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05-21-2003 DRC MinutesCITY OF ORANGE DESIGN REVIEW COMMITTEE MINUTES Wednesday, May 21, 2003 Committee Members Present: Jon Califf Craig Wheeler Joe Woollett (Chair) Leonard Filner Staff in Attendance: Jim Reichert, Planning Manager Debbie Ritchey, Recording Secretary Committee Member Absent: None Administrative Session - 4:30 P.M. The committee met for an administrative session beginning at 4:30 p.m. The meeting adjourned at approximately 8:30 p.m. Regular Session - 5:30 PM REVIEW OF MINUTES: The review and approval of the May 7, 2003 minutes was deferred to the June 4, 2003 City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for May 21, 2003 Page 2 1. DRC No. 3776-02 -ROBERT MACARTHUR M.D. Proposed two-story, 5,630 sq. ft., medical office building office. 396 S. Main Street (north side of Culver Avenue and approximately 150 west of Main Street) Staff Contact: Christopher Carnes, Senior Planner DRC Action: Final Determination Mr. Robert Ader, architect for the applicant, reviewed the proposed site, building and landscaping plans for a new, two-story, professional office building with subterranean parking. The project includes the demolition of the existing office building. Discussion was held regarding changes from the building plans originally submitted. The exterior walls would be partially covered with artificial stones, which plantings would be on trellises, and the trash enclosure gate will be constructed of medal framework with mesh screening. Chair Woollett asked if anyone from the public had any questions or comments, to which there was no response. Chair Woollett pointed out that the shutters do not match the other architectural details, that the trellises were too small in scale when compared to the other architectural features, and the wall lights could be placed elsewhere to complement the architectural windows. Mr. Ader answered that the lights should be shining up and that the lights would be placed between the windows. Committee Member Filner stated that due to the removal of existing mature trees the landscaping plans shall include replacement trees of substantial size (one per tree in a 36" box) and that a tree variety with broadleaves is needed. This would go along with the tropical style. The existing Pine tree would work, he doesn't have a problem with that, but the other two are Sycamore trees and would not work. In reference to the size of a Queen Palm, that is called out as an eight foot brown trunk height minimum (the architect called it out as a box size). A motion was made by Committee Member Craig Wheeler to continue the project to allow time for the applicant to revise the architectural details and landscaping plans per the discussion above. SECOND: Jon Califf AYES: Jon Califf, Leonard Filner, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSENT: None ABSTAINED: None MOTION CARRIED City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for May 21, 2003 Page 3 2. DRC No. 3815-03 -WILLIAM SILBERMANN New residential duplex development. 304 S. Hewes Street Staff Contact: Chuck Lau, Associate Planner DRC Action: Final Determination Continued from 5-7-03 meeting) Mr. William Silbermann presented the project and pointed out changes, which were requested at the May 7t" DRC meeting. Stucco Colors Color of Building Change in grade (lowered a foot) Small wall added in front Security (gate added) Landscaping Committee Member Leonard Filner asked a question about the landscaping, specifically tree sizes. They will have to be a 24" box or larger. Committee Chair Joe Woollett commented that the new plans were a substantial improvement. Mr. Silbermann next showed the Committee the new detail plan. Committee Member Craig Wheeler wanted to see the elevations. A motion was made by Committee Member Leonard Filner to approve the project subject to the following conditions: 1. The two trees in the front be increased to a 24" box size, per code. 2. Final landscape and irrigation plans are submitted to staff for final approval, including staff notes. SECOND: Jon Califf AYES: Jon Califf, Leonard Filner, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSENT: None ABSTAINED: None MOTION CARRIED City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for May 21, 2003 Page 4 3. DRC No. 3816-03 -THE JENSEN BUILDING Proposal to develop a 2-story, 15,293 sq. ft. office building within Old Towne on a portion of a lot that is currently developed with an antique mall, parking lot, and a Farmer's Market on Thursdays. 