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2010-08-04 DRC Final MinutesCITY OF ORANGE DESIGN REVIEW COMMITTEE MINUTES -FINAL August 4, 2010 Committee Members Present: Bill Cathcart Adrienne Gladson Tim McCormack Craig Wheeler Committee Members Absent: Joe Woollett Staff in Attendance: Leslie Aranda Roseberry, Planning Manager Robert Garcia, Associate Planner Doris Nguyen, Associate Planner Dan Ryan, Historic Preservation Planner Sandi Dimick, Recording Secretary Administrative Session - 5:00 P.M. Chair Cathcart opened the Administrative Session @5:10 p.m. Planning Manager, Leslie Aranda Roseberry, stated there were no changes to the Agenda and nothing additional to report. ...,, The Committee Members reviewed the minutes from the regular Design Review Committee Meeting of July 21, 2010. Changes and corrections were noted. Committee Member McCormack made a motion to adjourn the Administrative Session. SECOND: Adrienne Gladson AYES: Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: Joe Woollett MOTION CARRIED. Administrative Session adjourned at 5:17 p.m. Regular Session - 5:30 P.M. ROLL CALL: Committee Member Woollett was absent. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION: Opportunity for members of the public to address the Design Review Committee on matters not listed on the Agenda. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 2 of 19 There was none. All matters that are announced as Consent Items are considered to be routine by the Design Review Committee and will be enacted by one motion. There will be no separate discussion of said items unless members of the Design Review Committee, staff or the public request specific items to be removed from the Consent Items for separate action CONSENT ITEMS: (1) APPROVAL OF MINUTES: July 21, 2010 Committee Member Wheeler made a motion to approve the minutes from the regular Design Review Committee Meeting on July 21, 2010, with changes and corrections noted during the Administrative Session. SECOND: Tim McCormack AYES: Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: Joe Woollett MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 3 of 19 AGENDA ITEMS: Continued Items: None New Agenda Items: (2) DRC No. 4499-10 - DENNY'S CAFE • A proposal to modify an existing sign program to accommodate signage for a new Denny's Cafe. • 133 Yorba Street • Staff Contact: Robert Garcia, 714-744-7231, r~arcia(a~cityoforange.org • DRC Action: Preliminary Review Associate Planner, Robert Garcia, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, Laura Grace, stated Denny's home base was in Spartanburg, South Carolina, and Denny's was America's leading family dining restaurant. They were in the United States, Canada, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Guam, and New Zealand, and they were proud to carry that title. Denny's began exploring an alternative model for consumers and how could Denny's fulfill what they had been hearing from their customers. Not everyone had an hour and fifteen ~~.,.,_ minutes for lunch; not everyone had an hour for lunch and the perception was that at a Denny's, people sat and visited, everyone wanted a Denny's in their community. She loved that they were that for folks. There was also that urban environment, that working person that they needed to pay attention to and provide the same Denny's motto to those consumers as well and the answer was a new Denny's Cafe concept. It would be a quicker service model, there would not be waiters and waitresses, it would be an order at the counter, or phone ahead. It would be food to go or patrons could sit at a table with a table number and the food would be brought to them. The Cafe was designed for end cap locations. It would be for those customers that Denny's was not getting. When they decided to roll out the Cafe concept they needed a location, and with all the focus groups and research, Orange County had become the priority. She was put to the task to seek out a specific location. She had seven South Carolina Executive Vice Presidents, from Denny's, out to the City of Orange for a week and they decided that Rusty Leaf Plaza, at the end cap that was formerly occupied by ReMax was their number one choice. With that being said, because it was their number one choice, it had to be a Denny's Cafe and they needed their image and their prototype as it would be something new to the consumer. They wanted the consumer to embrace it and she was thrilled to bring it to them. It was important that the prototype for the Denny's Cafe was represented in Rusty Leaf Plaza; and that was why she was present. She had worked closely with City Staff and it was a wonderful experience. They had gone through every road block and every opportunity to ensure that it would happen; but she could not stress enough that she was thrilled to be bringing the restaurant to the City of Orange. Denny's had committed to their shareholders that the new concept would be open before November 1, 2010, and they wanted it to be in the City of Orange. She passed out packets that explained the concept. Public Comment City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 4 of 19 None. Chair Cathcart opened the item for discussion to the Committee. Committee Member Wheeler asked if the menu would be the same as a Denny's Restaurant menu? Ms. Grace