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2012-12-05 DRC Final Minutes CITY OF ORANGE DESIGN REVIEW COMMITTEE MINUTES - FINAL December 5, 2012 Committee Members Present: Tim McCormack Carol Fox Robert Imboden Craig Wheeler Joe Woollett Committee Members Absent: None Staff in Attendance: Anna Pehoushek, Principal Planner Dan Ryan, Historic Preservation Planner Robert Garcia, Associate Planner Sandi Dimick, Recording Secretary Administrative Session — 5:00 P.M. Chair Woollett opened the Administrative Session at 5:06 p.m. and asked if there was anything to discuss. Principal Planner, Anna Pehoushek, stated if there were any items on the Agenda before them that the Committee chose to take action on without discussion, that the Committee could consider moving them to the start of the Agenda. Chair Woollett stated they could discuss the item and take action during the regular session. Committee Member Wheeler stated he would be recused from Agenda Items No. 5 and No. 6 due to the property locations. Ms. Pehoushek stated tonight would be the last night that she would be administering the meetings as her rotation was ending. David Khorram, Chief Building Official, would begin his rotation with their next meeting. She also added that it had been a pleasure serving as the Acting Administrator for the Design Review Committee meetings. The Committee Members reviewed the meeting minutes from the November 7, 2012 Design Review Committee meeting. Changes and corrections were noted. Committee Member Wheeler made a motion to adjourn the Administrative Session of the Design Review Committee meeting. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 2 of 27 SECOND: Robert Imboden AYES: Tim McCormack, Carol Fox, Robert Imboden, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. Administrative Session adjourned at 5:16 p.m. Regular Session - 5:30 P.M. ROLL CALL: All Committee Members were present. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION: Opportunity for members of the public to address the Design Review Committee on matters not listed on the Agenda. There were no speakers. CONSENT ITEMS: (1) APPROVAL OF MINUTES: November 7, 2012 Committee Member Wheeler made a motion to approve the minutes from the Design Review meeting of November 7, 2012, with the changes and correction noted during the Administrative Session. SECOND: Carol Fox AYES: Tim McCormack, Carol Fox, Robert Imboden, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 3 of 27 AGENDA ITEMS: Continued Items (2) DRC No. 4644 -12 — NV PROPERTIES • A proposal for a redesigned new metal handrail for the front porch to match the 1924 Spanish Colonial Revival building. • 1015 E. Chapman Avenue, Old Towne Historic District • Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, 714 - 744 -7224, dryankcityoforange.org • Previous DRC Reviews: October 17, 2012 & October 3, 2012 • DRC Action: Final Determination Historic Preservation Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, Dominic Masielo, address on file, stated the railing was pretty straight forward and they had discussed mimicking the circular pattern that was found on the building and to bring that idea to the railing. The gate also matched as they had previously spoken of more continuity. In terms of the plant material, he would be project manager at the site and he would ensure plants would be placed appropriately. Public Comment Buck Woods, address on file, stated he was in favor of the project and asked that the project be approved. Chair Woollett opened the item to the Committee for discussion. Committee Member McCormack discussed the use of plant materials with the applicant. Mr. Masielo stated as a landscape designer and architect there was some ambiguity when placing the plants in the field and placement on the plans. It was his intent that the plants were placed appropriately. He reviewed the plant list with Committee Member McCormack. Committee Member McCormack stated the plant list looked fine and it was good to know that Mr. Masielo would be on -site during the landscape phase of the project. Regarding the railing, the plans stated 3 /4 " thick wrought -iron rail. He was looking at the nominal depth and there was a little detail that would be the 3 /4" thick nominal side view, but it appeared the math should be called out as 1 ' / ". Committee Member McCormack suggested that the rails that hit the upright area (he pointed out the area on the plans), to be the same size because if it was smaller it was confusing; the 1 1 /2" was hollow and it would be open to the sky. That would eliminate the excess welding and allow for a nice bead in that area and provide for some dimension. Committee Member Wheeler stated on page LC -2, detail D, during the last two discussions he had suggested another type of hardware for the base of the posts; with the tension on the cables it City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 4 of 27 would need something different such as a compression strap on the top. It would be very unstable as presented. On the same sheet, detail B, he also mentioned that stucco should not be run below grade. He would leave those as strong recommendations. Committee Member McCormack asked if he would suggest a screed? Committee Member Wheeler stated a screed was not needed next to the masonry, but it would not hurt. Mr. Masielo stated that was a great point and he had seen it done different ways. Committee Member McCormack stated he would provide his drawing to the applicant on the rail detail he had spoken about. Mr. Masielo stated he had a skilled craftsman who would be doing his work and he appreciated the drawing. Committee Member Fox made a motion to approve DRC No. 4644 -12, NV Properties, subject to the findings and conditions contained in the Staff Report and with the additional condition: • The mid rail and top rail on the hand rail in detail C be 1 1 /z" wide to match the vertical supports. And with the following recommendations: • Detail D on page LC -2, the base be of a support that would resist any bending moment and that the stucco on detail D not go below the finished grade. SECOND: Tim McCormack AYES: Carol Fox, Robert Imboden, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 5 of 27 New Agenda Items (3) DRC No. 4635 -12 — CHOC & ST. JOSEPH HOSPITAL • A proposal for a way finding sign program for the CHOC and St. Joseph Campus. • 455 S. Main Street • Staff Contact: Robert Garcia, 714 - 744 -7231, rgrciancityoforange.org • DRC Action: Recommendation to the Planning Commission Associate Planner, Robert Garcia, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, Phillip La Blanc, address on file, stated the proposal was for way finding at the site and he was available for questions. Applicant, Waldo Romero, address on file, thanked the Committee Members for hearing the item and stated that the project had been in the works for a very long time and they were very proud of the construction that had been completed to date. The CHOC /St. Joseph's representatives were before