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2011-09-07 DRC Final Minutes CITY OF ORANGE DESIGN REVIEW COMMITTEE MINUTES - FINAL September 7, 2011 Committee Members Present: Bill Cathcart Tim McCormack Craig Wheeler Joe Woollett Committee Members Absent: None Staff in Attendance: Leslie Aranda Roseberry, Planning Manager Robert Garcia, Associate Planner Dan Ryan, Historic Preservation Planner Lucy Yeager, Contract Planner Sandi Dimick, Recording Secretary Administrative Session — 5:00 P.M. Chair Cathcart opened the Administrative Session at 5:10 p.m. Planning Manager, Leslie Aranda Roseberry, stated there was a request that some of the Agenda items be reordered. There was a Planning Commission Meeting at 7:00 p.m. and she would ask that items 4 and 5 be moved up in the agenda in order to allow the Staff Planner to attend that meeting. Also for the Chapman University item, there was concern that not all of their entire team would arrive in time for their item; they requested to be moved toward the end of the Agenda. Chair Cathcart stated what they could do was to hear Verizon first, then items 4 and 5 could be heard with Chapman at the end. Committee Member Woollett stated if Committee Member McCormack was not present there would be issues with a quorum and The Bruery item would not be heard. Committee Member Wheeler stated they would need to skip the Chapman item as well. Committee Member Woollett stated on the Minor Residence Agenda item, he asked if the Minor residence had been declared a historic resource with the assent of the owner at the time? Ms. Aranda Roseberry stated was he asking if the owner was still the same owner? Committee Member Woollett stated someone could drive by his house with official authority and deem his home historic and go through the process to list it as a historic residence. Committee Member McCormack joined the meeting. Committee Member Woollett stated it could cost thousands of dollars in the process of doing that and it had not seemed right. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 2 of 22 Ms. Aranda Roseberry stated she could not remember the story about how they had gotten both districts in Old Towne and the process behind it. It was a grass roots effort, but whether it had to go to City Council or just needed a vote she was not certain and not sure if it required a vote from the homeowner affected. Committee Member Woollett stated as it appeared it should not have been listed historically to start with. The whole idea of someone having to come back later, and especially if they had not been involved initially, it was not an option on their part. Ms. Aranda Roseberry stated she had not remembered the whole process. Committee Member Wheeler stated he had been speaking with the folks at the OTPA booth at the Orange Street Fair and there was a picture of Janet Crenshaw, and apparently she was very ill and hospitalized. Chair Cathcart asked if there was anything further on the Agenda or any policy or procedural information? Ms. Aranda Roseberry stated there was nothing further and no policy or procedural information to impart. The Committee Members reviewed the meeting minutes from the Design Review Committee meeting of August 3, 2011. Corrections and changes were noted. Committee Member Wheeler made a motion to adjourn the Administrative Session of the Design Review Committee meeting. SECOND: Tim McCormack AYES: Bill Cathcart, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. Administrative Session adjourned at 5:22 p.m. Regular Session - 5:30 P.M. ROLL CALL: All Committee Members present and there is one open seat on the Design Review Committee. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION: Opportunity for members of the public to address the Design Review Committee on matters not listed on the Agenda. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 3 of 22 All matters that are announced as Consent Items are considered to be routine by the Design Review Committee and will be enacted by one motion. There will be no separate discussion of said items unless members of the Design Review Committee, staff or the public request specific items to be removed from the Consent Items for separate action CONSENT ITEMS: (1) APPROVAL OF MINUTES: August 3, 2011 Committee Member Wheeler made a motion to approve the minutes from the regular scheduled Design Review Committee meeting of August 3, 2011 with changes and corrections as noted during the Administrative Session. SECOND: Tim McCormack AYES: Bill Cathcart, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler NOES: None ABSTAIN: Joe Woollett ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. Chair Cathcart stated that there would be two items taken out of order. Item No. 3 and Item No. 4 would be heard after Item No. 2. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 4 of 22 AGENDA ITEMS: Continued Items: (2) DRC No. 4564 -11 - VERIZON WIRELESS • A proposal for a wireless facility consisting of a new 51' mono -palm, 12 panel antennas, and associated equipment cabinets. • 809 S. Esplanade Street • Staff Contact: Robert Garcia, 714 - 744 -7231, rgarcia @,cityoforange.org • Continued from DRC meeting of July 6, 2011 • DRC Action: Recommendation to the Planning Commission Associate Planner, Robert Garcia, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, Peter Blied, stated he wanted to congratulate the DRC for their ideas and the mold maker had been put to the test of creating the faux Palm tree; and it might even be called the Orange Palm. Ultimately they were presenting a better project and it was the intent to make the project better and the details had been cleaned up. He was hopeful that everyone felt comfortable with the proposal in order to allow the project to move forward to the Planning Commission. He was available for questions. Public Comment