143 West Almond Avenue (Old Towne Historic District) Staff Contact: Mario Chavez-Marquez, Assistant Planner DRC Action: Recommendation to the Staff Review Committee Mr. Jim Reichert, Acting Planning Manager, read a statement regarding the participation of Committee Chair Joe Woollett and Committee Member Craig Wheeler. Due to the fact that the two above mentioned Committee Members' offices are located within 500 feet of the applicant's property (143 W. Almond Avenue), they may not participate in the decision on the property. However, the City Attorney has informed City staff, that under what is called Rule of Necessity, one of two DRC members can participate in order that a quorum can be established so that DRC can make a decision. At random Committee Member Wheeler was chosen to remain on to establish a quorum, he cannot participate in the discussion, nor vote to make a recommendation. His vote cannot be used to break a tie. Committee Chair Joe Woollett commented that since he would be leaving the meeting Vice Chair Leonard Filner would be in charge. At 6:25 p.m. Committee Chair Woollett left the room. Susan Secoy, Architect, presented the project. Also present were the applicant, Dan and Paul Jensen. A slideshow presentation followed, showing the highlights of the project: Site plan with elevations Compatibility of the project How it conforms to the Design Standards The landscape features The design treatments and the materials used How project is being phased (First Phase of project being reviewed at this meeting.) The vision for the second phase would include the remodel of the existing building, when a suitable tenant is located. The third phase would be to adapt a parking structure within the site plan that has been designed. The project is located on the corner of Almond and Glassell. One concern was how to treat the monument sign. Direction was to incorporate the sign into the design. In the slideshow presentation, different building schemes were shown. The applicant proposed that the building be built without moving the sign, however, they also presented a building scheme with the sign built into the building at a 45 degree angle. The monument sign seems to be the main problem. There has been talk that the sign is going to be redesigned. The problem being that if they wait for a conclusive answer the building may be delayed by several years. The applicant was told that Redevelopment is looking at new signs being done in the Plaza. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for May 21, 2003 Page 5 Ms. Secoy and the applicant outlined how they would ultimately like one tenant to take over the whole building. Their wish at this meeting is to get input from the Committee before the project is taken back to the drawing board and pull it all together. The applicant believes the proposed work conforms to the standards and design criteria referenced and/or recommended by the DRC or other reviewing body for the project. The proposed work complies with the Secretary of the Interior Standards for Rehabilitation and Guidelines for Rehabilitation. Ms. Secoy and the applicant have used verbatim language from the Standards designing the building. The slideshow presentation continued. Hearing open to the public: Jeff Frankel, OTPA, 384 S. Orange Street: Mr. Frankel liked that real brick was being used. He would not like to see the building blend in completely with the rest of the architecture on the block, nor stick out like a "sore thumb". Mr. Frankel pointed out his preference of the building designs. He thinks the design is a good design. Janet Crenshaw, OTPA, 464 N. Shaffer: Ms. Crenshaw liked the design showing the monument sign on the corner of the building. Staff Member Mario Chavez-Marquez wanted to give a presentation and clarification as to what is being done at tonight's meeting. Staff Review Committee reviewed the proposed project, and referred it to the DRC for review prior to acting on the proposal. Staff has provided the applicant with written comments and the applicant has returned with revised designs. Staff is asking that the committee concur with staff that the project as submitted does not comply with the Old Towne Design Standards, Secretary of Interior Design Standards, Design Standards for the Southwest project area and the City's Local CEQA Guidelines. Some of the concerns from staff include: Site is an important intersection in Old Towne. Site serves as an entryway into the Plaza District. Would like the applicant to place extra emphasis on the architecture of the building. Possibly make it a focal point that can potentially become a landmark to the District. Serve as a welcoming component into the Plaza. The building should complement the streetscape along South Glassell Street. Enhance the scale of the rear elevation of the building. Other items discussed with the applicant were: Redesign the existing facade of the antique station to provide an entrance along Glassell. Identify any potential or proposed uses that will take place within the corridor between the proposed and existing buildings, and provide a detailed description of it to be reviewed as part of this proposal (not at a later time). City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for May 21, 2003 Page 6 The applicant mentioned earlier that they were complying with the southwest project