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01-15-1997 Council MinutesAPPROVED BY THE CITY COUNCIL ON JANUARY 28, 1997 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING ORANGE, CALIFORNIA January 15, 1997 The City Council of the City of Orange, California convened on January 15, 1997 at 4:30 P.M. in a Regular Meeting in the Council Chambers, 300 E. Chapman Avenue, Orange, California. 4:30 P.M. SESSION 1. OPENING 1.1 PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG 1.2 ROLL CALL PRESENT - Alvarez, Spurgeon, Mayor Coontz, Slater, Murphy ABSENT - None 2. CONSENT CALENDAR The items on the Consent Calendar will be acted upon by one roll call vote unless members of the City Council, staff or the public request the item to be discussed and/or removed from the Consent Calendar for separate action.PUBLIC COMMENTS - Consent Calendar Agenda Items: At this time, the Orange City Council will hear comments on the Consent Calendar items prior to their voting on the items.If you wish to speak on a Consent Calendar item, please complete a speaker's card and hand it to the City Clerk at the beginning of the meeting. Please identify yourself and the agenda item(s) you wish to address. The time limit established by the Council for speakers is three minutes per speaker.This agenda contains a brief general description of each item to be considered. Except as otherwise provided by law, no action shall be taken on any item not appearing in the following agenda.2. 1 Declaration of City Clerk, Cassandra J. Cathcart, declaring posting of City Council agenda of a regular meeting of January 15, 1997 at Orange Civic Center, Main Library,Police facility at 1107 North Batavia, the Eisenhower Park Bulletin Board and summarized on Time Warner Communications; all of said locations being in the City of Orange and freely accessible to members of the public at least 72 hours before commencement of said regular meeting.PAGE 1 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES January 15, 1997 2. CONSENT CALENDAR (Continued) ACTION: Accept Declaration of Agenda Posting and authorize its retention as a public record in the Office of the City Clerk. MOTION - Murphy SECOND - Slater A YES - Alvarez, Spurgeon, Mayor Coontz, Slater, Murphy Item 2.1 was approved as recommended.END OF CONSENT CALENDAR 3. REPORTS FROM MAYOR COONTZ - None 4. REPORTS FROM COUNCILMEMBERS - None 5. REPORTS FROM BOARDS, COMMITTEES, AND COMMISSIONS - None 6. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS 6.1 Presentation by a representative of the State Office of Historic Preservation to clarify and answer questions of the Council regarding the application submitted by the Old Towne Preservation Association to the State of California to list a residential/commercial area in and around the Old Towne area ofthe City of Orange on the National Register of Historic Places.Mayor Coontz announced as a governing body of the City of Orange they have no rights of jurisdiction over any decision that will be made at the State level regarding the application which was not submitted by the City. This meeting was scheduled for the benefit of the community and Council, as a land owner, in order to make a choice as to what will be conveyed to the State Board as well as political observations. Information will be provided concerning the listing process and the proposed district's impact to the City and property owners. City staffhas provided background information.The Assistant City Attorney disclosed Mayor pro tem Slater and Councilman Alvarez own real property in this area. However this meeting is for study session purposes only, and Council will not be making any decisions. Both Councilmembers may remain seated and may participate in discussion of this item. If there are decisions to be made at a later time, any possible conflicts will be researched.Marilyn Lortie, representing the State Office of Historic Preservation, gave the presentation. The National Register of Historic Places is the nation's official list of properties that are considered worthy of preservation. In California there are more than 10,000 buildings and sites listed in the National Register. The majority of them are found in commercial and residential districts.PAGE 2 l...___~CITY COUNCILMINUTES January 15, 1997 6. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS (Continued) The Office of Historic Preservation is funded partially by the Federal Government in order to administer the programs at the State level. The State receives the nominations making sure they are technically accurate and the properties are eligible for listing. The nominations are then sent to Washington where the National Parks Service has the ultimate authority for listing.The process for getting something listed on the National Register consists of filing an application. Under the law, anyone or any organization is permitted to file an application for listing a property or district. The nominations are submitted to the State Office and reviewed for their technical qualities. State Officers visit the sites to make sure the boundaries will be accepted by the National Register. When the nomination is ready, it is scheduled for a hearing by the State Historical Resources Commission which consists of nine people who are appointed by the Governor representing various fields of expertise, such as architectural history,archeology, and two public members. The Orange District was scheduled for February 14, 1997 meeting of the State Historical Resources Commission.When the district is scheduled, all property owners are notified and given an opportunity to