None. Chair Cathcart opened the item to the Committee for discussion. Committee Member McCormack stated the microwave had been really stealth the first time, and he asked if that was the big huge drum that was on the Palm tree? Mr. Garcia stated yes. Committee Member Wheeler stated at the previous meeting, and maybe he had misunderstood, but that the intention was the microwave was not really being considered to be installed. Mr. Garcia stated the applicant was seeking approval in case they wanted to install the microwave at a later date and to proceed with that approval as if it would be installed. Committee Member Wheeler asked if the applicant felt it was still needed? Mr. Blied stated due to the nature of the entitlement, Verizon preferred that the microwave be entitled at the time of the approvals and a final decision had not been made. The dead frond concept had not worked with the type of Palm species they were proposing and there might be some other suggestion for shielding the microwave dish. There was no room to install the City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 5 of 22 microwave in the area of the other antennas as it would cause disturbance with the two technologies so close together. They were at the mercy of the DRC with the installation of the microwave dish. Committee Member McCormack asked if the microwave dish could be lower? Mr. Blied stated he would need to speak with the RF engineers to see if a change in location could be made. Generally the microwave required line of sight and required 30' to 40'. Committee Member McCormack stated the new Palm trees that were being installed would be 30 -35'. Mr. Blied stated that was correct, however, those trees would be flanking the other tree and not in front of it. Committee Member McCormack reviewed the plans with the applicant. Mr. Garcia stated the overall height of the mono -palm was 51', and the height of where the proposed microwave dish would be installed was approximately 36 ". Mr. Blied stated he understood his concern was that the new trees would be blocking the signal of the microwave dish. Committee Member McCormack stated he had not thought that they would; he was questioning that the trees were not reflecting the height that the applicant was speaking to. Maybe it would be better if the dish was higher and that the Palm trees should be as tall as what was called out on the plans. Chair Cathcart stated if the trees were not as tall as the microwave dish that he would vote against the microwave and it was a matter of illustrating what was being proposed. Committee Member McCormack stated if 30 -35' was being called out and the microwave was at 36' he was okay that there would be adequate screening. Mr. Blied presented photo simulations of the site. Mr. Garcia stated with the proposed application there was Condition of Approval No. 3 that the accompanying Palm trees would be 35' brown trunk height. Committee Member McCormack stated if it was 30 -35' he had not had a problem with that. He wanted to ensure the drawings reflected what was being called out. Committee Member Wheeler stated on some of the plan sheets there was still reference to dead fronds, on A2, A3, and A4. On the taper of the pole, and it had appeared from the drawings that it was the same, he asked if that had been changed? City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 6 of 22 Mr. Blied stated the pole had a slight taper, however, due to the structural engineering design they were not allowed to change the taper any further. The pole would need to be taller in order to taper the pole further. It had a 4" taper from base to top. Committee Member Wheeler stated on the bark texture, he asked if the Committee Members felt it was an appropriate representation? Committee Member McCormack and Chair Cathcart stated it was appropriate. Mr. Blied stated the overall affect would be better when it was wrapped in the shape of a tree. Committee Member McCormack stated that cut would go to a circular cut and he wondered how that would be done? Mr. Blied stated he had paid close attention to the natural trees in shopping centers around Southern California and that detail had not been addressed in their drawings; if it was a critical piece they wanted to review, it could be done. Committee Member McCormack stated if they were depicting what occurred naturally it would hit a pineapple or a ball and the Palm fronds came out of that with a collar for the microwave equipment. Chair Cathcart stated it was an improvement. Committee Member Woollett stated he recalled that the reason they had suggested the particular species of Palm tree was for consistency. They had realized that the Mexican Fan Palm tree fronds would not conceal the microwave, and whether the microwave was going to be used had seemed to be less likely than it was being presented with the current proposal. It appeared that where they were currently at was not where they had hoped to be. There was a microwave unit sitting there with no protection at all. If a microwave had to be significantly lower than the other equipment it would seem that it should be on another tree to be near the fronds for protection. Why go to a stealth unit and have a major antenna without protection? It made no sense. If it had to be far enough away it should be on another tree. If the type of tree proposed would never provide adequate protection for the microwave, then the specie of tree should be changed to allow the Palm fronds to cover it. Somehow the intent of their previous discussion had been lost. Chair Cathcart stated the manner in which it was being presented would lead him to vote against the microwave as it stood out like a sore thumb. Committee Member Woollett asked if the microwave could be adequately concealed with the Palm species proposed? Mr. Blied stated he had not believed