the Committee to present their design ideas for the way finding at the site and it would be put into place to manage pedestrian and automobile traffic. He and the rest of the team were available for questions. Public Comment None. Chair Woollett opened the item to the Committee for discussion. Committee Member Fox stated one of the deviations from the Code in the proposed sign program was to memorialize an allowance of 17' high signs, but the proposal called for the tallest sign to be at 15' 4 ". Mr. Garcia stated in the original submittal the sign was a bit higher and he had left an allowance for any adjustments. Committee Member Fox stated it was a cushion for a sign program that would be in existence for a while. Mr. Garcia stated it would allow for additional signage as the hospital expanded or remodeled. Committee Member Fox asked about the signage adjacent to the site that was the St. Joseph signage on the other building. Was that proposed to be changed to match, as it was a very different style? Mr. Garcia stated there was not a proposal for changes to that site. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 6 of 27 Applicant, Chuck Coryell, address on file, stated they partnered with CHOC on the submittal that was before the Committee which he would refer to as Phase 1 of the sign program. He had anticipated that St. Joseph's hospital, within the next 90 to 180 days, would be before the Design Review Committee with a revision request to the signs that had just been pointed out by Committee Member Fox. They would propose to follow the same concept and program as the one before them. They had not expected a tremendous number of signs on the St. Joseph campus. The signs were nominal, and the signs proposed for the future would be attached to the building. As far as ground -based signs and those around their campus and across La Veta, they had anticipated some incorporation. The goal of the sign program, as St. Joseph co joined with CHOC, was to have a cohesive appearance of both medical centers and the medical campus at La Veta and Main Street. Committee Member Fox stated it was a remarkably good- looking sign program. She asked which color of blue was the existing blue, from the color boards, and what was proposed? Mr. Romero stated the 660 blue was the darker blue that would be incorporated into the CHOC building architecture; the shade lighter blue would be a contrasting blue for the logo; and the 287 blue would be used for the St. Joseph Health signage. Mr. Coryell stated St. Joseph Health was re- branded in California and Texas and there was a new logo with new colors and it was part of the change in signage. They would also be looking at something that would not be in great contrast to the CHOC lighter blue, but they wanted something that would be cohesive and still allow for contrast. Committee Member Fox stated she believed the contrast was great and she was not certain if the light blue was a color that already existed on the building. Mr. Romero stated the color that existed was a bit darker. Chair Woollett stated it was his understanding that any future signage would follow the proposed sign program and the regional branding would fit within the program. Applicant, Adam Luchard, address on file, stated anything along the arterials, along the street, and public access would follow the new program. However, due to St. Joseph's rich heritage and existing sign program some of their other signs would be updated but not in context with CHOC, but in context with St. Joseph's signage. The layout and fonts would be different. The sign with any significance for the main hospital campus would be the mast head at the east tower at the 5 th level. It was a stand -off sign with a white back drop. It would likely follow the blue with the white contrast and to a non - discerning eye it would appear very cohesive. Chair Woollett stated the proposal before them addressed way finding only and anything that was not way finding would not need to comply. Mr. Garcia confirmed that was correct. Committee Member Wheeler stated it was hard to determine which of the signs had internal illumination. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 7 of 27 Mr. Romero stated there was not any internal lighting. The material for the signage was a reflective vinyl and when lights hit the signs they would appear as illuminated. Committee Member Wheeler stated on page AG200 vs. page AG500, based on the simulation on page AG500, on the PBS1 sign pedestrian bridge the sign had not gone as far as the horizontal rail as it appeared on AG200. The AG200 sign appeared to fit more in line with the bridge and he wanted to ensure that the depiction on page AG200 was the one that would be used. The appearance of the AG200 depiction looked better. The Committee Members and applicants reviewed the drawings and agreed with the AG200 layout. Committee Member Fox made a motion to recommend approval to the Planning Commission, DRC No. 4635 -12, CHOC & St. Joseph Hospital, subject to the findings and conditions contained in the Staff Report and with the clarification to use the sign as it appeared on page AG200 to be the installation location for that sign. SECOND: Robert Imboden AYES: Carol Fox, Robert Imboden, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 8 of 27 (4) DRC No. 4643 -12 — ORANGE LUTHERAN HIGH SCHOOL • A proposal for the expansion of a two -story practice gym with no seating and support facilities, food service /kitchen area, and multipurpose rooms. • 2222 N. Santiago Blvd. • Staff Contact: Robert Garcia, 714 - 744 -7231, rgrcia @cityoforange.org • DRC Action: Final Determination Associate Planner, Robert Garcia, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, William Perkins, address on file, stated he was the architect designer on the project and with him was Tim Odle who was a member of the Lutheran High School Board. They were present to answer any questions the Committee Members may have. Public Comment None. Chair Woollett opened the item to the Committee for discussion. Committee Member Wheeler commented that on page 1 of the Staff Report there was a statement that enrollment would increase with this project. He asked Staff if that was correct? Mr. Garcia stated that was an error and should read "would not increase." Mr. Perkins stated there were no classrooms associated with the project. Committee Member Wheeler asked, in reference to the drawings for the project that had been approved a few years ago, if the heights of the wall would remain the same? Mr. Perkins stated yes. Committee Member Wheeler stated there was less of the north wall and the portion that was casting shadow was less. Mr. Perkins stated they had paid attention to the shadows and made modifications. Committee Member Fox asked if the corner was being held? Mr. Perkins stated yes. Committee Member Fox stated the wall would not be going any further over (to an area she pointed out on the plans). Mr. Perkins stated that was correct. The wall was jogged in a little. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 9 of 27 Committee Member Imboden stated in regard to the tower, one elevation was called out at 46' and the other at 32'. He asked where the height was being measured from? Mr. Perkins stated there was an elevation change from the field level and it was 32' from the highest point. Committee Member Imboden asked where ground elevation "zero" was? Mr. Perkins reviewed the drawings and pointed to where "zero" would be; 46' was from the lower elevation. Committee Member Fox stated the height was to keep it in line with the present parapet. Mr. Perkins stated that was correct. Committee Member McCormack stated the project was a final determination and he was reviewing page 4 for landscaping and it was noted that there would be 40 new or relocated trees and all trees removed would be replaced with a larger circumference tree. He stated there was no determination on the plans of which trees would remain. The existing trees should be noted "to remain" and the location of new trees should be noted "to be planted." The plans needed a bit more information. It was a pretty expensive proposition to state all trees replaced would be with a larger circumference tree. He wanted to ensure if that was stated in the Staff Report that it would occur, and there would need to be measurements taken of the trees removed and so forth. He understood the whole legend and had not really looked at the shrubs as it was up to their landscape architect to choose the plant material. He was concerned with the trees; for each tree shown there were three choices and if a contractor bid the job, he would be asking which tree and how many to plant. In looking at the site from a design perspective there were Queen Palm trees, Podocarpus, and Tristania, and if he was not mistaken the trees were underneath an overhead structure. Mr. Perkins stated the landscape architect they used generally listed the landscape in the manner shown. Committee Member McCormack stated the Queen Palm trees would grow beyond 14'. Committee Member Fox asked if there were openings in the overhead structure. Mr. Odle stated he understood what was being said and added that there would not be any trees planted that would be bigger than the area it was being planted under. Committee Member Fox stated those were in fact skylights. Light could get to the trees. Committee Member McCormack stated it appeared that the top of the overhead was at 16' -13" and the trees would need to be maintained at 12'. If it was a covered courtyard there would only be 6' foliage. He was concerned that the Kentia Palm tree would not take well to trimming. There was a notation to match existing Palms but it would be better to indicate what they wanted. The photos had the trees taller than the gym, which would be 45' tall. His biggest concern was City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 10 of 27 that the trees that would remain and those that needed to be replaced needed to be shown on the plans. Mr. Garcia stated the project could be bifurcated. Committee Member Fox stated there was a bio retention area in a little zone behind the structure and the residential properties. In the previous approval there was a note for planter landscape screening. The screening was not shown on the plans and she asked if there was an intent to screen the wall? That was what had been previously approved. Committee Member McCormack stated he was shocked that there was nothing there. Committee Member Fox stated she thought the landscape plan should be fleshed out a bit more. Committee Member McCormack said he agreed. He was reviewing the civil plan and he could not find the designative trees. Chair Woollett asked if Committee Member McCormack wanted to see the landscape plans prior to issuance of a Building Permit? Committee Member McCormack stated that would work. For the 40 trees that would be on the site he could not tell where they would be planted, and that needed to be clarified. Committee Member Fox stated she had just counted, and there were 40 trees on the plans. She stated there were Sago Palms and Kentia Plants that she had thought were paving tiles, but there would be no light coming to that area as the light would be covered by the Loquat tree. She had a concern that the plants would not survive. Mr. Odle stated along the gym edge there would be a ventilated sky light along the whole edge. The Committee Members reviewed the plans. Mr. Odle stated there was an existing trellis and there would be more added. Committee Member McCormack asked if it was an opaque top? Mr. Odle stated no, it was a standing seam roof with skylights and a skylight along the gym edge. Committee Member Fox stated the architectural theme that was started in the main structure and was being followed made for a cohesive campus and it was fabulous. There was a screen with signage, "Lutheran High Church School," and there was noted a trellis that the lettering would sit on. Mr. Odle stated there was an existing trellis. Committee Member Fox stated there was a lack of notes on the plan and it was hard to follow. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 11 of 27 Committee Member Imboden stated there was the trellis, skylights, and plant materials. He asked what was driving those elements and the relationship of where the skylights were placed vs. where the plants would be placed? Mr. Perkins stated it was more of a functional design and it had not tied in with the roof. With the roof of that size it created dark spaces and they wanted to provide for light sources. Committee Member Imboden stated there were no ties between the elements. He wanted to be frank with the applicant that the DRC Members had not had much time to review the project. It seemed that what was occurring in one area was not related to what was occurring on another area of the project and he was questioning the design. Chair Woollett asked which skylights he was referring to in regard to his concerns? Committee Member Imboden stated it was those depicted on the landscape plan. Chair Woollett stated in looking at page 3.2.1 the skylights were lined up with the columns to the north and that would seem to be the logical placement for them. Committee Member Fox stated there was actually an underlay system going on and she liked what was being proposed. Committee Member Imboden stated he had not seen the column notations before and he appreciated the clarification. Chair Woollett asked if the Committee wished to bifurcate the project to have the landscape plans return? The Committee Members agreed. Committee Member McCormack stated Committee Member Fox had pointed out something on the bio Swale and there needed to be planting in that area. Committee Member Wheeler stated if the previous submittal had noted planting in that space they should hold the applicant to that. Committee Member Fox stated they needed to be sensitive to the screening of the wall. Her concern was screening that had been there, between the structure and the residential properties, was completely gone. The previous approval had a wall there with screening called out. Committee Member McCormack stated a green screen with a vine on the wall would be a nice gesture to the neighbors. Trees in that area would be problematic in that space. Grape Ivy would cover that whole wall and he had done a project that covered a wall in two years. Committee Member Fox stated she would agree to that and she would be looking for screening on the wall. Chair Woollett stated to screen the view from the north would not occur with a vine on the wall. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 12 of 27 Committee Member Fox stated it would soften the view. Chair Woollett stated to screen from the north, what would they be screening from? Committee Member Fox stated some type of screen to mitigate the effect of a building being moved 44' closer to the residential properties. The mass of building was being moved closer and she had not seen the previous submittal, but was concerned with the need for screening. Mr. Odle stated they didn't have a large landscape strip and asked if they could use an Italian Cypress for that space? Committee Member Fox stated an Italian Cypress could be used if it would grow in a bio retention area. The screen would need to be determined. Committee Member Wheeler stated the applicant would need to go back to their landscape architect and come up with a solution. Committee Member McCormack made a motion to approve DRC No. 4643 -12, Orange Lutheran High School, subject to the findings and conditions contained in the Staff Report and with the following additional conditions: • Clarification needed to determine the top of the tower height. • Landscape plan shall be bifurcated and submitted prior to issuance of a Building Permit in order to address the statements in the Staff Report for existing and proposed trees, the bio swale, screening of the north edge, and a final determination on the tree that would be used. SECOND: Craig Wheeler AYES: Carol Fox, Robert Imboden, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 13 of 27 (5) DRC No. 4655 -12 — CITRUS CITY GRILL • A proposal for a new wall sign, to replace the existing wall sign on the restaurant. • 122 N. Glassell Street, Plaza Historic District • Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, 714 - 744 -7224, dryangcityoforange.org • DRC Action: Final Determination Committee Member Wheeler recused himself from the item's presentation due to the location of his business. Historic Preservation Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, Buck Woods, address on file, stated they would be making enhancements with a stand -off wall sign. The light would be subtle but beautiful. Public Comment None. Chair Woollett opened the item to the Committee for discussion. Committee Member McCormack stated he had some questions regarding the "raceway" and on the cross sections. He asked how it related to the other cross section and with the letter "Y" he thought there would be a problem with illumination as it dropped down too far. Mr. Woods stated that was a good point. The sign would not be too bright; it would stand off the wall about 6" and diffuse everything, and that portion might not be illuminated. The "Y" could be pulled up to stay within the confines of the rest of the signage. Committee Member Fox stated if it remained dropped with a solid backing to the letter "Y ", shaped the same, the desender would not have neon on the small portion that descended. Committee Member McCormack asked if the letter "Y" would look stuck on and how would it line up with the profile behind it? Committee Member Fox stated the portion that dropped would have the same shape behind it and it was 1" off of the orange backing with no illumination. Committee Member McCormack stated he thought the sign was beautiful, but that was just the one thing that bothered him. Committee Member Imboden stated at the end of the day the sign would appear bigger than it should be if it was halo lit. His personal opinion would be to reduce the sign just a little bit. Committee Member Fox stated there was a recessed area and asked how that would work? City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 14 of 27 Mr. Woods stated the sign would extend 3 ". Committee Member Fox reviewed where the surface area of the wall met the sign and stated the "Y" might actually hang down and hit the wall. Mr. Woods stated they would not hit the wall. The solution would be to hit the Xerox button and go with 15% less sign. Committee Member McCormack stated when the letters got too close to the edge, the halo was lost. Mr. Woods stated the "raceway" area could be expanded. Applicant, Steve Tsirtsis, address on file, stated if the "Y" was taken away it would turn into something else. Committee Member McCormack stated he loved the sign that was currently at the site. Mr. Woods stated it was dark and the sign was not visible at night. Mr. Tsirtsis stated the existing sign was made out of wood. Committee Member McCormack made a motion to approve DRC No. 4655 -12, Citrus City Grill, subject to the findings and conditions contained in the Staff Report and with the additional condition: • Reduce the letter size on the sign to fit within the 2' band of the sign. SECOND: Carol Fox AYES: Carol Fox, Robert Imboden, Tim McCormack, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None RECUSED: Craig Wheeler MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 15 of 27 (6) DRC No. 4656 -12 - TIDDLYWINKS • A proposal for new window and pedestrian signs for a new retail business. • 129 N. Glassell Street, Plaza Historic District • Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, 714 - 744 -7224, dryan a,cityoforange.org • DRC Action: Final Determination The applicant was not present when the item came up for presentation. The item was moved to the end of the Agenda. Committee Member Wheeler recused himself from the project's presentation due to the location of his business. Historic Preservation Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, Gil Viveros, address on file, stated they tried to go with the flavor of the area and they took elements from some of the other store fronts and added unique touches. Chair Woollett stated it was one sheet of glass and the logo was being applied to the glass to reduce the appearance of the painted side. He commented that what was blue was actually clear, but the colors that would show up on the sign were what was being presented. The lettering in white would remain white. The lettering would be applied to the glass. Mr. Ryan stated there were panes of glass and aluminum frames. Committee Member Fox stated the only "fake" mullion was the one that read "toys, games, fun, books." Chair Woollett stated there was tile that was right next to it and had a different color. He asked if that tile was compatible? Mr. Viveros stated the tile was very neutral and went with the flooring. Chair Woollett stated it seemed to him that the colors in the sign should somehow relate to the colors of the tile. Committee Member Fox stated the colors proposed for the signage were in contrast to the building colors. It was set -off by those colors. She wouldn't want to see the signage limited to the more drab colors, because those colors were not fun. Committee Member Imboden commented that he didn't quite know how he felt about it. At the end of the day, adding this (something he pointed to on the plans) to the store front would not make it any more compatible to the surrounding buildings. It had not made a statement about the period or the style of the facade. He questioned what was being done. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 16 of 27 Committee Member Fox stated she had seen other store fronts in Old Towne with the same treatment, with the window printing along the wainscot line. The proposal was a very modern way to present that idea. It was not a fake mullion because it was words. Committee Member McCormack stated the writing went along the metal frame. Mr. Viveros stated there was none on the bottom. They had the top boxes and they liked the idea. They had seen the same treatment on other stores in Old Towne. Committee Member McCormack asked what the color of the sign was from the inside looking out? Mr. Viveros stated it was the back side of the letters. Committee Member McCormack asked if they would see the letters in reverse? Mr. Viveros stated it would be the back of the letters. Committee Member McCormack stated it would be white from inside when someone was inside, and requested confirmation that the back was white. Mr. Viveros stated he understood that Committee Member McCormack was asking for the color of the backside of the decals. It would look like a sticker on a car window; the back of the sticker would be showing, whatever color that was. Chair Woollett stated on the decal on his car the lettering from the inside was backwards. Mr. Viveros stated it would be just the back of the decals and they would not be double -sided because the signage was oriented to the front. Going to any store, the inside view of the signage was the reverse of what was outside. Committee Member McCormack stated, for example, if the clock was against the glass the view from inside would be the back of the clock, just a black circle. Mr. Viveros stated it would be a backward sticker, and also commented that other store front signs had the same situation. If you went to "The Bruery" it would be the same situation from the inside. Committee Member Imboden stated the sign was a much stronger program than what was seen on other stores and it had a kind of artificial quality to it. Committee Member Fox asked what the artificial quality was? Committee Member Imboden stated it was a very modern facade with large sheets of glass and now the treatment was intentionally trying to have them appear smaller. Committee Member Fox stated the only thing that was dividing the glass was the one band of signage. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 17 of 27 Committee Member Imboden stated the band of turquoise was also dividing it. Committee Member Fox stated it was a pinstripe. It was not so much. Committee Member Imboden stated it was taking the ideas from the neighboring stores and applying it to the proposed store front. Committee Member Fox stated it was not taking it from the other stores. It was just a pinstripe next to the aluminum and that treatment was not found on the other buildings. If the traditional elements were taken away and the proposal was looked at for what it was, it was very modern and pulled the nostalgic type face and signage and placed it in a modern context with the modern facade. It was a great marriage. Committee Member McCormack asked if they needed the pin striping? Chair Woollett stated he liked it. Mr. Viveros stated the aluminum was so drab and with just the logo they added the pinstripe to add color and a vintage feel; it added a little bit without covering the whole window. Committee Member McCormack stated from inside the store it would appear just squeegeed on. Committee Member Fox stated it was outside the purview of the Design Review Committee to make a determination on what was seen from inside. The store owner should be allowed to put on whatever he wanted on the backside of the sign. Committee Member McCormack stated the public would be seeing the inside, and it was the intricacies of design. Committee Member Fox stated there were other stores that had the same type of signs. The Antique Depot had it. Mr. Viveros stated the reality was that patrons would not see that band. There was a half wall and there would be merchandise against it. The letters would always be a backwards sign from inside and there was nothing he could do about that. Committee Member McCormack asked if anything would be done with the canopy out front? Mr. Viveros stated they had not looked at that yet. Chair Woollett stated he felt the proposal should be approved. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 18 of 27 Chair Woollett made a motion to approve DRC No. 4656 -12, Tiddlywinks, subject to the findings and conditions contained in the Staff Report. SECOND: Carol Fox AYES: Carol Fox, Robert Imboden, Tim McCormack, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None RECUSED: Craig Wheeler MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 19 of 27 (7) DRC No. 4652 -12 — AMLI RESIDENTIAL • A proposal to redevelop an existing surface parking lot with a new 334 -unit apartment development. • 3537 The City Way (south of Doubletree Hotel) • Staff Contact: Anna Pehoushek, 714 - 744 -7228, gpehoushek(a cityoforange.org • DRC Action: Preliminary Review Principal Planner, Anna Pehoushek, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, Ken Ryan, address on file, stated he was present with a team of representatives to answer any questions. There was a bit of a scheduling issue; the project would be presented before the Planning Commission for the Mitigated Negative Declaration and a Variance. Due to the thoroughness of the DRC they brought the project before them as a preliminary review to gain input for the proposal. The project was looked at from a pragmatic angle and the entire team looked at how the project related to place making. They were asked by AMLI to very thoughtfully think about the project identity, uplifting the area, and to AMLI's mission statement of an urban lifestyle. The signage was referred to as branding and way finding and they wanted to integrate that into the architecture. It was exciting to think about who the site was being built for in an environment that was in an area of employment, shopping, and entertainment. The project was looked at from a contextual perspective to have the residential fit in and compliment other things that were going on. The project would be LEED certified. From a design perspective they were given the task of elevating and coming up with something residential for the area. The assignment was to add visual aspects to the project that would