stated it would be pretty much the same, a bit abbreviated. When a customer walked in the door there would be an access way that led to a very unique menu board. Some of it would be digital photos that changed and a staggered photo menu boards. There would be a counter with cash registers, some bakery items, and there would be self-service drink stations. The floor plan was included in the handout she had distributed. Committee Member Gladson stated the applicant had mentioned that the location had an urban feel and asked for an explanation of what Ms. Grace had meant by "urban"? Ms. Grace stated that was one of the criteria; that they wanted the urban environment and to get the daytime employees. What they had learned about Orange and through the focus groups was that between the hospital and medical facilities and with the density to and from the freeway was that there was a lack of their type of use and type of food. The bright shiny penny that was out there, it was a place that people could have a meeting at, or feel comfortable reading a newspaper, and that became strong, the dense residential, the schools, the sporting facilities, the ~s: hospital and the medical; and all those things became wonderful. Committee Member Gladson stated the terminology "urban" meant pedestrian for her and she was a bit puzzled when the applicant had used that term. She had felt the area was not very pedestrian, but more automobile oriented. Committee Member McCormack asked if there would be outdoor seating? Ms. Grace stated yes, there would be patio seating on the west side. Committee Member Gladson asked if the cabinet form of signage was the only model for the branding for the Denny's Cafe. She wanted to know if there were other options for the prototype. Applicant, Patty Skoglund, address on file, stated her company had done the signage for Denny's and they had created the signage hand-in-hand with the architect. It appeared to be a cabinet, and she explained that the piece in the back needed to be added to the well known Denny's logo. It needed to be illuminated and needed to work at night. The elevation that faced Yorba was in a direct line of sight and there was quite a bit of study as to why the signs needed to appear a certain way. There was an alternative layout and they were using it on the pylon sign. It was a stacked, fine tuned sign, however, would not work the linear frontage of the 60' store front. The red would not be lit; it was intended for a background and allowed the word Cafe to work well. Committee Member McCormack asked on the pylon sign what would occur with the other tenant's signage? City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 5 of 19 Applicant, Michael Paxton, address on file, stated he had originally obtained the variance for the cabinet sign about five or six years ago coming before the DRC. The pylon signs were not very effective signs. He had spoken with tenants and they had stated that they would much rather have a Denny's move in and that no one really looked at those signs as people just drove by it. There were a lot of trees in the parking lot and many that had been removed from Chapman; it had been the reason that the sign was placed at that location. It had been six years and they had not topped the trees and were allowing them to grow above the sight line. When they began speaking about the Denny's Cafe, tenants generally had stated that they had not cared about the sign, but were more interested in generating traffic to the area. The sign had been paid for by the landlord and it was not a part of tenant lease signage. Committee Member Wheeler stated he understood the building had more than 400 feet of frontage and he asked if it would be possible to consider adding a small monument sign further down the street with individual tenant names on it? Mr. Paxton stated if it was allowed that would be wonderful. Mr. Garcia stated the street frontage was more than 400 feet and a second monument sign would be allowed. Mr. Paxton stated there had been a monument sign in that area prior to the street widening. Committee Member Wheeler suggested incorporating the theme of the center in the sign, possibly with a gable roof and it would be a nice way of not forgetting the other tenants. Committee Member McCormack stated he was a blade sign fan and pointed to an element in the shopping center and stated he felt there needed to be something there, a bell, a sign and it appeared as a frame without a picture in it. It faced Yorba and there was a lot of traffic on that street in going to the freeway. The people heading north on Yorba would not see the other sign until they were almost past it and he wondered if they could add something in the opening of that fixed structure? Mr. Garcia stated blade signs were prohibited in a commercial district, with the exception of in the Old Towne District. Going back to that particular monument that Committee Member McCormack spoke to, it had been in the original sign program and there had been a plan for it, he presented a drawing from the original submittal. The Committee Members reviewed the plan with Mr. Garcia. Ms. Grace stated they had initially wanted to use the space on that monument. Ms. Skoglund stated when they actually surveyed the monument, the space was very deep and they had thought to use it to hold signage; however, the sign would need to be extremely deep if it would be visible at all. Committee Member McCormack stated he felt it was a prime opportunity for two-sided signage; it would be seen from the street and from the parking lot. His thought was to use that space. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 6 of 19 Committee Member Gladson stated they would need to seek alternative treatments for the proposed blade sign. It was a cool element, but it was unlikely that the code would change. Committee Member Wheeler stated instead of a blade they could use some type of hanging sign. Mr. Garcia stated pedestrian signage was allowed, however, a hanging sign that would protrude out that could be viewed from both sides would be considered a blade sign. Ms. Grace stated the French diamond that was used in the Denny's logo was as widely recognized as the Golden Arches of McDonalds. Committee Member Gladson stated with the sign plan the tendency was to go a little bit overboard and she viewed the proposal as having too much signage. She felt people would not have a problem finding the Denny's Cafe. With a great pylon sign and the two wall signs people would find it. She felt the applicant had not needed to oversell what they had, and simplicity might be better. Ms. Grace stated signs were their identification and signs brought in traffic and customers. Committee Member Gladson stated she was the unusual customer that would come to the restaurant because they had a Grand Slam breakfast and not because they had 14 signs or 30 signs; she had not needed that much hitting her over the head because she knew what the `~ company was about. They would be on an end location and had prominence on the street and they had the pylon sign. She felt there was a lot of signage. She would want to see the other sign alternative for the prototype, the sign program that existed encouraged channel letters and the center had not looked as nice prior to that requirement. Ms. Grace stated that was not their first position and it was the reason they would be working on the re-write of the sign program for the program that dated back to 1993. It would be the first Denny's Cafe in the country. Committee Member Gladson asked if she was hearing correctly that they were revising the sign program for that shopping center? Ms. Grace stated it would be a revision of the current program. Mr. Garcia stated the program would be revised to allow for the proposed signage. Committee Member Wheeler stated he had a problem with the sign as the DRC had been very limited in allowing large cabinet signs. They had allowed cabinet signs for logos, but they had been pushing for channel letters everywhere else, and he suggested the use of channel letters for the Cafe sign. Ms. Skoglund stated that would be easy. Committee Member McCormack reviewed the signs with Mr. Garcia. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 7 of 19 Ms. Skoglund stated she wanted to address the comments made by Committee Member Gladson regarding the signage in the rest of the shopping center. The larger tenants had signs that fell outside of having individual channel letters and they were being conscious of what had already been installed there; the recommendation for channel letters for the Cafe sign was easy and they could do that. Committee Member Wheeler stated although the blade sign would be fun, it would be such a small sign on that large elevation it almost appeared inappropriate. According to the Staff Report, Chair Cathcart had pointed out to him, that under the existing sign program that canopy signs and pedestrian signs were permitted. Mr. Garcia presented a sample mock up of what was allowable for that type of sign in the sign program. The proposed sign was slightly larger than what was allowed. Committee Member Wheeler stated they could use a pedestrian sign under the canopy and it could be lit. He suggested that they consider the addition of the monument sign for the. remainder of the tenants. Mr. Paxton stated he agreed and would want that too. Chair Cathcart stated the item was presented for preliminary review and a motion was not necessary. He verified with the applicant that they had enough input and direction. Ms. Skoglund asked if the Committee Members were comfortable with the proposal for the awnings? The Committee Members agreed they were fine with the awnings as proposed. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 8 of 19 (3) DRC No. 4431-09 -WELLS CARGO SELF STORAGE SIGN PROGRAM • A proposal for a sign program at an existing self storage facility. • 224 N. McPherson Road • Staff Contact: Doris Nguyen, 714-744-7223, do uyen(a~ci oforange_org • DRC Action: Final Determination Associate Planner, Doris Nguyen, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Chair Cathcart stated there was a conflict between the Staff Report and the Zoning Administrator. Ms. Nguyen stated it was a direction request. The purview of the Zoning Administrator was for the sign height and sign area and the DRC needed to weigh in on the aesthetics. Applicants, Ray Tuohy and Bill Henigsman, addresses on file, stated they were .available to answer questions. Public Comment None. Chair Cathcart opened the item for discussion to the Committee. Committee Member Wheeler stated