that it would be possible. The Mexican Fan Palm tree was used widely for wireless applications, what had been found was due to the broader type of frond that they could not duplicate nature and the leaves would get blown to pieces with their higher wind resistance. The company that Verizon was using for the faux trees would not provide the City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 7 of 22 Mexican Fan Palms as they were having too many maintenance issues in the field and they had not wanted to put their name on a product with an inferior quality. Committee Member Woollett asked how far away had the microwave dish needed to be from the other equipment? Mr. Blied stated 5' minimum. Committee Member Woollett asked how large was the nut portion of the tree? Committee Member McCormack stated typically 3 '/2 to 4'? Committee Member Woollett asked if the microwave could be concealed in the nut? Mr. Blied stated it could be covered with an RF material and the nut or pineapple would need to be larger than typical, but it could be an option. The microwave engineers generally would not cover them, but there were materials that could be utilized. Committee Member McCormack stated the trunk came up and the nut was larger. The microwave could be placed in the nut with camouflage in front and it would be a done deal. Mr. Blied stated they could draft a condition that would allow the proposal to move to the Planning Commission and allow him to work through the details. Committee Member McCormack sketched the pineapple detail for the applicant and reviewed the size that the pineapple would need to be. Mr. Blied stated it was a reasonable compromise. Committee Member Woollett stated with the pineapple it was a result of how the tree was trimmed. There was not a natural size for the pineapple and probably varied quite a bit. Committee Member Wheeler suggested that they vote on approving the submittal without the microwave antennae and with a condition if the microwave was needed that the applicant could come back to the DRC with the design for a pineapple that would conceal the equipment. He asked how that would work with the Planning Commission submittal? Mr. Garcia stated it would need to return to the Planning Commission, as it was a modification of their approval. Committee Member Woollett stated they could come up with a definition for the concealment that could work for the DRC and the applicant. Committee Member McCormack stated the nut could be bigger, some were 6' and there would be parameters that would make it work. With the two live Palm trees that would be installed at the site, he had a change to a major detail. There was a pipe that would divert water away from the Palm trees so they would not die; the pipe was there to collect the water and with the current City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 8 of 22 design they needed filter fabric in order to not create a clog with the silt in the pipe. He presented his changes on the plan. Mr. Blied stated he believed that detail had been taken from Committee Member McCormack. Committee Member McCormack stated that might be correct; and he pointed out where the changes needed to be made. He would not want the trees to die. Mr. Blied stated they would work with Staff to clean up the details. Committee Member Woollett made a motion to recommend approval to the Planning Commission, DRC No. 4564 -11, Verizon Wireless, subject to the conditions and findings contained in the Staff Report and with the following additional conditions: 1. The pineapple of the tree be designed in such a manner as to accommodate the microwave antennae, but not to exceed 8' in length and 42" in height; at a ratio that was proportional to the trunk. 2. The Palm tree planting detail No. 3, page LI, to be modified as discussed. SECOND: Craig Wheeler AYES: Bill Cathcart, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 9 of 22 New Agenda Items: (3) DRC No. 4550 -11 — CHAPMAN UNIVERSITY HISTORIC CORE CLASSROOM BUILDING (HCCB) • A proposal to construct a new 2 -story building plus a basement, totaling 17,059 gross sq. ft., including 9 classrooms with up to 234 classroom seats, 2 seminar rooms, 1 lounge, 14 offices, storage, other support/ancillary uses, including an outdoor patio, and internal signage. • Vacant property on Chapman University's Main Campus, east of Smith Hall and southwest of Memorial Hall (Palm Ave. /Orange St. Intersection) • Contract Planner: Lucy Yeager, 714 - 744 - 7239, lyeager(a )cityoforange.org • DRC Action: Recommendation to the Planning Commission Chair Cathcart recused himself from the project's presentation as he was the landscape architect on the project. Contract Planner, Lucy Yeager, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, Ken Ryan, address on file, stated they had their team present to answer questions. The proposal was for core classrooms that they referred to as the missing tooth; the vacant property along Palm. It was located within the original Orange Lutheran High School (corrected by the applicant to say "Orange High School ") site built back in 1904. The intent of the project was to fulfill the historic plans that had been envisioned by the original campus designers. The vision was to mirror Roosevelt Hall, Reeves Hall, and Smith Hall and to include classrooms and office uses that were allowed in the academic planning areas of the Chapman Specific Plan. More importantly, it was reinforcing the architectures identity and respecting the historic and local context, complying with the Design Standards within the Old Towne District and to the Secretary of the Interior's Standards and Guidelines. They were also excited about the landscape plans with the addition of Magnolia trees and foundation plantings. They had met with OTPA and received favorable comments. They had also met with OBHS, and they had received favorable comments from that group as well. Public Comment Jeff Frankel, address on file, representing the OTPA, stated they had met and reviewed the proposal. The OTPA came to the conclusion that the project fit within the context of the campus, the historic campus and they were impressed with the preservation consultant that they had retained. The OTPA had gone through the design of the building and not creating a false sense of history with subtle differences between the new and the old structures on site. There were enough differences that would set the new buildings apart and there had been lengthy discussions. They were impressed with the building and the design and the OTPA approved of the proposed project. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 10 of 22 Mr. Ryan stated on the variance, and although that was not within the DRC's purview, it was important as it contained important design elements. The Specific Plan had a 20' setback requirement from the street and a height limit of 35', to adhere to that it would allow the building to be reinforced adequately and to fit in with the family of buildings and the request in the variance was to allow the buildings to be reflective of the other structures on site. Vice Chair Woollett opened the item to the Committee for discussion. Committee Member Wheeler asked if there was anyone present that was from the mechanical engineer's office? He was pleased that the DRC had been given two different roof plans; and they were conscious of ensuring that the roof equipment was screened. He was confused on the M -303 sheet, it appeared that the risers with the return that there was only one duct going to the first level. If he was reading their drawing code properly, there were quite a few A/C units dedicated to the first level; some of which are not anywhere near the duct chasis that went down to the first level. Case in point was A/C 14 over on the right hand side; he was not certain how the ducts would get down to the first level. The ducts that were labeled were not going down to the A/C units. Someone needed to take a look at that detail. Applicant, Bob Murrin, representing AC Martin, address on file, stated on section 502, sometimes the shafts had not shown up if they were in the ceiling and then disbursed, that would not appear in the floor plan. Committee Member Wheeler stated that was fine for the top floor but he had not seen anyplace where the ducts traveled down. It was something that they should look at. On the aesthetics, and one of the things he had always admired and enjoyed about the grass mall area, there was the beautiful Doric memorial hall at the end and what had been done with the paint recently had amplified that; the buildings that lead up to it were subtly Ionic and it made for a very nice composition. They were faced with not creating a false sense of history, but to him the design had gone a bit too far. In the new buildings they had lost any relationship to the Ionic buildings. There was the use of echinus -like forms on the capital's pilasters that had not had the curved form below it and looked very much like a Doric capital than an Ionic capital. There was a detail that had not matched the other buildings in their Ionic form and it looked like it was trying to be more like the Doric form. He suggested that they come up with something that reminded them of the Ionic and the other buildings in the grouping but not with all the fru -fru. Mr. Murrin stated anything was possible. It was a personal preference of interpretation and they had done a tasteful simplification of a representation of a capital. They could take another pass at it in interpreting the Ionic as opposed to the Doric. He was not certain if there was any historical comment on that at all. Applicant, Peyton Hall, representing Historic Resources Group, address on file, stated they were towing a very narrow line in terms of making the differentiation and they had listed in their report the number of differences to not have a false sense of history and to conform with the standards. The design chosen, they felt in their hearts was the right thing, it was sacred ground and it was a building that needed to be part of the original campus in design. During one of the many discussions that they had about differentiation and to whom it was important to, they had often heard in practice, either they wanted it to be similar or very different; and in whose eyes City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 11 of 22 and quite frankly it was in the eyes of people like Committee Member Wheeler. Students and people in Orange should feel that all the buildings belonged together in that space. It was the expert and professional who could see the difference and the thought was with the Doric expression that it was fairly subtle and most people would enjoy it without seeing the difference, but that it was to their advantage that some would see the difference. Committee Member Wheeler stated if they were coupling a Doric capital with a Doric entablature, but they were not. It was for people that appreciated the classical forms, but he felt that more respect should be paid to the architecture of the other buildings, to do their best to carry out the theme that had been set. Mr. Hall stated it would be possible to do a simplified Ionic. Vice Chair Woollett stated there were a variety of ways to have it be clear that the buildings were not built at the same time; perhaps the area they were discussing was not the place to do that with respect to the classical forms. Committee Member Wheeler stated, as one pundit said in 1931, "the most important contribution of classical architecture was the connection of the column to the beam." The capital was the prime statement of the order of the form and style and that was the last detail that