engage the project and uplift the area. Mr. Ryan walked the Committee Members through the project boards and explained the various areas of the project. He stated that instead of screened parking the proposal was for the use of a structure that had verbiage "Uptown Orange" that would appear and disappear based on where someone was looking at it from. The site would be a very social environment and there was a landscape palette that would complement the architecture. There would be an Administrative Adjustment for an aisle reduction and one was for a parking Variance. The 494 spaces would be provided for the hotel. After evaluation of the project and what the appropriate parking would need to be for the apartments and with a strong employment base, the site would allow for more pedestrian use of the site. Committee Member Imboden asked if the parking ordinance would allow for another story to the parking structure? Mr. Ryan stated the proposal would provide for 568 spaces and the ordinance required 690 spaces. They had also evaluated other comps in the area. Committee Member Imboden confirmed to meet the parking requirement the structure would go up another story. Applicant, Jason Armison, address on file, stated the proposed drawings showed the structure with the additional story and they wanted to go down one level. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 20 of 27 Committee Member Fox stated the current drawings showed the parking structure going beyond the building height and with the Variance would it be more in line with the building? Applicant, Nate Carlson, address on file, stated the residential garage could be modified. The hotel garage would remain. Mr. Ryan stated there would be several spaces in the hotel structure that could be paid for in the event additional spaces would be needed. Ms. Pehoushek stated she had not spoken to the Variance as that was not within the purview of the DRC. Chair Woollett stated the parking structure, if permitted, would come down in height and would be the same height as the apartments and appear different. The fins appeared to terminate with the thickness of the fin being visible, but on the south end of that it was wrapped around. From a southwest point of view the fin appeared wider because the corner was turned. Committee Member Imboden asked if that was intentional? Applicant, Brian Sevy, address on file, stated the typical fan was an extruded aluminum piece, about 10" deep and the last one had an extra extension. Chair Woollett asked if the fins were flat? Mr. Sevy stated they were an L shape with a 2" flange on the short side and 10" the other way, and where they would be attached. Chair Woollett asked if at any angle would there be visibility through the fin wall? Mr. Sevy stated the more "straight -on" someone would look to the garage, the more transparency the garage would have. Chair Woollett stated at some point the sloping levels of the parking garage would be visible. Mr. Sevy stated yes, the idea was to allow natural light in and to have ventilation. There would be light for security and the ability to see from the inside out. The garage would be a more open garage with a screen and depending on what angle it was viewed from it would appear more open or less open. Chair Woollett stated at certain angles it may appear that there was no screen. Mr. Ryan stated only for a moment; it would tend to always feel screened. Mr. Sevy stated the fin was an L shape and would always be visible. Committee Member Imboden asked what was the distance from fin to fin? City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 21 of 27 Mr. Sevy stated they were currently proposed to be 16" on center in the renderings. The fin was 2 ". There would be 14" of open and 2" of solid. Committee Member Wheeler suggested that the details for the fin and screened area be provided with the next submittal. Mr. Sevy stated they also had samples of the fin material that they could provide. Mr. Armison stated they were a baked on Kynar finish, similar to powder coating as opposed to a painted finish. From City Blvd. the view would be to the flat end of the garage and not the scissoring section; from the hotel side that portion would be visible. Chair Woollett stated the scissoring occurred on the north and south sides and not on the east and west. Mr. Sevy stated that was correct and most of the perimeter was level. Committee Member Fox stated there were some sloping sections on the City Blvd. side, from page A2 -1 there was definitely sloping. It was fabulous, and it was an animated living screen and fit into the area. It was very much in keeping with The Block with its theatrical presence and the fact that there was movement and car lights in the parking lot it would be even better. It was the right fit for that area of town. Committee Member Wheeler asked what the lighting would be for the screen? Mr. Ryan stated because of the animation and light from the cars and the openness they felt lighting was not needed. Mr. Carlson stated there would be lighting for the garage to keep it safe and illuminated and would glow from the inside out and provide for a halo effect. Committee Member Fox stated her concern with the landscaping elements was that in some of the renderings the plants blocked the ability to read the signage and there was some discrepancy with the number of plantings. The rendering with just the Palm trees punctuated it very well, but on the other rendering with the lower shade trees it blocked the view. Committee Member Imboden stated on the lighting he hoped that lighting would not be overlooked. In thinking about how a parking structure was typically lit, there would be white spots throughout the garage and that would not be appropriate. He had not known what the solution was and if it should be lit from the inside or the outside. The area was an evening destination and the lighting would be critically important in making the site what it should and could be. He strongly recommended that they look at ways to use the lighting to enhance that space and not just allow banal fixtures that were placed inside. Committee Member McCormack stated in looking at the Zoning and the General Plan Use designation for the area as "Urban Mixed Use ", he would preface his comments with the comment that he thought the proposal was great. One of the things that he looked at when he read "work force housing" and the attempt to reducing the trips by car, and one of the issues City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 22 of 27 would be for people who worked at The Block or at UCI for the need to travel to the grocery store. He had seen in San Francisco and other urban areas, for the lack of a better example the Fresh and Easy market. A place that they would not need to go four miles east to reach a grocery store. He asked how may residences would be built? Mr. Carlson stated 334 residences. Committee Member McCormack stated with two cars for each unit, and in calling the site a LEED project, he liked the