needs this addition. Mr. McGee further explained the
elevation of the additions as he pointed to the drawing.
Committee Member Angus asked about the proposed stairway.
Mr. McGee replied that there is a spiral stairway that the applicant would like to include. There
is an existing internal stairway.
He also stated there is minimal disruption to the existing floor plan of the house. He understood
the committee's concern about irreversible changes that could be adverse or diminish historical
character of the property. Mr. McGee felt the architect has worked to maintain the historical
aspect.
Committee Woollett clarified that the purpose today is the committee is to do a preliminary
review, not to finalize the decision.
Mr. McGee explained that he was hoping to get comments and direction from the committee
concerning design guidelines because this is a serious application; the applicants are ready to
proceed with the plans.
Committee Member Paone added that he believes the Brown Act pertains to this action, which
has its own guidelines.
Committee Member Angus explained that even so, the committee can have individual
comments. She assumed that the applicant is looking for comments and guidelines from the
committee and will decide on a course of action pertaining to revisions and or the application
depending on the comments.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 6
3. DRC No. 3730 -BARBARA FREY (Continued)
Mr. McGee stated that he is aware that the staff's general consensus is that the design is not
compliant with guidelines. The staff report addressed the issue of the bay window and the spiral
staircase. Mr. McGee felt those would be easy to deal with. He added that despite the city's
concern about projections into side yard areas, the applicant has minimized the appearance of
side yards and is consistent with maintaining the street pattern and side yard condition. Mr.
McGee showed pictures of other properties on the 400 block that also have detached
structures.
Committee Member Paone pointed out that those properties are not corner lots.
Mr. McGee answered that he is aware of that, but the applicant is trying to address the staff's
concerns.
Committee Member Secoy asked about the second floor.
Mr. McGee said there are no proposed additions to the second floor.
There was some confusion concerning the different sketches.
Committee Member Angus clarified that in the other sketch the staff looked at; they were
questioning whether the applicant could accommodate a studio within the existing floor space
upstairs. One of the things the guidelines ask to look at is if there is a proposal for an addition,
can it be accommodated within the existing square footage.
Mr. McGee commented that he has not seen that sketch.
Committee Chair Woollett asked for public comments.
Mr. Jeff Frankel (384 S. Orange St., Orange) commented that he had concerns about the pop
out of the staircase on the side of the house.
Ms. Janet Crenshaw (464 N. Shaffer, Orange) expressed the same sentiment that Mr. Frankel
had.
Committee Member Paone stated that in addressing the issues, the committee keeps in mind
that some buildings were designed to grow, others have limitations for growth. In this particular
case, this building has a very prominent design. He suggested the applicant look at a house in
North Santa Ana that may help in the design.
Committee Member Paone stated he does not have any issues with a second set of stairs, but
he feels the spiral stairs does not fit into the decade or century of the building.
Committee Member Secoy is concerned about the elevation and would like to see it solved
internally. She also would prefer the windows be left intact to mirror the front facade.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 7
3. DRC No. 3730 -BARBARA FREY (Continued)
Mr. McGee stated he is hearing a big concern about the two elevations and the pop out.
Committee Member Paone stated that the applicant is up against two obstacles--the
precedence in the community and the political climate.
Committee Chair Woollett stated he does not have any arguments with doing anything on the
north side, but have concerns about the curved roof. Apart of the issue is that this is an early
building and it is larger than the other buildings in the area. Because of the way it is landscaped
now, the building is very prominent. He feels very strongly that any additions that will be made
need to be consistent with the original design. The proposed revisions do not fall into that
category.
Mr. McGee wanted to clarify whether that is a scale issue or a detailing issue.
Committee Chair Woollett answered that it is a detailing issue. An example is the tucking of the
roof in underneath the other.
Committee Member Paone suggested possibly taking that and putting it on the back to give
some additional square footage. Also looking at the second floor and reshuffling some space.
Committee Chair Woollett added that he is not sure why the building has curves on it. In his
opinion, the original design was an adulterated design, may be it is part of the context of the old
town. Possibly getting rid of that will make the addition a lot easier.
He also added that he concurs with Committee Member Paone about the staircase, which does
not fit with the period. He liked the idea of getting rid of the aluminum thing in the back and
possibly adding something else to the back to make an enlargement. And also it may be
possible to add something on the north side.
Committee Secoy concurred with Committee Chair Woollett and would like further exploration of
the space upstairs.
Committee Member Angus also concurred with what has been said so far, specifically it will be a
challenge to design the north side. The rear is also an area that needs to be addressed.
Committee Chair Woollett stated he sees this project as an opportunity to make some changes
to this building.
Mr. McGee concluded by saying that he will go back and discuss with the owners concerning
the issues and comments and come back with another design.
No action required. Preliminary review only.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 8
4. DRC No. 3743 -SALON REBELLE
New wall sign for an existing brick commercial building in Old Towne.
127 S. Olive Street (Old Towne Historic District)
Staff Contact: Chuck Lau -Associate Planner
DRC Action: Final Determination
Ms. Jessica Moz of Southwest Sign Company (1540 Commerce St., #G, Corona, CA 92880)
presented the project.