should be sacrificed in order to not create a false sense of history. To find another area that would accept a change and without getting rid of that central item of the capital. Something that reminded people that it was an Ionic capital and not make it into something that it was not. Mr. Hall stated he liked to use the word "recall." Committee Member Wheeler stated he liked that word, to pay homage to the other forms without copying them. Vice Chair Woollett stated when the other buildings in the rectangle were built they were not authentic either, and he wondered if they were any less authentic in the current scenario. He was not certain they had to go further away. Mr. Hall stated they were staying close. Mr. Ryan stated the Roosevelt building had a lot to do with the direction and the discussions that they had. Mr. Hall stated they had the original drawings and that was where much of their direction had come from. It was a mirror image of what was across the hall. Committee Member Wheeler stated there were some pilasters on the south side that he very much agreed with. The back side of Roosevelt was rather "plain Jane," but was not very well seen. They had articulated the south side that faced Palm. Applicant, Bob Luther, landscape architect, address on file, stated that was an important part of the conversation and it was the thinking behind making the building reflect Roosevelt. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 12 of 22 Committee Member Wheeler stated the capitals on Roosevelt were sort of a mix between Ionic and something else and almost read as discs and not full dimensional items. They could recreate that form. When looking at Roosevelt from an angle it was seen was a disc form with a thickness to it. The other problem was that they would not want to create a parody of an Ionic capital. Mr. Hall asked would it be a plane or just cantered out? Committee Member Wheeler stated the Roosevelt had a pilaster that was fairly linear. The entry doors were somewhat different, the most common form was a single light French, but they were introducing a new form that none of the other buildings had with the divided light French. He asked if there was a reason for that? Mr. Hall stated it was not something that they wanted to emulate exactly and it was more in keeping with the divided lights that were on the adjacent buildings. Committee Member Wheeler stated the keystone was limited on the arch. He asked Mr. Frankel for his opinion on the Ionic? Mr. Frankel stated he had not seemed to have a problem; none of the people present during the discussion group were architects. They were okay with it and it was not part of their discussion, it was not brought up and he doubted anyone even thought of it. Mr. Ryan stated they had met with OTPA in the past and if there were those issues that really jumped out at them or had not felt right that it would have been pointed out. Notwithstanding Committee Member Wheeler's comments, the design had been thought to be subtle enough. Committee Member McCormack stated with the project in total he liked what was being presented and he had a few questions on the details. With the step up to the podium and the ramp requirement, he had done one out at San Diego Canyon College and it was quite challenging on how the ramp was incorporated and related to the building. One of the items he had noticed was that the treatment of the ramp should be looked to as not a civil requirement, but an architectural feature. It should not look as just an add -on, that the top should be just as thick and the ramp details should be looked at. On the planting plan would it leave an area as a deep well and suggested that it be brought up to the datum point; it could be planting or some other material that would be appropriate. They could add some plants or some rock mulch, or dirt as the zone was not defined and currently it was just a ramp, he suggested it be treated as an architectural feature. The City had issues with historical sidewalks and he suggested that the sidewalk details match the more historical sidewalks on campus. Mr. Ryan stated the long term plan, and they had old photos of the mall, the sidewalks that fronted the historical classroom buildings were currently wavy and in historical photos they were straight, very rectilinear. The intent was to pull them out and put it more of the straight sidewalks. Right now it was a mix and match of sidewalks. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 13 of 22 Committee Member McCormack stated in the City sometimes when sidewalks were replaced a joint was forgotten, and it appeared added in and that was a detail that they should not miss. On the south side edge there were flax against the sidewalk and the plants would get big. Mr. Luther stated there were some other elements involved where the flax was pushed forward for a screening element and there was not any other large planting materials. The flax was used to screen some of the irrigation equipment. Committee Member McCormack stated there was the flax and it all appeared to be at the same level. Mr. Luther stated there was a sidewalk that had gone through there and there had been a grade break in there; they had placed the planting to compensate for the grade break that was there. Committee Member McCormack stated his experience with flax was that it had gotten big and others that would be smaller. Mr. Luther stated it would not be a giant flax, it was in the 4' -6' range. Committee Member McCormack stated he would not want it to be overwhelming. On the Palm tree there was one right next to the sidewalk and the other pushed back. Mr. Ryan stated those were existing. Committee Member McCormack stated the other thing was that he agreed with the street trees, the Magnolia was on the south side and the more dominant tree and matched the