he had a few picky details; the sign program that had come before them and many other sign programs that came before the Committee noted clearly the locations of each sign. They could assign some sort of code, such as A1, to each sign and it would assist him when reviewing the sign locations. According to the sign program, there were two monument signs and one wall sign, but the drawings called out for a second wall sign on the south side of the building. Ms. Nguyen stated initially the applicant was going to paint over the existing sign and create a new sign and that had since changed. Committee Member Wheeler stated the Staff Report had information regarding painting of the existing sign but that was not noted on the drawings and needed to be documented. Ms. Nguyen stated they could include photos of existing and proposed, and of what area. would be painted over. Committee Member Wheeler stated on the first monument sign it was called out as 18.66 in area and he had calculated it to be 21.5 square feet. He drew it in CAD and the CAD number came up as 21.4 square feet; that placed the sign 17% over what was proposed. The sign was very irregular in form and all the dimensions were not shown and it would be difficult for anyone to check if the sign was built as proposed. The area needed to be checked. He checked the other sign, and it was not as critical as the sign area was not limited, but for the sign on Chapman the City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 9 of 19 Zoning Administrator limited that sign to 130 square feet and he came up to 138 square feet. He moved the north edge in 6" to bring it down to 130 square feet but it would really impinge on the sign space. The dimensions needed to be included on the drawings. He was a bit curious in the use of a time and temperature sign, as he had driven Chapman for years and the sign had not worked correctly or had not worked at all and asked if they really wanted to add a time and temperature sign? Mr. Tuohy stated there had been huge technological improvements in those types of signs and it would be digital. Mr. Henigsman stated the systems that were out currently were all LED and would last longer. Committee Member Gladson stated there was a sign on the end of the building oriented toward Grijalva Park and she asked if that would be left there. Mr. Tuohy stated as the City chose to close the road they had agreed to remove that sign as it had no value. They had moved to a larger sign as with the closure of McPherson they had experienced about a 7% drop in occupancy and they felt having better signage on Chapman would be a way to make up that loss. Committee Member Wheeler provided the drawings he had done to clarify dimensions to the applicants. Committee Member Gladson stated she was not certain what the sign design was attempting to communicate in terms of the imagery. She felt the logo was the strongest aspect of the monument sign; it had the nice look and identified the business. She was not certain what the imagery was attempting to convey with the sign shape, she had written down comments of "off- kilter" and "asymmetrical design". She had not felt that it would work. The angles felt awkward and gave her the feeling of being on a boat, or it was a place she would store a boat. Mr. Tuohy stated it was different. Mr. Henigsman stated the most beautiful sign had not always won; with a beautiful sign it fit the design of the center, fit the space, and could be entered into a contest and win, but those signs also blended in with every other sign on the street and they wanted something different. In driving up and down Chapman all the signs were typical and they wanted different. He wanted to come up with something that had not been done on the street and something that would attract people to read the sign. Committee Member Wheeler stated the DRC was charged with the responsibility to ensure that things were compatible. On one side they wanted consistency, and they needed balance. In driving down Chapman from Crawford Canyon to the freeway there was a lot of signage and almost every sign he had seen was symmetrical around a vertical axis. There had not been a single sign that appeared similar to the one the applicants proposed. It was clear that the sign was not compatible; they could do something that was fun and different, but had a bit more agreement with the other signs. To start, there could be one vertical edge, the southern edge, and it would have the same reference to other signs along the street, and on the north edge they could break out of that symmetry. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 10 of 19 Mr. Henigsman stated Ms. Nguyen had commented that there was a specific area that the copy needed to be contained in. Ms. Nguyen stated it needed to be within the architectural features. Chair Cathcart stated in the 1950's the angle of the building and the angle of the sign mirrored each other. The sign could appear more 1953 and he agreed with Committee Member Wheeler's comments. Committee Member McCormack stated his first reaction was that he liked that the sign was different, but the one thing that bothered him was that there was an image, and then there were other features that appeared to come from some other sign. It almost seemed that the Self Storage lettering should be placed differently and to use another font. He had looked at other signs and they could do something like the Johnny Reb's sign; they had a very thematic different type of signage, and to go with something similar to that. The font style should be different. The sign needed a common thread. Chair Cathcart stated he saw the sign as being more circular as that was the design of the company icon; they could wrap around the words "Self Storage" using a different font. They had not needed all the angles. Committee Member McCormack stated Johnny Reb's was recognized because it was highly `~¢ =~F thematic and that was what they wanted to have people attracted to their sign. The proposed sign was more distracting than attractive. Chair Cathcart stated there were a lot of signs that were square and rectangular running up and down Chapman, using a circular sign would associate their business with the shape of the sign. Committee Member McCormack stated Chair Cathcart had just hit on it, that could be their theme and the sign would be pulling its weight. Committee Member Gladson stated the purpose of a monument sign was to identify where to turn left. If she had never been to the site she would want to have that information. She would want that identifier. Committee Member Wheeler suggested enlarging the information on where to turn left or right on McPherson. Mr. Henigsman stated it was on the logo with the arrow. The self storage was the most important part of the sign. Committee Member Wheeler stated from a car going 40 mph it could be missed, and they might beef that up a bit. The Committee Members discussed different designs with the applicants. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 11 of 19 Committee Member Gladson stated the Zoning Administrator had allowed for a larger sign and that was something the applicant could design to and to recalculate the sign area correctly to ensure they were taking advantage of that. She asked if there would be lighting. Mr. Henigsman stated they could do LED lighting and many times people used LED for the cost savings between neon and LED, but with fluorescent lighting it was about the same cost, and his personal feeling was that LED was a much dimmer product and over time with heat, weather, and moisture, it tended to dim-over time. With the letters he proposed the use of LED, and for the inside of the logo the use of fluorescent lighting. Committee Member Wheeler suggested a continuance of the item to allow the applicant to incorporate some of the suggestions into a new sign design. Committee Member McCormack stated to have the sign be what the applicant wanted, but to have it be more thematic. Mr. Tuohy asked if they would be able to present at the next DRC meeting? Ms. Nguyen stated the deadline would be Monday, August 9 for the Staff Report and the City was closed on Friday which left only a day to perfect it. Perhaps the first meeting in September would be better. Committee Member Gladson made a motion to continue DRC No. 4431-09, Wells Cargo Self Storage, subject to the conditions contained in the Staff Report and with the input provided by the Design Review Committee Members. SECOND: Craig Wheeler AYES: Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: Joe Woollett MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 12 of 19 (4) DRC No. 4496-10 - RAHAMIM DUPLEX • A proposal to change the exterior finish from wood lap siding to stucco on a 1977 non- contributing duplex. • 150 S. Harwood Street, Old Towne Historic District • Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, 714-744-7224, dryan ci,cityoforan~e.org • DRC Action: Final Determination Historic Preservation Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, Edan Bar-Lev, address on file, stated they wanted to replace the windows as well, to new vinyl windows. The current windows were single pane, old black aluminum. In removing the old siding they wanted to install new windows to provide the property with a new fresh face. Public Comment Jeff Frankel, address on file, representing the OTPA, stated the building was non-contributing and the original siding appeared to have not been maintained through the years. There was a provision in the Old Towne Design Standards that addressed the siding; under non-historic structures it spoke about the rehabilitation of non-contributing buildings in using the design features of the original period. The siding was a design feature of the building and it softened the building rather than having a hard concrete surface. He had wanted to bring that point up as it had not been a part of the Staff Report acid it was on page 9 in the residential section of the Standards. Janet Crenshaw, address on file, representing the OTPA, stated the wood siding softened the very square building that took up the entire lot. Above all else it needed landscaping somewhere. Chair Cathcart opened the item to the Committee for discussion. Committee Member McCormack stated in reviewing the pictures, where the roof came down there was not an overhang; and in removing the wood it was nailed onto a framing strata and with stucco there would be metal, a brown coat and a finish coat which would be thicker than the wood. It would almost be flat with the fascia and leave no definition. Committee Member Wheeler