She explained that the sign currently exists. They had requested for a special event permit
while they were going through the process of applying for a permit.
Committee Chair Woollett wanted to clarify that the issue is the size of the sign.
Ms. Moz explained that she had spoken to staff about it and believes the sign is visually
appropriate for the building whether it fits the standard or not.
Committee Member Angus clarified for the listening public that there is a minimum letter height
requirement of fifteen inches within the Old Towne plaza area. In this particular case, the
letterings are smaller than that, and it would require a variance to allow letterings smaller than
that, and the City has approved smaller letterings in the past.
Committee Member Paone had a question about the awning.
Ms. Moz explained that their scope of work is just the design of the sign.
Committee Member Angus clarified that the issue of the awning only came up today and the
staff may need to follow up on that, but the issue the committee is to decide on today is the
signage.
Committee Chair Woollett asked if the committee can approve of the proposal today with a
condition concerning the lettering.
Staff Member Lau replied that condition would be a part of the recommendation for approval.
Committee Chair Woollett asked for public comments.
There were none.
Committee Member Secoy commented that she is comfortable with approving this project since
the work is already done, even though it is not standard protocol of the process.
Committee Member Paone wanted to point out that the committee does not condone this in the
future.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 9
4. DRC No. 3743 -SALON REBELLE (Continued)
Committee Member Secoy also commented that she is relieved that the applicant is working
within the existing beam and it is proportional and she does not have any problems with that.
Committee Member Angus wanted to add that the temporary signage was meant to be a
temporary banner to allow the applicant to go through the process of getting a permit and was
not meant to allow any type of permanent signage.
A motion was made by Committee Member Alice Angus to recommend approval of the project
to the Zoning Administrator, with the letter height as shown on the proposed plans.
The approval is based on the following findings.
The proposed work conforms to the standards and design criteria referenced and/or
recommended by the Design Review Committee or other reviewing body for the project.
2. The proposed work complies with the Secretary of the Interior Standards for
Rehabilitation and Guidelines for Rehabilitation and infill development guidelines within a
Historic District.
SECOND: Mark Paone
AYES: Alice Angus, Mark Paone, Susan Secoy, Joe Woollett
NOES: None
ABSENT: Leonard Filner
ABSTAINED: None
MOTION CARRIED
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 10
5. DRC No. 3744 -LINDA GREELEY
New 600 sq. ft. two-car detached garage to replace an existing 330 sq. ft. single-car
detached garage for an existing residence in Old Towne.
513 E. Washington Avenue (Old Towne Historic District)
Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan -Senior Planner, Historic Preservation
DRC Action: Final Determination
Ms. Linda Greeley (513 E. Washington Ave., Orange) and Mr. Paul Hudson (212 S. Orange,
Orange) presented the project. The proposal is to renovate the existing single-car garage into
a two car garage. The concern is that the garage could fall down at any time.
Committee Member Angus asked the applicant to walk through the elevation.
Ms. Greeley explained the proposal as she is pointing to the blueprint, noting that the garage
would be facing north and would be 10 feet from the property line.
Committee Chair Woollett clarified that the new proposed garage will start farther south than the
existing garage. He also asked if the applicant will be moving the fence out.
Ms. Greeley answered yes.
Committee Member Secoy asked what is the siding of the garage will be.
Ms. Greeley replied that it will be wood, matching the back of the house.
Committee Chair asked about the front siding of the house having changed.
Ms. Greeley explained that someone had stucco through the side and front of the house, but
leaving the back as the original.
Committee Member Secoy asked if it would be the same color.
Ms. Greeley said yes, showing a sample of the material.
Committee Chair asked about the treatment at the top and for the doors.
Ms. Greeley said that there are going to be two (2) doors, wooden, flat panel, and sectional.
Committee Chair Woollett asked if they will be glass.
Ms. Greeley replied they would be wood.
Committee Chair Woollett asked for public comments.
Ms. Janet Crenshaw (464 N. Shaffer, Orange) commented that she sympathized because she
had the same problem.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 11
5. DRC No. 3744 -LINDA GREELEY (Continued)
Mr. Jeff Frankel (384 S. Orange St., Orange) asked if the garage is a contributing structure to
the district.
Committee Member Secoy recommended that the garage doors match with the characteristics
of the Old Towne.
Committee Member Paone added that he would also suggest looking at the man door. He
would like to warn the applicant that the style of some doors could look cheesy.
Ms. Greeley asked what would make the doors look cheesy
Committee Member Paone replied that the style of the rails, construction, the paint grade, and
the proportion of the doors could contribute to it. He continued to add that the applicant should
also be concerned with the lights in the same manner as the style of the doors.
Committee Chair Woollett asked for further comments.
There were none.
A motion was made by Committee Member Susan Secoy to approve the project with the
following conditions:
1. The applicant comply the conditions of the Old Towne findings.
2. The applicant explores alternative choices for sectional doors and man door and review
with city staff for approval.