area design standards. However, there are also Design Standards for Old Towne and Local CEQA Guidelines. Some of the things staff is asking or concerned about are as follows: Architecture to reflect the architectural styles predominate within the City of Orange from 1880 through 1930's). To identify the architectural style proposed, and address how the building is visually compatible with buildings along the southwest and southeast quadrant (Chapman Avenue to Almond Avenue) of the plaza. Old Towne Design Standards also speaks of buildings design reflecting contemporary, modern, postmodern architecture being prohibited in Old Towne. Concern in terms of height of the adjacent building (Satellite Market) with relationship to the proposed building. Old Towne Design Standards states that the new building has to be lower than the adjacent building. Mr. Chavez-Marquez then turned over the presentation to Staff Member Dan Ryan to discuss other concerns previously discussed with applicant: Height, width, and depth of the building should be compatible with other historic buildings similarly located at the edge of the four block business core. Adjacent construction at the height of the parapet at Satellite Market is seventeen feet. The proposed building cannot exceed that height (at that edge). Building setback and site patterns. Separation between existing facade and the edge of the new building should be increased. The streetscape pattern along Glassell needs to be studied further to address the relationship between the proposed and existing buildings on the block. Proposed building is modern in design compared to the 1910 1950's reflected in other commercial buildings in the Plaza. Use of finish materials Mr. Ryan discussed the canopies and that they are certainly used in the Plaza, some were added in the 1950's, some were extensions to protect the public from the elements. They have been part of the evolution of the Plaza, not necessarily sure if it's something that the City would want to continue with. Historically the awnings were retractable. There are a couple of styles of entrances; some are angled at 45 degrees and some at 90 degrees. Since it is a gateway & core development, it's important this project sets the tone. It doesn't have to distract from or overpower the other buildings. Staff is asking DRC to concur that the project as currently proposed does not comply with adopted regulations, including those which prohibit modern or contemporary styles of architecture in Old Towne. Committee Member Jon Califf stated one of the general issues that he has is that it's not necessarily the phasing but he feels that the market has to be dealt with, if not completely, at least an indication of what could happen. The success of the area between the new building and the Satellite Market building depends on how you treat them relative to one another and who the tenant is. The existing building has its own issues but it all really needs to be unified. There is a fine line between simplicity and bareness. Committee Member Califf shares concerns of the staff and thinks there are issues and asked the applicant what they could say about the market, tenants, etc. and why the project is being phased at this point. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for May 21, 2003 Page 7 Mr. Jensen answered that ultimately what they would like to do is construct the new building and bring new tenants to the Satellite Market building. The family has owned the business for thirty years. They are looking to build a timeless building and keep it as part of their family. They try to maintain what is currently there and what they have is not "broken", and they don't have to do anything. They would like to make it better. His ultimate goal would be to get out of the retail business and get a Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, Wild Oats Market, Mother's Market in there. Ms. Secoy stated they want to "refine" the corner. She does not feel that the plans are complete; they are at the meeting to hear the concerns of the Committee and staff. The plan is to keep the existing antique mall open so the economics pencil out for the new building. Once the new building is built and leased then they will go into the second phase, it's most important to get that tenant into the building. It does not make economic sense to do all the work at once. What do you do with all of the people that are paying rent right now in the Antique Mall? Mr. Jensen added the Antique Mall is a profitable business for him; it takes care of things as far as maintaining the property. He would like to keep that income stream until the new building is built and leased out, then go in there and start knocking out walls. The building has a lot of potential. Vice Chair Filner asked about the impact to the Antique Mall entrance once the main construction of Phase 1 is going on. He also wanted to know if the entrance was going