Magnolias that were at the gate, however, he questioned the size. The 24" box would be at best a weak looking tree and it was fairly slow growing; he suggested that up against the building to make more of a statement as the 24" were small. It was a well done project. In working with the project, he suggested that the landscape architect be a bit more forceful to have the civil engineer change his No. 2 to No. 1, for the "construct per the landscape plan notes" on the plans; the landscape plans would show finishes and joints and the landscape plan would show a green book joint and a finish that was broom. The landscape architect needed to take control over that area and he would want that to be a condition. Mr. Frankel stated the City had a formula that they had developed for concrete and concrete finishes throughout Old Towne. As sidewalks were replaced they were using the new formula for scoring and he asked if the plan accommodated for that formula for the sidewalks in the project? Mr. Ryan stated they had used that formula when they restored sidewalks and he believed it was called top casting. Because the promenade had a smooth concrete they would match that and for the adjacent walkways that were new they would use the new formula. Committee Member Wheeler made a motion to recommend approval to the Planning Commission, DRC No. 4550 -11, Chapman University Historic Core Classroom Building City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 14 of 22 (HCCB), subject to the conditions and findings contained in the Staff Report, and with the additional conditions: 1. The architect make every possible effort to recall the Ionic form of the other buildings flanking the mall, to the architect's discretion. 2. The handicap ramp space between the ramp and building be treated in an appropriate fashion to match a similar condition on the campus or create a precedent for other access points on campus with planting or other treatment along the ramp. 3. The handicap ramp construction be guided by the landscape architect and architect, so as not to appear added on. 4. The landscape architect shall have control of the paving for finish and jointing. 5. The street tree along Palm be 36" box or larger. With an additional note to emphasize to the Planning Commission that approval of the two variances for height and setback would be very important in maintaining the aesthetics of the project. SECOND: Tim McCormack AYES: Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None RECUSED: Bill Cathcart MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 15 of 22 (4) DRC No. 4558 -11 — THE BRUERY PROVISIONS • A proposal to install a 528 sq. ft. outdoor patio at the rear of a beer /wine specialty food store. • 141 N. Glassell Street, Plaza Historic District • Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, 714 - 744 -7224, dryan(c,cityoforange.org • DRC Action: Recommendation to the Planning Commission Committee Member Wheeler recused himself from the presentation of the item, due to the location of his workplace. Historic Preservation Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, Mike Rue, address on file, stated he felt the proposal would be a significant improvement to an area that had little or no use currently. They invited the comments and input from the DRC on the design that they had put together. It would go well with what was inside the store and played a large roll in the design they were presenting. Some of the details such as lighting, specialty details, and the wood fencing details were to coordinate well and be complimentary with what was occurring inside the building. Public Comment Jeff Frankel, address on file, representing the OTPA, stated he was assuming that the Staff Report was the same as the Staff Report from the previous meeting and that nothing had changed. It was nice to see a planter box rather than a railing; it was refreshing as wrought iron fencing was harsh. It was to the rear of the building and that was also a plus. He agreed with Staff, and it was not a huge concern, but the detailing of the gate would be nice to see. Chair Cathcart opened the item to the Committee for discussion. On the issue of the gate design it was something they were all looking for. Mr. Rue presented the options, and his preference was for the gate shown in the upper right -hand corner of the options presented. Committee Member Woollett asked if all the mess of conduit of pipes and wires were considered historic on the back of the building? Mr. Ryan stated in the Design Standards there was information on when buildings were updated that any obsolete piping and conduit and so forth be removed and for some of those components to be located inside the building. On the Bagel Me building there was a lot of stuff on the outside that was cleaned up. Those issues were looked at. Committee Member Woollett stated he had not seen that requirement in any of the conditions on the project before them. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 16 of 22 Mr. Ryan stated he had not seen that the Selman building had a lot of extra stuff on it. Mr. Rue stated everything that existed was being used. There might be one line that was abandoned. Committee Member McCormack stated that the gate would need to be 42" high. Committee Member Woollett stated he would be inclined to require that an inspection be made and anything that was there that was not being used to be removed. It would take some doing. Committee Member McCormack asked if he was referring to the roof drains too? Mr. Rue stated there had been some type of vent originally there. Committee Member McCormack asked if there was anything stepping out that drained the roof? Mr. Rue stated it was probably a roof drain there and they would not want them in the front. Committee Member McCormack asked once all the water flowed out was