comment, support or object to the listing. The property owners can vote on whether the district as a whole gets listed, but property owners cannot opt out individually. The district will be voted up or down according to whether or not a majority of owners object.If anyone objects to the listing, a notarized letter of objection needs to be mailed approximately two weeks before the meeting to be given to the commissioners. This is not the deadline for commenting. Anyone is welcome to comment at the February 14th meeting or a letter of objection can be brought to the meeting. Also, a person may object to the listing at any time before the district actually gets listed, which could be as long as two months after the February 14th hearing. If a person has questions about the properties in the district or raises an issue, the State will try to determine if the information is accurate. Everyone is encouraged to participate as much as possible. After the Commission makes their decision on February 14, 1997, and ifthey believe the district qualifies, then the nomination will be sent to the Keeper of the National Register. The Keeper is part of the National Park Service and has the ultimate authority to list it or not list it.Some of the benefits available to historic properties when listed in the National Register are the use of the State Historic Building Code which is a more flexible alternative to the Uniform Building Code which can save people money, and it allows respect for the historic qualities of the building. If a property is listed in the survey as significant, then the code is available. The one benefit reserved for National Register properties is the Investment Tax Credit for Rehabilitating Historic Property. This is available to income producing properties that are depreciable. For most people that live in their own house and do not rent it out, this is not available. However, if you have rental property and it is rehabilitated with a substantial amount PAGE 3 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES January 15, 1997 6.ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS (Continued) of work done on the property, you could qualify for a 20% investment tax credit, a dollar for dollar reduction of the tax liability based on the rehab costs. In Congress at this time there is a proposal to extend this credit to owner-occupied property so that it would not have to be income producing.The Mills Act has been used in a number of California cities, most of them on a landmark by landmark basis. In other communities there are 25-50 Mills Act contracts which allows the property owner to enter into an agreement to maintain the exterior appearance of the house, and in exchange for that, for ten years there is a property tax rollback.Grant funds are available to properties listed in the National Register, however there are not huge sums of funds available for grants.The most important thing about listing in the National Register is that is an honor and is objective evidence that your property is significant as measured against the national standard of what is significant.Regarding drawbacks, Ralph and Linda Zehner contacted the Office of Historic Preservation and asked questions on restrictions that would occur as a result of being listed on the National Register. The response was put in writing and read. Basically, for some people there will be tax benefits available, for most people it will be an honor to be designated, but since Orange has already been very careful to protect the historic character the listing will not add much of anything to what has already occurred in the City. This district has been recognized as significant and there have been means undertaken to assure the historic quality is maintained. In cities with National Register Listings they do not have design review, so Orange has a higher standard than many cities.The City Manager read the following questions submitted and Marilyn Lortie responded:What benefits does a property owner obtain via a district listing versus the listing of his or her property individually?Response: They are identical. The benefits available to a district contributor are those that are available to an individually listed property. You can either apply for a district status or you could list an individual landmark building.The City Manager commented the current Mile Square was mentioned as a landmark, and asked that it be clarified versus its recognition with the State.Response: I don't know if the term landmark is something that has not been used in connection with this district, but the Mile Square is recognized for its historic significance by the City of Orange in the General Plan.The City Manager clarified as oftoday there is no State or National listing for this historical landmark. Ms. Lortie indicated that was a correct statement.PAGE 4 I ~-- ._~-~-~ CITY COUNCIL MINUTES January 15, 1997 6. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS (Continued) By listing the Mile Square as a district, those properties within that district will not have to be individually listed? Response: Yes Restate the time line for people filing petitions and notices in opposition. Response: After the commission reviews the application, and assuming they recommend it as eligible, the State makes sure it is archivably stable which takes two-four weeks. It is then sent to Washington where there is a 45 day additional waiting time when anyone can submit their comments including a notarized statement of objection. Anytime up to the 45 days, the Keeper can receive letters of rejection. If a majority of owners object and the district is not listed, the commission may recommend that it be determined eligible for listing which means it' s significance would be recognized and have a category of "determined eligible" even though it would not be listed.Was the definition of eligible and listed adequate as outlined in the background materials?Response: I believe so.If a property owner owns three separate properties in the proposed district, how is his or her vote weighted in terms of the majority protest division in the listing process?Response: Each owner of private property gets one vote. If one person owns threeproperties,they still will get one vote. If there is a building that has twenty owners, each one of those owners will get a vote.How can the City of Orange expect future property tax receipts to be affected?Response: We do not have this information. It is up to the City how this will beimplemented.It is an agreement between the City and property owner. If the City feels there is a propertytheywanttofostertherehabilitationandcareof, it can be targeted for Mills Act benefits.CEQA - Does the formation of the District obligate the City to complete a Master Environmental Assessment of any kind? r-. Response: No, it is something the City can do ifthey want, but it is not required because ofthis designation. CEQA is administered at the local level. The State does not tell anyone how theyaretoadministrateit. Is there any required minimum threshold the City should review? Response: No. It is a local control issue. The County of Santa Barbara is working on this. Do all California cities treat historic properties similarly when processing the permits relating to properties for modification? PAGE 5 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES January 15, 1997 6. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS (Continued) Response: It is up to the local administration on how they administer CEQA. There is a huge variety regarding the way it is applied. The City Manager commented staff has contacted other cities, specifically Pasadena which handles CEQA the same as Orange. Are you familiar with the City's current structure, a staff review, Design Review Board, Planning Commission with appeals to the City Council? Response: Yes - nothing in this would require anything additional.Is it a requirement or a suggestion under the issue of a Certified Local Government that requires the establishment of a preservation commission?Response: Yes. A Certified Local Government is a community that has agreed to have a board,ordinance, be in the process of conducting a survey and in exchange for this status, the State passes through grant money to these communities. However, you must apply to be a Certified Local Government and the City of Orange is not. Until the City applies, there is no board required. What are the types of grants and amounts available to individual property owners and local governments? Response: Sadly, there is very little available. It is hopeful that the property tax credit for owner occupied residences might offer some benefit.If deemed appropriate, is there an opportunity for concerned property owners and/or the City to make a formal request that the Commission continue the proposed Old Towne Historic District to another date?Response: The policy of the Office ofthe Historic Preservation is that at the request of the applicant, an item can be removed from the agenda. Even if something is on the agenda, it is still open to the possibility of whether it would be continued. It is possible a request could be made to the Commission to have it be held at a later time.Could dates and meeting places be provided for the Commission meeting?Response: February 14, 1997 at 9:00 a.m. in Eaglerock.Is this the only place in the State where this commission meets?Response: No. They meet all over the State. The reason why the Orange District was scheduled for this meeting was in all the meetings held recently, this one is the closest to the City of Orange. The next meeting will be held in May in Sacramento, after that it will be in Ventura.Would you clarify who is involved in the decision making process?PAGE 6 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES January 15, 1997 6. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS (Continued) Response: The comments from the City are extremely important. Under the Certified LocalGovernmentprocedures, if the Mayor and Commission both refuse to help the district or property forwarded, then it cannot be forwarded to the Keeper. Ifthere is no CLG, then thecommentsarewanted, but they do not have the effect of stopping the designation. Since the Old Towne Preservation Association made application do they have direct control astowhethertherebeacontinuanceornot? Response: They can ask that it be withdrawn before the meeting. Anyone can ask that it becontinued. The discretion of the Commission is independent of the City's decision? Response: This is a public meeting and all comments and requests are welcome. Did the City formally contribute in any way in this application? Response: Ms. Lortie responded she did not have any dealings with the City in putting theapplicationtogether. How does the listing of a historic district impact property owners ability to modify, sell orotherwiseusetheirproperty? Response: There is no further restriction than what the City imposes at the current time. Thiswillnotaffectthesaleoftheproperty, the inheritance ofthe property on whatever restrictions you have on modifications, those will be what you will have as a result of this. The City Manager announced the public hearing will be held at