to be moved or would people have to go through the alley to have access. Mr. Jensen answered that the entrance would stay where it's at until that project is done. There would still be approximately eight feet to get through. Committee Member Califf stated that what they would like to see would be the plans for the ultimate outcome -what will it all look like? Vice Chair Filner asked if anything would be done with the Antique portion. Mr. Jensen answered that with cost involved, he doubted anything could be done at this time. Vice Chair Filner wanted to go over the SRC concerns: Does this building have retractable awnings? Committee Member Califf answered that they were speaking in reference to prototype. He feels this would be an inappropriate addition to many of those buildings. The retractable awnings is what would have been typical on those buildings originally. Pedestrian scale along the back of the building, has this been addressed at all? Ms. Secoy answered that it hasn't. Their main focus has been on the overall bulk, and mass at the Glassell and Almond frontages. Vice Chair Filner addressed the site plans. One of his biggest concerns is with the new, lower version of the monument sign. That sign would cover up quite a bit of the glass corner. He isn't sure if this version would work out. Mr. Jensen showed the committee that the sign sits on City property, not his property. Vice Chair Filner asked what was between the face of the building and the sign. Mr. Jensen answered at least 20 feet and it goes down to about 6 feet between edge City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for May 21, 2003 Page 8 of the sign and corner of the building. Vice Chair Filner asked Ms. Secoy what the grid was on the horizontal corner? Ms. Secoy answered 2 feet. The ideas he liked the best were of the sign being incorporated into the building. Committee Member Jon Califf said they have seen what is proposed to replace the monument sign. It would be helpful to see where the sign is going to be, as the sign will stay there for some time. Ms. Secoy believes the direction is to leave the existing one where it is. Vice Chair Filner asked about Staff Member Ryan's reference to the height of the proposed building to the existing building. Mr. Ryan answered that the new building cannot be higher than the existing building. Vice Chair Filner said he would not have any problems with the height of the new building. However, he did say the building was a little too modern for him. He emphasized they were going in the right direction with the materials. The applicants had slides showing the different heights of the buildings throughout the Plaza District. The applicant and Ms. Secoy said that this is why they are at the meeting, for input to get this project moving along. Mr. Jensen said he has almost "pulled the plug" on the project several times. He thinks the width and height of the building is just what it should be and that you would be doing a disfavor if you put anything larger or smaller than the proposed project into that area. Mr. Ryan offered another option regarding the facade of the Satellite building and raising a parapet. That might be one way to address the scale between the two buildings. Committee Member Califf asked the applicant's to go through the material boards. Ms. Secoy said it would be: A natural brick Wood store front and windows Concrete bulkhead Typical glass (probably opaque or sandblasted) for the transom Clear glass for the storefront Clear glass on the corner Weathered copper canopy Copper downspouts Committee Member Califf wanted to summarize what direction he was looking in regards to design. It's necessary to see (even if it won't be built until they have a tenant) how the buildings relate to one another. He expressed his support if they raised the one area up as discussed. This will allow the applicant to deal with other issues. He would like to see in detail what is being done with the canopy. He is concerned about the modern feeling of the building. Further discussion followed. The applicant and Ms. Secoy know that design review is part of the process and would really like to find out exactly what the Committee wants. The applicant is frustrated because he doesn't seem to get any specific answers from staff regarding what exactly the City wants. Ms. Secoy spoke of a few different projects within the City that they could look at as examples, for instance the Courtyard (not quite sure what style that is) which seems to have been a successful project within the City, and then St. Johns's (not quite sure what this style is City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for May 21, 2003 Page 9 either) and overall it turned out just fine. The most recent one is the library, unclear of the style of this one also. The newer projects seem to be a little bit different. Vice Chair Filner commented that the diversity of the buildings is part of the beauty