SECOND: Mark Paone
AYES: Alice Angus, Mark Paone, Susan Secoy, Joe Woollett
NOES: None
ABSENT: Leonard Filner
ABSTAINED: None
MOTION CARRIED
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 12
6. DRC No. 3746 -CITY OF ORANGE
Preliminary review of conceptual design of comprehensive directional signage program
for the Old Towne area.
Old Towne Historic District
Staff Contact: Rick Otto -Project Manager
DRC Action: Preliminary Review
Staff Member Rick Otto presented the project by introducing Hunt Design Group, with Ms.
Heather Watson and Ms. Jennifer Bresser (25 N. Mentor, Pasadena) presenting.
Ms. Watson and Ms. Bresser started by explaining the process, what the designers have done
so far, and what they suggest concerning Orange. Orange's master plan calls for 30-40 signs,
none of which have any characteristics that specifically define what Orange is. The designers
want to create something that is unique to Orange, possibly using the citrus fruit as their symbol
since it is their name. In the design, they want to preserve the historical characteristics, but then
also giving it an upscale modern look.
Hunt Design Group went on to show samples of the boundaries they are working within and
explained that the objective is to bring people to their destinations: parking, senior center,
chamber of commerce, etc. They want to do it in an efficient manner, through straight lines.
They also want to create a system of naming parking lots.
Ms. Watson brought up the design for the icon of the city, making sure the color matches the
environment.
Committee Chair Woollett asked if any of the existing signs are sacred
Ms. Watson answered possibly the monument signs.
Committee Member Paone asked if that came from the city.
Staff Member Otto replied that the city recognizes there are certain signs that have historical
value.
Ms. Watson continued by illustrating more options, with different color variations. She also
presented the second concept, which is using the citrus fruit orange in the design. She further
explained that the city currently uses the orange in many signs and she would like to continue
that, putting the new designs in context with the old.
Committee Chair Woollett asked if the street signs would go through the old town area.
Ms. Watson answered that was correct.
Staff Member Otto interjected that in the end, the proposal would include a document with a
menu of all the proposed signs and their locations.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 13
6. DRC No. 3746 -CITY OF ORANGE (Continued)
Ms. Watson further explained that there would possibly be a phasing in of different signs at
different locations, depending on the city's budget.
Committee Member Paone commented that the concept for the street sign should be a
prototype for the whole city. But it would also be nice if the signs for old town could be different,
giving old town a bigger boost to its identity. He added that an additional concern is the
mounting, that most signs in the city are edge mount.
Committee Chair Woollett also noted that the types of brackets are also a concern.
The committee and presenters went on to discuss in further details the different types of mounts
and brackets.
Committee Member Paone mentioned that some of the parking lots have reciprocal agreements
with their neighbors. He also added that the committee should communicate with the designers
the city's plans for the different parking lots in the city.
Staff Member Otto replied that is part of the process.
Committee Chair Woollett asked about the city buildings.
Staff Member Otto replied that is part of the directional signs.
Committee Chair Woollett clarified his question by asking about the signage on the building.
Ms. Watson answered that is not part of their project's scope.
The committee and presenters continued to discuss different aspects of the scope of their
project.
Committee Chair Woollett asked for public comments.
Ms. Janet Crenshaw (464 N. Shaffer, Orange) asked about the Chapman parking lot.
Mr. Jeff Frankel (384 S. Orange St., Orange) noted that he was not aware of the public hearing.
Staff Member Otto explained that the city used the library list to send out flyers.
Mr. Frankel asked how many people attended.
Staff Member Otto answered there were around eighteen (18) people.
Ms. Crenshaw asked if this meeting was for merchants.
Staff Member Otto answered that there was a different meeting for merchants.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 14
6. DRC No. 3746 -CITY OF ORANGE (Continued)
The Committee and presenters continued their discussion, changing the topic to the walkway,
alleys, static, and parking signage. They also discussed the possibility of having a kiosk in the
streets.
Ms. Watson explained that they have done a couple of different designs and colors schemes
that the staff has had a chance to review. What they have been presenting during today's
meeting has been a selection based on the staff's comments.
Staff Member Otto concurred with what Ms. Watson had said.
The conclusion is that the design group is looking for feedback concerning the preliminary forms
and colors.
The consensus is design two (2) gets more attention and has more characteristics.
Committee Chair Woollett commented that he is impressed with what he has seen so far and
believe they are heading in the right direction.
No action required. Preliminary review only.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for June 19, 2002
Page 15
7. DRC No. 3748 - CASK N CLEAVER RESTAURANT
New wall sign for an existing restaurant in Old Towne.
186 N. Atchison Street (Old Towne Historic District)
Staff Contact: Chuck Lau -Associate Planner
DRC Action: Final Determination
Approved as Consent Item)
A motion was made by Committee Member Mark Paone to approve the project as submitted.
SECOND:
AYES:
NOES:
ABSENT:
ABSTAINED
MOTION CARRIED
Joe Woollett
Alice Angus, Mark Paone, Joe Woollett
None
Leonard Filner, Susan Secoy
None
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