stated they could add a second fascia. Mr. Bar-Lev stated they could do that and add rain gutters. Committee Member Wheeler asked what was proposed for window trim? Mr. Bar-Lev stated he had brought samples of the stucco and because the building was so boxy, adding trim made it boxier. The texture of the stucco would be relatively smooth. He had provided photos of other properties in the neighborhood that had the same stucco finish, and they City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 13 of 19 could make a comparison on how the windows and doors ended up looking a lot smoother with a stucco finish than the existing wood siding. Committee Member Wheeler stated there could be no window trim or he could use a small combed wood that appeared on homes in the 50's, but having no window trim would be a more appropriate treatment. Mr. Bar-Lev stated the property had 23 windows and doors and with trim it would be more cluttered. Committee Member Wheeler asked if there had been any consideration to use a more durable horizontal siding such as Hardie board? Mr. Bar-Lev stated it was an option, however, the expense was much more than stucco and the maintenance would be more with necessary painting over time. The property owner wanted something more maintenance free. The property was the sore thumb of the neighborhood and needed a face lift, but they had not wanted to knock down the building and build something from scratch. Committee Member Gladson stated the reality was that the building would not have been approved if it had been brought forth recently; it had been a building of the 1970's when pretty much everything was just go for it. The houses next door had a much narrower siding. Mr. Bar-Lev stated there were not many two story properties on the street and if they had gone with a narrower siding it would be very prevalent; he agreed that maybe the building should not have ever been built. Committee Member Gladson stated it was there and was anon-contributing structure and design- wise she wanted it executed well and to have consistency. She could be persuaded on a number of ways for treatment and she was not opposed to a stucco finish if it was executed nicely and she was interested in the texture and how it would be applied. Mr. Bar-Lev presented stucco samples to the Committee. Committee Member McCormack stated he was biased toward stucco and liked a more smooth finish. He had sketched a suggestion for the landscaping and suggested just to go minimalist and to use a vertical planting, and saw cut the very harsh sloping line of the driveway and to add a hedge. To add a very tight clipped hedge as there was not room to do anything more out there. Mr. Bar-Lev asked what if they used Cypress trees in pots, instead of cutting into the ground. Committee Member McCormack stated pots would not work as they relied on someone watering them. They could break up the concrete; they could add turf or stone to break up the expanse. Go 70's and embrace it. They could add vertical plants. Committee Member Wheeler asked what if they took out the solid railing wall and put in an open wood railing, or wrought iron railing? City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 14 of 19 Mr. Bar-Lev stated they had thought of that, however, there were two sliding doors behind it and it was very visible from the street. The railing was what instigated the remodel as it was in very poor condition and wobbled to the touch. It needed to be reframed and they could go with an open railing, however, with the sliding doors the property owner wanted something more solid. Committee Member McCormack stated they could put in a linear planter; they had planters that had a curve to it and would be very eye-catching. Mr. Bar-Lev asked if it should be a planter that was built in or something that sat on the wall. Committee Member McCormack stated he would suggest something built in. Committee Member Wheeler suggested building something that projected out a bit. Committee Member McCormack stated if they had a projecting element the lights could be hung below the projection concealed, and they would not need the sconces. Committee Member Gladson asked if the garage doors would be roll up doors? They could use something of a design element in the doors to break up that wall. Mr. Bar-Lev stated they would be molded garage doors. Committee Member Wheeler stated the stucco would be less eye grabbing than what was there and the building was so unlike any other Old Towne structures; it might be better to have the surface texture be as minimal as possible to have it blend away. Mr. Bar-Lev stated the property owners were friends of his, their son babysat him when he was a kid, and he had proposed all the things that they had spoke about. They wanted to upgrade before it got to a point where they needed to do too much and he was attempting to find a balance in upgrading the property. On the southern side the wood was really bad and there were not any rain gutters there. If he was a neighbor it would be a big eyesore for him. Committee Member Gladson stated they had not wanted to have huge structures and they wanted to add some landscape to soften it. She concurred with the suggestions of her colleagues, softening up the property and adding more green would go a long way. It could be a property that had solar options and it would be something that the property owner could look into. Chair Cathcart stated he could go along with the stucco and the landscape suggestions were not a requirement, but landscape and articulation of the hadscape to soften that side would be welcome in the neighborhood. Committee Member McCormack suggested saw-cutting a simple rectilinear pattern in the concrete. Chair Cathcart stated not to get carried away; Old Towne was concrete and the ground had been there a long time and if the concrete drive was in good shape it could be steam cleaned and saw- cut. He had not wanted to see painted blue squares, but softening in some areas with landscape would be appropriate. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 15 of 19 Mr. Bar-Lev stated the property was purchased with the concrete in place and he wanted to ensure the landscape would be at the discretion of the property owner. Committee Member McCormack stated they would not be able to get plantings without removing some concrete as they would need soil irrigation. He would not suggest pots, removal of the concrete edge and planting a hedge would work, there was not much more they could plant. Committee Member Gladson asked if they should recommend a percentage for landscaping. Committee Member Wheeler stated it would be difficult to calculate a percentage. Chair Cathcart stated if the property owner agreed to do any landscaping it would be an improvement. He suggested that if landscaping was installed that an irrigation system also be installed. Mr. Bar-Lev asked if they had a suggestion for stucco color? The Committee Members concurred something of a neutral color and that the stucco be more of a smooth sand finish. Committee Member Wheeler made a motion to approve DRC No. 4496-10, Rahamim Duplex, subject to the conditions contained in the Staff Report and with the following additional conditions: 1. The exterior be stucco, of a smooth or sand finish. 2. No window trim be added. 3. Where necessary to maintain the thickness of the barge boards that they be doubled up. And with the following recommendations: 1. Landscaping be added to the front of the house on each side of the driveway. 2. Planters be installed at the top of the railing wall at the front of the property to add a shadow line to the railing wall. 3. Landscaping in soil would necessitate removal of some concrete areas. 4. The concrete areas could be saw-cut to add a design element. 5. Irrigation to be provided for any new landscape addition. SECOND: Adrienne Gladson AYES: Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: Joe Woollett MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 16 of 19 (5) DRC No. 4498-10 - IMMANUEL LUTHERAN CHURCH • A proposal to expand kitchen facilities, storage areas, and new accessible bathrooms that serve the parish hall and school. • 802 E. Chapman Avenue, Old Towne Historic District • Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, 714-744-7224, d , an(a~cityoforange.org • DRC Action: Final Determination Historic Preservation Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Applicant, Jon Califf, address on file, stated he had some further background on the project to share. On the storage room that was called out as outside storage and the toilet room, those were related to the preschool at the south. Currently, when one or more of the children needed to use the restroom, depending on how many were there, the teacher would need to take those children over to the school restroom. The new restroom would provide a facility for the preschool as well as the storage area. The property storage was for the overall maintenance of the building and they were always looking for additional room for storage. On the addition for the kitchen, one of the notable features was the three-hour masonry wall that was a requirement to be placed between the addition and the existing building, which was courtesy of the sprinkler ordinance by the Orange Fire Department. As they were adding onto anon-sprinkler building, they would ~~,~.~, need to add sprinklers to the entire building, not add on, or install the three-hour separation wall. They had gone around on what the options were and the bottom line was they needed to install the additional wall. They needed to maintain a 30" parapet on that wall and it set the height of the parapet. The roof of the existing kitchen was being maintained on the addition. Originally the plan had been to remove the stained glass window, but from the inside of the hall it was an important feature. There were three along the south elevation and one along the north elevation. When they needed to install the masonry wall it made the maintenance of the stained glass element a bit more difficult due to the space constraints, but it was something they could work through. They proposed to add a plywood mock wall outside the window and they had chosen an LED linear fixture that they could slide down on a track from the roof to illuminate the stained glass. He pointed out the areas on the photos. They would design the area to be lit as much as they could and to use LED that would not require replacement often. The Staff Report mentioned the Health Department and they were designing to Health Department standards with few exceptions. Public