parking structure being presented. He had seen parking structures that introduced "mixed use" at the store front base (ground level) and they would want people to walk there. They would not walk north and south, unless they might be walking to work. He was not certain whose purview it was to talk about the concept of integrating a commercial use at the ground floor of the structure. Ms. Pehoushek clarified that the "mixed use" zoning and the "mixed use" General Plan designation had not required every project to be "mixed use." The project before them involved the introduction of residential and then the market forces would bring forward another project with a grocery-type use somewhere else in that area. The project was looking at underutilized property and infill development. Committee Member McCormack asked if there was an Urban overlay for the area? Ms. Pehoushek stated no. Committee Member McCormack stated there was nothing in place to guide the applicants in urban design for the area. Ms. Pehoushek stated it was a pioneering project. Applicant, Michael Schrock, address on file, stated they were absolutely open to any comments regarding the streetscape. From Staff they had been told that AMLI was just ahead of the City's Street Tree Master Plan Update. If there were suggestions from the DRC on species and placement they would be open to those suggestions. Committee Member McCormack stated the architecture was one that began to match what happened at The Block and questioned how the landscape elements and Urban design would relate to The Block. Was there a gesture to compliment what was occurring there? Mr. Schrock stated on City Drive there was Dactylifera on the same street and they repeated the same placement. With the street scene they wanted to provide a buffer of landscape for pedestrians, an urban planting of tall grasses and Flaxes. They wanted a tree canopy to bring down the pedestrian "ceiling" and they added trees as an under - carriage under the Palm trees. Along the parking garage they used a more "boulevard" tree and they used Fan Palm trees, with a canopy tree for pedestrians. Working around the smaller scale streets they used smaller trees and to the hotel they wanted more shade and provided for a double canopy tree system. Committee Member McCormack stated generally with a street scene there would be some "traffic calming" and.in looking at the plants the interior plants were great. His biggest concern City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 23 of 27 was the edges. He liked the palette but he had not thought it matched the ground space in a civic manner; he looked at it and wondered if there would be on- street parking or were those the number of lanes that were needed on The City Drive? People would be living there; they would have windows to their living rooms and bedrooms open. He almost would envision that no one would want to live like that and no one would be walking on the street. He would want to explore diagonal parking and maybe lose a lane of traffic to enhance the streetscape. Aliso Viejo followed a 15' landscape set back and every place in Orange County and even in Los Angeles the minimum for a street front was 8'. For the beautiful palette that was being proposed it would languish over time. The Palm trees as proposed would have a 4' root ball and take up the whole planting area. The other issue would be to introduce some structural soil, some soil medium to allow the roots of the trees to spread out and not break the concrete. The sketches were great and it was a good attempt to make the area beautiful, but the ground conditions the plants would be going into would hamper them. The edge was a 95% compacted edge with trees punched into it and they would just be potted plants. His biggest concern was sustainability. The canopies would need to be over - managed and he would hate 10 years out for the site to take on a whole different look because there was not a large enough planting area. He had some really pragmatic concerns. The tree choice was fine, but the trees needed areas for roots to travel. Structural soil was expensive. An Urban Forest was being created. Traffic calming and traffic flows, were any of those things addressed? Ms. Pehoushek stated the location was a major arterial in the City of Orange and it was improved to the ultimate right -of -way. Committee Member McCormack stated he had not wanted to see a mini forest. The proposal was for a large plant in a small pot and from that simplistic point of view they needed to review that. In terms of the Palm trees and canopy trees, with the discrepancy of what was stated and what was depicted, the Palm trees would be maxing out in installation they would need to be above the shade trees. The intent was to have the Palm trees punch up and above and instead of 15 feet they should be 25 feet. The renderings had not matched the size trees as proposed on the plans. Would City Staff maintain the edge? Ms. Pehoushek stated no. Mr. Armison stated AMLI was a long term owner and operator of the property. They built and managed the property themselves and would take care of all the landscaping as proposed. They took care of the landscaping for the long term and they would have a crew that would be maintaining all the landscape. Ms. Pehoushek stated the City would enter into an agreement with AMLI for the maintenance aspects of the project. Committee Member Imboden stated some of the tree canopies that had been drawn were probably not acceptable as they were out somewhat wide and low. He was afraid they would be hacked off at the curb for traffic. Mr. Schrock stated the sidewalk was increased from 5' to 6' and the requirement was for 8' for urban areas. They wanted to have enhanced paving that came from the lobby and they were City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 24 of 27 entering into an agreement to maintain the paved areas. They could have tree grates in the 6' to have the trees pull away from the street and there would still be a 6' clear area. Ms. Pehoushek stated that would be something that would work. Committee Member McCormack stated what was proposed was a well designed layout and getting the tree in that promenade was a good idea. Adding the tree grates would help and having the roots go under the sidewalk would be a benefit. It was one of those things that always became a problem; the landscape would grow, the rendering looked great, lush and beautiful but reality dictated something else. Committee Member Fox stated the lushness was less in the other rendering; the rendering in some had more architecture that stood out. The architecture was spot on. Committee Member Wheeler stated it was refreshing to see architecture that would age well. He assumed that the complex on Main Street in Santa Ana was one of their projects? Mr. Carlson stated it was not their project. Committee Member McCormack stated in the spirit of giving back to The Block, on the five trees in the median he suggested using Mexican Sycamore trees to match