of the City. He feels that overall the applicant is going in the right direction but a lot of things need to be ironed out. The applicant has addressed everything as far as mass and scale. The monument sign was discussed. Vice Chair Filner said he knows that the applicant has no idea when the monument sign comes down and a new one goes up, but this is something that definitely needs to be addressed. Mr. Ryan asked Committee Member Califf to clarify his thoughts about the new building being almost two buildings in design. Committee Member Califf answered that the building was bothering him primarily because of the traditional rhythm that they have going on. Its all part of the internal consistency issue. There needs to be some further development of that. A discussion followed as to where the project is going from here and the reasons why the project does or does not comply with design standards. Committee Member Califf answered that as the project sits right now, he does not believe it complies completely with the design standards. Ms. Secoy asked specifically why it does not comply. Committee Member Califf answered that the project must be internally consistent. He feels that even though the existing market isn't part of the Phase 1, the Committee needs to see the whole plan for what it's all going to look like when finished. In leaving the market with the new building, it's much further from being in compliance with the standards than if it would be if it all worked together. Vice Chair Filner said that he would generally concur that the building itself is in general compliance, but he agrees with Committee Member Califf that the applicant does have control of the adjacent structure, it needs to be addressed at this time in reference to what is being done on the corner, site issues that need to be resolved, and some of the concerns that staff has regarding corridor use, pedestrian scaling on the rear of the building, and the detailing. Again he stated that overall, they are going in the right direction. He does not agree with the height limitation based on adjacent structures. His opinion is that he thinks it would be boring if it were the same height. Committee Member Califf stated that the Committee's feelings on the project are, as it stands it would not comply with the various requirements. The action they are proposing to take is to not make that determination at this point, but to continue the item with the anticipation that by addressing these issues, the project would comply. Ms. Secoy asked if it was the Committee's direction to work with the existing monument sign. Committee Member Califf answered that they had seen the new design but he does not believe that it will be changed out immediately. Ms. Secoy asked, if they have seen the design does it work? Vice Chair Filner said it's a little lower, with less impact on that corner. Ms. Secoy asked if she would be able to look at that. Vice Chair Filner answered that he knows that the monument sign is part of their frustration because they were given one direction in the beginning City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for May 21, 2003 Page 10 and now it's something else. Hopefully they can get more clear definition of what the City wants. Staff told Ms. Secoy that they would get a copy of the new sign for her. A motion was made by Committee Member Jon Califf to continue the project to allow the applicant to address the issues that were discussed, specifically; the internally consistent design between the proposed new building and the existing market building, provide additional detailing in the proposed canopy areas, and additional detailing of the proposed cornice and to perhaps look at options for the glass corner as well to depict the monument sign on the site plan and elevations as it's likely to occur. SECOND: AYES: NOES: ABSENT/ABSTAINED Leonard Filner Jon Califf, Leonard Filner None Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett MOTION CARRIED City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for May 21, 2003 Page 11 4. DRC No. 3818-03 -ERIC & LISA WOOLERY Proposed 340 sq. ft. expansion at the rear of an existing contributing 1932 Spanish Colonial Revival residence, construction of a new 428 sq. ft. studio/office over atwo-car garage, and demolition of an existing non-historic garage. 