Comment Jeff Frankel, address on file, representing the OTPA, stated the kitchen addition was sympathetic to the main structure and would not be very visible from the street when the future buildings were built out. He was concerned with the covering of the stained glass window as it was a character defining feature of the structure. It would disrupt the pattern of windows on that elevation, although the windows were not visible from the street. There were numerous projects that had been proposed that had done the opposite; to wall in the interior and the exterior element was still visible. The Standards only dealt with exterior elements. He had to disagree that the proposed change would not alter the windows character defining feature. It altered the City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 17 of 19 appearance of it and it was a concern. They appreciated the effort the applicant put forth to find another place for the parsonage. It appeared they were doing a good job in designing the future building. Chair Cathcart opened the item to the Committee for discussion. Committee Member Wheeler stated the Staff Report mentioned the doors on the south side would be metal doors, but had not noticed that notation on the drawings and the detail would need to be added. The drawings had not noted the stucco texture. He also had a thought that he wished could be passed onto the people at the church, that when the church had been repainted, there had been some strange decisions about what should be painted the highlighted color and what should not. He pointed out the areas where the details had been painted out on in the photos. Mr. Califf stated there were some very delicate stucco elements that had been painted out. Committee Member McCormack asked if there had been any thought to using a solar tube for the stained glass back-lit illumination? Mr. Califf stated that was the original thought. The problem was when they added the CMU wall it reduced the space they needed. They would need about 16" for a sky light solution. It would be mocked up and they would experiment with it until they got it right; it was not out of the realm of possibilities. Committee Member McCormack asked if the light would be on during the day time hours? Mr. Califf stated there would be multiple fixtures with controls over the light intensity. Committee Member McCormack stated trees covered the other two windows and that window would be the one that was lit. Mr. Califf stated trees covered the other ones; however, there was still natural light that came through. Committee Member Gladson stated that her recollection was that the windows in the hall were less elaborate than what existed in the sanctuary. The reality of the hierarchy was that the stained glass in the hall was more of a light generating element. Mr. Califf stated the stained glass windows were divided in an ornate pattern but were not very elaborate. Committee Member Gladson stated they were more for a light source and a reason for her to be more comfortable with the proposed project. Committee Member McCormack stated the applicant was going through a monumental effort to light a stained glass window from the inside, yet the other two windows were covered with overgrown plants. From a common sense standpoint wouldn't they want to evenly light all three of the windows? At night when the light came from within the church was a defining feature at City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 18 of 19 night. Would they want to modify the other windows in order to give a consistent appearance with a lighting treatment? Mr. Califf stated the trees were right on the foundation and possibly they would not be there in a year or two. Those could be replaced with something else that would not be so dense and that would allow more light from the outside. Committee Member Wheeler stated the pivot window of the stained glass might need to be re- hinged at the top in order to have a way of getting to the window area to clean it out. Committee Member Gladson stated on the existing kitchen she understood that the windows went completely away. Mr. Califf stated that was correct. Committee Member McCormack circled two areas on the drawings and asked for clarification. Mr. Califf stated in the world of 2D one area was the edge of the roof and it sloped back, and what appeared in the drawings was the face of the roof that sloped up. The other area would have a 2" metal cap. Mr. Califf reviewed the drawings with the Committee Members. Committee Member McCormack made a motion to approve DRC No. 4498-10, Immanuel •~~- - Lutheran Church, subject to the conditions contained in the Staff Report and with the following additional condition: 1. Metal doors and stucco finish be called out on the drawings. SECOND: Craig Wheeler AYES: Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: Joe Woollett MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for August 4, 2010 Page 19 of 19 ADJOURNMENT: Committee Member Wheeler made a motion to adjourn to the next regular scheduled Design Review Meeting on Wednesday, August 18, 2010. SECOND: Adrienne Gladson AYES: Bill Cathcart, Adrienne Gladson, Tim McCormack, Craig Wheeler NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: Joe Woollett MOTION CARRIED. Meeting adjourned at 7:17 p.m.