Occidential College, 1600CampusDr., Eaglerock, February 14, 1997 at 9:00 a.m. Ms. Lortie explained this is a public hearing and the Commission will vote on this issue. Properties that are less than 50 years old - how would being in the district affect them?Response: If a property is a non-contributor within the district, this means it was built after 1940ormodifiedsubstantiallyafteritwasbuilt. However, that type of property within the MileSquare, if some action were proposed for that property would still receive some sort of review. How would a trustee who holds six properties for an estate be affected? Response: One vote. Why weren't property owners contacted before this went to the State? Response: The outline program regulations indicates people need to be notified 45 days beforethehearing. The National Register Program feels that 45 days is adequate notice. PAGE 7 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES January 15, 1997 6. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS (Continued) What must a property owner do to support or oppose the listing? Response: If someone supports the listing, letters of support need to be sent to the State. You don't have to send letters of support to accept the proposal. The only people that have to send letters, which is the way the law is written, are the people in opposition. A letter has to be written stating that you own the property (show address) and you object to the listing and have it notarized. You don't to say why or give any reason. If a property owner in a district does not receive notice, the National Register does make allowances for that. A letter must be written stating that you do own property in the district and object. The letter must be notarized. This will be counted along with all the other objections. After using the Mills Act or other tax breaks, at what time would a historic property need to be opened to the public? Response: Never. Is there a definition of historic? Is it always pre- 1940?Response: No - Historic for the National Register means it has to be at least 50 years old. It can vary, usually by historic we mean significant. It's old and important. The City Manager commented the City was formally notified of the application on December 17, 1996 and received formal notification of the February 14, 1997 meeting on December 30, 1996. Ms. Lortie explained the property owners received their notices on December 30, 1996, the City received their notice two weeks before that. Why weren't meetings held before there was an application?Response: Having a meeting a month before the commission meeting would give people an opportunity to think about what types of questions they would have. Ifthere are questions that were not answered, anyone can call.Council Questions Mayor Coontz: Regarding the process as it relates to those who object to the application and have to send in the notarized letters - what law is that?Response: Code of Federal Regulations 36CFR Part 60 What is the rationale for disallowing property in a Country where property ownership is so important - giving one vote to a property owner who has multiple properties?Response: I can't say - these regulations were passed in 1981. The City of Orange, as a public entity does not get any vote. This applies to all public entities.PAGE 8 I----n---- ---- CITY COUNCIL MINUTES January 15, 1997 6. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS (Continued) Regarding buildings that are non-contributing within the proposed district, it was indicatedthereshouldbelocalreviewafterthe fact?Response: I believe review already takes place, so this would not require any additional review.Mayor Coontz commented regarding the "Mile Square" people have asked what theverificationisofthelistingswithintheapplicationanditappearedthereweresomeaddressesmissingplustherearethosethatarelistedasnon-contributing - does accuracy or inaccuracy play any partin this?Response: Absolutely, we would like you to bring to our attention any instance of anaddressthatismissingormis-attributed, either as a contributor or non-contributor. Weneedasmuchinformationaspossiblesothefinalproductisas accurate as possible.This falls back on the City with budgetary constraints - this will take time to do.Response: Approximately two years ago I visited the site to determine whether the MileSquareDistrictreallywasaNationalRegistereligibledistrict. At that time we did make someproposedmodificationstotheboundariesbecausethestandardsfortheNationalRegisterwouldrequiretherenotbetoomanygapsandnon-contributing elements. The nomination has been sentouttoanumberofpeopleforcomments. Every effort will be made to correct any problems.Is there any possibility that the size of the proposed district would be reduced to take careoftheotherhistoricpropertiesthatareconcentratedincertainareas over others?Response: The proposed National Register District is reduced over the Mile Square and isnotasbigastheMileSquareandforthemostpartit is smaller.To what extent must property be rehabed to be eligible for the federal tax credits?Response: The rehab must be a substantial rehabilitation, the greater of $5,000 or youradjustedbasisinthe property.Use of the Historic Code and the Federal American Disability Act requirements-Response: Properties that are listed in the National Register are given some considerationfortheirabilitytomeettheADAstandards. There has to be an effort made to meetADA requirements.Councilman Spurgeon Regarding the school district property which was sold to Chapman University, the propertywasdevaluedconsiderablybecauseofthedesignationonit - do you find that happens on personalproperties? PAGE 9 1 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES January 15, 1997 6. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS (Continued) Response: That is not characteristic of properties listed on the Register. Properties within the Historic District maintain their value more than properties that are in comparable areas of age, but not official districts. Being in an official district has been shown to keep property values higher. Was there an enabling State legislation in order to implement this? Response: The Federal law was effective without enabling legislation, but there are many elements in the Public Resources Code that deal with the State implementation of questions regarding historic resources. Councilman Murphy Notification process - what did you use as a source from an address and ownership standpoint?Response: We submitted instructions to people filling out a National Register application telling them to use the Assessor's Records to establish the property owner's names and addresses.Mayor pro tem Slater If a property winds up in the district that is not contributing, but at one time it was because it is over 50 years old, could that property be made contributing ifit's put back to the way it was originally? Response: Sometimes. If an historic building was covered over with siding and it were removed and the building was revealed underneath, then yes it could be made a contributor again. But if the building has been altered a great deal with no more historic fabric left (exterior of the building), it could not be recreated and would not be a contributor.Mayor Coontz requested the address and telephone numbers of the State Historic offices for the public. Carole Walters, commented when the application was sent to the State by the Old Towne Preservation Association it was signed by Steve McHarris who is a member of the Design Review Board and is paid by the City.Mayor Coontz commented this has been checked by the City Attorney and there is no conflict.Questions from the audience:Is demolition of a property within the proposed district limited with the designation?Response: Demolition would be considered a substantial adverse change. There is already responsibility with the lead agency to look at a demolition of a historic property. Ifthe property has been considered historic, which the Mile Square Area is, a demolition would be looked at under that ordinance and it would be looked at after it is listed in the National Register.PAGE 10 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES January 15, 1997 6. ADMINISTRATION REPORTS (Continued) Interior of property - what about where there is a substantial change to the interior, although the outsideretainsthehistoriccharacteristics.Response: The California Environmental Quality Act does not apply to anything that is ministerial. If this is the way interiors are handled in the City of Orange than they won't be subjecttoreview.Wil Chambers, 242 S. Olive, asked for a confirmation :from Council regarding if all the property ownersthatreceivethenotice, if they do nothing then they are in support of it?Response: We would not consider that consent if they did not say anything. We ask for them to comment.Mr. Chambers further asked if they don't send a letter of support then they are not considered supportingit.Response: Right, that's true. Ifthey don't send a letter of support we would not assume they supportit.T. J. Clark, 811 E. Chapman, asked what about the older people, some who are blind and don't understandtheapplication. It has to be notarized and they can't make it out.Response: You can send it in un-notarized and it will be taken into consideration, but in order tobeofficialunderfederalregulationsitmustbenotarized. Ralph Linnert, 525 S. Glassell, ifthere are ten people who want to oppose it and they can't affordtohaveitnotarized, can you get ten names notarized? Response: I have no problem with that. Don Alison, lives outside the City, asked ifthe ballot failed in the one Mile Square how would itaffectthepossiblelimitationofthearea? Response: Ifthe property owners vote it down, the smaller district for the National Register, itwouldbedeterminedeligibleifthecommissionthoughtitqualifiedaswellastheKeeper. ItwouldeffectonlythesmallerareafortheNationalRegister. Corinne Schreck, on the boundaries ofthe first district, there are four pages of historic municipalcodenowthatnamestheexactboundaries, with the second district it goes into a different area _who is going to create the law for those people that are outside. Response: If the City desires to extend design review to them then they can, but it will not beautomaticallyextended. PAGE 11 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES January 15, 1997 6. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS (Continued) Mrs. Schreck - then for a period oftime if it didn't go through, we will have two different types of government regulating an overlapping area of two different districts which is extremely confusing. Response: This is a very large district.Carole Walters, commented she had a call from an Orange realtor concerned about their property being on the historic list. They said if your property is on the historic list and you want to sell it,and if someone wants to buy your house and does not want to be on the historic list for any reason, this could hamper you from selling your house easier.7. REPORTS FROM CITY MANAGER - None 8. LEGAL AFFAIRS - None 10. ORAL PRESENTATIONS - None 11. ADJOURNMENT The City Council adjourned at 5:50 p.m.0~~d CASSANDRA. ATHCART CITY CLERK JOANNE COONTZ MAYOR PAGE 12