the median that went all the way through. He had not had a problem with the trees on the residential side. Mr. Schrock stated he would like to have Committee Member McCormack's mock up and if there was a different species they would take his suggestions. Committee Member McCormack stated he liked that it was not a miniturization of trees, that the trees matched the scale of the architecture. Committee Member Fox stated there were trees noted on the plans that had not appeared in the renderings and it affected the way finding. There was a tree noted for planting in an area where the way finding for the hotel would be and some of those things needed to be resolved. She thought there should be fewer trees in front of the screening. Committee Member McCormack stated the trees could be maintained. Mr. Schrock stated the trees would be laced. Committee Member Fox stated the word "Orange" would never be visible from a vantage point that she pointed to on the plans, due to the trees and the full effect of the signage would be impacted by the trees. She liked the rendering with the Palm trees that just punctuated the landscape. Committee Member Wheeler asked if anyone else was concerned with the amount of sunlight that would be hitting the courtyards? From his rough calculation the pool would be in the shade from August to March and the cabanas would be in the shade all the time. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 25 of 27 Mr. Schrock stated they had done a shade analysis and the reality of pools today was that people wanted to be in shade more, the canopies would need to be in the shade. The deck chairs generally were placed along the pool deck, but now they were broken up more into conversation areas of smaller intimate spaces. More areas would be placed in the shade. Committee Member Imboden stated he had a concern in the amount of openness at the street scape. The majority were living units and to him it was not urban; there was a lot of glass right on the sidewalk. Maybe that ground level could be treated different. The outside space would not be used a lot due to the location of the apartment. Mr. Sevy stated the idea was more of an urban stoop. There were grade changes on the building and the building pad was flat and the street dropped. There were some steps with a low patio wall and they would use a buffer of landscape. Committee Member Imboden stated he would suggest more dimension at that lower level. He questioned if the resident's drapes would be drawn all the time, because people on the street would be walking by looking into their windows? If there was a way to provide a different feeling of separation, something more traditional with a raised stoop without large sheets of glass. The appearance was more retail. Mr. Sevy stated there was a unit that was the leasing office and a java bar, which emulated a more retail type space. Committee Member Wheeler stated there would need to be a way of getting the light and air in there as it was the only window wall. He suggested using window sills more as long as they met the light and air requirements. Mr. Sevy stated they could look into using the patio walls to provide for more screening. They could use smaller windows at the street level. Committee Member Imboden stated there were ways of solving the issue with an edge wall or changes in the glass itself. That to him was the weak spot in the pedestrian experience as it created a conflict there. The architecture was very nice. Mr. Schrock stated he had heard the exact opposite; it was refreshing to be asked to use less glass. Committee Member Imboden stated there was a huge development in Santa Ana with huge sheets of glass and then there were horrible cheap curtains pulled across and that had completely changed the look. Committee Member Fox stated at that complex in Santa Ana it was all retail at the bottom. Committee Member Imboden stated from the rendering in the proposed project he had wondered if they were proposing retail for that space. Ms. Pehoushek stated she wanted an overall feeling from the Committee Members of the large parking structure signs. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 26 of 27 Committee Member Fox stated the only reason the sign worked, the parking structure sign, was due to the proximity of The Block. She would not want other projects in other areas to use the concept. Ms. Pehoushek stated as a point of information that they were working with AMLI to come up with a fagade agreement to have the City have control to ensure that the sign always stated Uptown Orange and functioned as a City landmark. Committee Member McCormack asked, regarding the residential patio spaces, could there be lighting that was controlled by AMLI to light up the architecture? Generally there was a porch light that was on or some that were off and maybe they would provide a lighting element to light the site consistently, lighting that was not controlled by the residents. Committee Member Wheeler suggested some color in the lighting. Committee Member Imboden stated the discussion of having the City working with the applicant on the signage was interesting and a good thing. He agreed with the comments that it was a one time thing, not something that should occur elsewhere. There were times to look outside the ordinance if something was special enough to allow it to occur. Ms. Pehoushek stated with regard to the signage, the Code for multi - family residential signage allowed one 42" high monument sign and was geared to the typical suburban apartment complex. Most of the proposed signage would not be allowed from an ordinance point of view and they were looking at the project in terms of how to handle the signage as proposed in an Urban Mixed Use project. Committee Member Wheeler stated it was his feeling that the Committee was in agreement with the signage as proposed. He asked for clarification about the vertical fin elements near the leasing office. Mr. Sevy stated they had taken the fin grate that was used in the garage screen and placed them in other areas as accents. Mr. Schrock stated it was the idea to use the fin in a fountain -type setting that changed colors with LED lighting. A soft hotel lobby -type piece of artwork. Committee Member Wheeler asked if there was a bar area included. Mr. Ryan stated it was a social area with a BBQ. Mr. Schrock stated they incorporated lanterns and more "people spaces" with wall seating and pedestrian scale lighting. Mr. Ryan thanked the Committee Members for their input. The project was presented as a preliminary review and no action was taken on the item. City of Orange — Design Review Committee FINAL Meeting Minutes for December 5, 2012 Page 27 of 27 ADJOURNMENT: Committee Member Fox made a motion to adjourn to the next regular scheduled Design Review Committee meeting on December 19, 2012. SECOND: Tim McCormack AYES: Carol Fox, Robert Imboden, Tim McCormack, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: Craig Wheeler MOTION CARRIED. Meeting adjourned at 8:12 p.m.