there a curb, or were the double lines denoting a raised curb? Mr. Rue stated it was flush and a curb that was flush with the ground to keep the brick in place. Committee Member McCormack reviewed the plans with the applicants. Committee Member Woollett stated the telephone companies couldn't care less and they draped their wires all over the place. He had not seen such abominable carelessness with respect to low voltage lines as he had seen in Old Towne. It was absolutely inexcusable; with the Assistance League there were wires running all over the place and no one took responsibility. He was not sure why they had to live with those sins forever. He thought the project was great and what they wanted to see more of in Old Towne. The lines that were draped appeared to be low voltage and he asked if there was a way to confirm if the lines were active and not just leftover? If they made a condition was it enforceable? Mr. Ryan stated there was something in the Design Standards, but the question would be which lines were active and many times the telephone lines were still available but not active. Chair Cathcart stated the DRC could make that suggestion regarding the non - active lines. Committee Member Woollett stated if it was made as a suggestion it would be ignored. Chair Cathcart asked if he was adamant that there be a condition of approval regarding the non - active lines and equipment? Committee Member Woollett stated yes, he was one of three members. He thought it was a great project, but greatly compromised by the trash on the building. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 17 of 22 Committee Member McCormack stated it was a great project and there was a two and three rail fence being presented and he liked the three rail which would also adhere to the alcohol codes. There was an issue with the gate going around and tying back in and to have the gate go into the asphalt and not on top of it. The Ligustrum in the 14" wide planter would want a 3' wide space to grow; if they wanted to keep it 14" he suggested planting Boxwood spaced close enough, 12" apart in 1 gallon or 5 gallon. Chair Cathcart stated it was a great project. Committee Member McCormack asked on the string lights were they going through the building? Mr. Rue stated on the Ranch -style fence they could use the post of the fence with a finish point for the lighting. Applicant, Casey Rue, address on file, stated one possibility to clean up the sight was to put in a raceway to hide the existing wiring and it was an easy enough thing to do. It could be painted out to match the building. Committee Member Woollett stated sometimes the concealment was even worse. He asked if Mr. Ryan would be comfortable reviewing the raceway. Mr. Rue stated one thing that would help would be to paint them out, and it would help a lot. Committee Member Woollett made a motion to recommend approval to the Planning Commission, DRC No. 4558 -11, The Bruery Provisions, subject to the conditions and finding contained in the Staff Report and with the following additional conditions: 1. The wood fence be a triple rail fence and the gate be the design style with a diagonal cross brace. 2. All unnecessary piping and wire be removed from the building's exterior and that the Building Division confirm that the remaining wires and conduit are necessary and active. 3. Keep the fence on the brick pavers. 4. Substitute Boxwood for the Ligustrom hedge, planted 12" on center in 1 or 5 gallon size. SECOND: Tim McCormack AYES: Bill Cathcart, Tim McCormack, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None RECUSED: Craig Wheeler MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 18 of 22 (5) DRC No. 4581 -11 — MINOR RESIDENCE— HISTORIC SURVEY DELISTING • A proposal to de -list a "Local Landmark" rated Craftsman residence outside of the Historic District based on new research from an architectural historian. • 2450 E. Walnut Avenue • Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, 714 - 744 -7224, dryan(a-cityoforange.org • DRC Action: Final Determination Historic Preservation Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Committee Member Wheeler stated a client of his had recently hired Cynthia Ward to do a similar study of a project that he was involved with; he had not felt that was a reason for recusal. Applicant, Cynthia Ward, address on file, was present for questions. She provided additional photos for the Committee to review. She stated the dormers were added to the house and the porch railings, columns, decorative lions, and the pavers on the porch had been added over time. The windows had been changed out and the home was consistent with a 1950's era building permit. The front door had been changed and there was nothing original left of the front elevation. The sides had the roof line broken with shed dormers being added and there were four different window styles that had been added over time. The back of the house had a number of additions that had not resembled anything original. Public Comment None. Chair Cathcart opened the item to the Committee for discussion. Committee Member Woollett stated he understood that there was not an ordinance that directed a City to declare a residence historical. Mr. Ryan stated that was correct. There was not an ordinance that gave direction on either a local or national level. Committee Member Woollett asked how the home had come to be classified as historical? Mr. Ryan stated when the survey was done the City Council had also surveyed some of the outlying properties; it was brought to the attention in setting boundaries and there were larger farm house properties that were included. They took local criteria which allowed the properties to be listed as local landmarks. Committee Member Woollett asked if the property owner had any say in the matter? Mr. Ryan stated he could not answer that. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 19 of 22 Committee Member Woollett stated that it seemed strange that the present owner wished to have his property de- classified, however, he was not involved in the original classification and he now was subject to the time and expense of de- classifying the property and it had not made any sense. The homeowner should be able to go to the City and request that his property be de- classified with the burden of proof being the responsibility of the City and not the owner. Mr. Ryan stated in the downtown District there had been property owners who had wanted to be included or not included, that had not occurred with properties outside the district. Committee Member Woollett stated what he understood was that a City Council action had caused the classification of the property. Mr. Ryan stated the City had authorized the survey to be made. Committee Member Woollett stated he still could not understand why the property owner needed to go through the de- classifying process. Planning Manager, Leslie Aranda Roseberry, stated that it seemed Committee Member Woollett was trying to find the link between the survey and the action that the owner was attempting to undo. Perhaps the City Council accepted the survey, adopted the survey, and the survey had gone to the State; as normally there would have been an approval process. Committee Member Woollett stated they were setting a precedent and it was the justification of the whole thing; and to make an action would require some further research. Committee Member McCormack asked if a copy of the deed had been included due to some type of deed restriction? Mr. Ryan stated no, when a property was being reviewed it was common to review the title changes and an understanding of who had lived in the property to allow research in the historical archives. Committee Member McCormack stated there had been an instance where the City had allowed a home to have a 25' setback that was found in the deed of the house and the home had been part of an association in the 1950's that had restrictions regarding approvals when changes were made. He had not researched it legally; and information on that property had not been found in City records but through the deed. Mr. Ryan stated the issue in more recent times was when persons wanted participation in the Mills Act and that was the benefit. During the process they had found that some mistakes had been made in classification and the problem in the current case was that the home had been classified wrong. Chair Cathcart stated he agreed that he had not wanted to set a precedent, however, the situation was before them. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 20 of 22 Mr. Ryan stated the classification would be changing based on new information. Chair Cathcart asked why the matter could not have been an administrative issue? Mr. Ryan stated when they looked at the zoning ordinance that would be something that would be looked at. If the City wanted to take leadership in that role, rather than placing the burden on the applicant, that was something that could be looked at. Committee Member McCormack stated the home was historic; it was old and modified incorrectly due to improper oversights. Mr. Ryan stated the home was classified inappropriately. Committee Member McCormack stated if the home was in the District it would not be a contributing structure. Committee Member Wheeler stated he agreed that the home should not be listed as historic or a landmark, but there was a factor that had not been discussed. A fairly important person had spent his childhood in the home, Robert Weitbrecht, was born deaf and became a physicist and astronomer and was part of the Manhattan Project. He went on to produce devices that aided the deaf in communicating and he was instrumental in pushing for the telephone company to allow the hearing impaired to use the telephone lines. It was something that should be acknowledged and he would suggest or condition that the applicant put together a booklet with the property address and the name of the person he had referred to and with some photographs and information about the original homeowner. The booklet would include a copy of the Staff Report and the meeting minutes would be filed with the local history center. Ms. Ward stated she would be happy to compile that information; unfortunately birth places and childhood homes were not taken into account for historical listing of a property. Many times if a property could be kept on the national registry for a future owner to restore the property, unfortunately the property in question had been modified too much. Committee Member Woollett asked if Abraham Lincoln had been born in a home that was still standing today that the property would not be considered a significant place? Ms. Ward stated it would be locally acknowledged, and certainly someone with that level of importance could create landmark status; but someone had to be really, really important to have their birth place listed. Committee Member Woollett made a motion to approve DRC No. 4581 -11, Minor Residence - Historic Survey Delisting, subject to the conditions and findings contained in the Staff Report. The property had not met the criteria of being deemed a local landmark. City of Orange - Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 21 of 22 SECOND: Craig Wheeler AYES: Bill Cathcart, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange — Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2011 Page 22 of 22 ADJOURNMENT: Committee Member McCormack made a motion to adjourn to the next regular scheduled Design Review Committee meeting on Wednesday, September 21, 2011. SECOND: Craig Wheeler AYES: Bill Cathcart, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. Meeting adjourned at 7:37 p.m.