350 N. Harwood Street (Old Towne Historic District) Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, Senior Planner -Historic Preservation DRC Action: Recommendation to Planning Commission Committee Chair Joe Woollett returned for the remainder of the meeting at 7:40 p.m. Staff Member Dan Ryan, Senior Planner presented the project. Committee Chair Joe Woollett and applicant's discussed the elevations, beginning with the east elevation. East side elevation is unchanged, with the south elevation is unchanged in one area and changed a little in another area. (The Committee was looking at plans and pointing, so I was unable to get specific information.) They discussed the building offset where the new construction is built. Chair Woollett asked how the "drain scuppers" work? The applicant answered that the water runs out and drops. They stick out about two inches and when the water hits the ground, it hits dirt and gravel. Chair Woollett asked what happens at the base of the building and is there a foundation and does the plaster go over the foundation. Mr. Woolery answered that the plaster goes straight over the foundation and disappears into the dirt. Committee Member Craig Wheeler asked if that was going to be done with both the addition to the front house and on the rear house. Mr. Woolery said the new house they will modify and the existing house will stay the same. Janet Crenshaw, OTPA, 464 N. Shaffer, asked what the fireplace is made out of and what it was going to look like when finished? Mr. Woolery answered that the exterior is stucco, and added they weren't sure if it was of brick construction or wood framed. The finished product will be stucco. Jeff Frankel, OTPA, 384 S. Orange Street, thinks it looks like a good project and is sympathetic to the existing structure. It looks like a `60's' garage is being eliminated. All the windows & doors are matching wood. Mr. Frankel asked what the pitch on the house is? Mr. Woolery answered that it was the same as the City's requirement. Chair Woollett thinks that it's an excellent project. Had a short discussion with the applicant about the stucco coming down over the side and said that this was kind of a problem. He said traditionally that's what happens, but it's not a good idea. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for May 21, 2003 Page 12 Committee Member Leonard Filner added there was a remedy to this situation, which is to have a concrete edge or a 12 or 8" wide area of gravel to keep water away from it. Mr. Woolery asked the Committee if they wanted him to do that to the new building also? Chair Woollett answered that he is not of the mind to have the applicant to do anything; he just wanted the applicant to know this is something that could happen. There is no code requirement about it. Committee Member Filner had one recommendation relating to the site plan. When you get into turf block once the grass grows in you can't see anything, you can't see where the edge is. It would help to have a concrete edge. It ties it all in to the walkway, etc. Chair Woollett asked if a steel edge would work. The answer was `yes'. Committee Member Craig Wheeler asked if the applicant would consider making the sectional garage door, one piece? Also asked about the west windows and stated it would be good raise the sills on those some to maintain privacy. He also suggested they look at something different in the way of tiles. Suggested some kind of cover over the door at the back. A motion was made by Committee Member Craig Wheeler to approve the project subject to the following conditions: 1. Modify the two larger rear windows located at the rear elevation of the second unit to address issues of privacy. 2. Change the wood louvered vents on the gable end of the studio to clay the pipe, recommend using a clustered pattern of three or more the pipes to accommodate attic venting. 3. Provide one-piece garage doors rather than sectional type as proposed. 4. Extend existing overhang over rear exit door on rear accessory unit. 5. Install steel edging around the perimeter of all new turf block areas. The required findings also need to be included since the property is located in Old Towne. 1. The proposed work conforms to the design standards and criteria referenced and/or recommended by the Design Review Committee or other reviewing body for the project. 2. The proposed work complies with the Secretary of the Interior Standards for Rehabilitation and Guidelines for Rehabilitation and the City's Local CEQA Guidelines in the use of appropriate materials for new in-fill construction within the City's Historic District. 3. The proposed work will not affect the character of historical, architectural, or aesthetic interest or value of the site, or the surrounding neighborhood. SECOND: Leonard Filner AYES: Leonard Filner, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSENT: None ABSTAINED: Jon Califf MOTION CARRIED City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for May 21, 2003 Page 13 5. DRC No. 3820-03 - CENTRUM SOUTH New signage program for an existing 5-story office complex. 725 Town & Country Road Staff Contact: Chuck Lau, Associate Planner DRC Action: Final Determination Approved on the Consent Calendar) A motion was made by Committee Member Leonard Wheeler to approve the project as submitted. SECOND:Jon Califf AYES:Jon Califf, Leonard Filner, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES:None ABSENT:None ABSTAINED:None MOTION CARRIED N:AC D DAP L N G\Council Commissions Committees~DRC~DRC OS-21-03 drem.doc