02-10-2010 - Minutes TC0 CITY OF ORANGE
CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION
Minutes of a Regular Meeting: February 1o, 2wo
I. OPENING
A. Flag Pledge
B. Roll Call
Present - Commissioners: J. Beil, N. Lall, M. Lebeau, W. King
Absent — Commissioners: L. Dick
Present —Staff. A. Farahani, D. Allenbach, W. Winthers, Sgt. B. Meissner, P. Then
C. Approval of Minutes
• December 9, 2009
ACTION: Approved as published by the Recording Secretary.
MOTION: M. Lebeau
SECOND: J. Beil
AYES: Unanimous
II. ORAL PRESENTATIONS
None.
III. CONSENT CALENDAR
None this meeting.
IV. CONSIDERATION ITEMS
1. Request for the removal of the "NO PARKING SATURDAY & SUNDAY"
restriction on Loretta Dr. at Larkstone Dr.
Elmer Reed
S. Loretta Dr.
Orange CA 92868
The oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your
copy. Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion.
• Victor Bullock - I'm not concerned with the parking adjacent to this
residence. I'm concerned with the south side of Larkstone Dr. that involve 5
houses, we had a restriction sign placed in 1993 Where they could not parking
between 9 am and 4:30 pm on Weekends because of the excessive amount of
traffic generated for various events held at the school yard. One morning I
went out and those signs had been taken down without any notice to
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residents, and I curious as to why that happened. There is a huge amount of
traffic there especially when there is a soccer tournament and we feel it is a
real safety hazard and people park extremely close together and some child is
going to run out into traffic from between those parked cars and it's really
hard for approaching traffic to see in both directions it's really hard to see a
pedestrian. Plus a quality of life issue, it's best to be not in your home during
that period of time when those activities are taking place.
Chairman Beil — Staff will investigate the removal of those signs and will get
back to you with their findings.
Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the
Commission for further discussion and a motion.
ACTION: Approved the removal of the "NO PARKING SATURDAY &
SUNDAY" restriction on Loretta Dr. at Larkstone Dr.
MOTION: N. Lall
SECOND: M. Lebeau
AYES: Unanimous
2. Request for the removal of a handicapped parking space on the 500
block of N. Orange St.
Betty Wells
N. Orange St.
Orange CA 92866
The oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your
copy. Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion.
Betty Wells — The handicapped parking was installed in front of our home for my
father and after he passed away we no longer need the blue curb. When he was
alive the students at Chapman used to park all over the neighborhood and he
would have to park far away and walk long distances, so this blue curb was really
beneficial to him, and I thank you for installing it for him all those years ago.
Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the
Commission for further discussion and a motion.
ACTION: Approved the removal of handicapped parking space on
the Soo block of N. Orange St.
MOTION: J. Beil
SECOND: N. Lall
AYES: Unanimous
City of Tape #CCC -3o.oi of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
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3. Request to add both sides of the ioo block of E. Rose Ave. to the
Downtown Neighborhood Permit Parking Area, (Area A).
Rogelio Reyes
N. Orange St.
Orange CA 29866
The oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your
copy. Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion.
Chairman Beil — From a history, why wasn't that little leg included? Was there
opposition from some of the residents?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — We're not really sure. Perhaps when
Orange St. and the section of Rose Ave. between Grand St. and Orange St. were
being included in the permit parking program the residents in this section were
not as severely impacted, and therefore felt they didn't need the permits at that
time. Apparently something has happened and it's reached that tipping point
and they can no longer park within a reasonable distance to their home so they
came to us at this time.
Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the time to the
Commission for further discussion and a motion.
ACTION: Approved the request to add both sides of the ioo block of
E. Rose Ave. to the Downtown Neighborhood Permit
Parking Area.
MOTION: M. Lebeau
SECOND: L. Dick
AYES: Unanimous
4. Request to:
a) Prohibit on- street parking on both sides of Shaffer St. between Chapman
Ave. and Walnut Ave. during school drop -off and pick -up times; and to
b) Install a marked pedestrian crosswalk on Shaffer St. at Sycamore Ave.
Janelle Hall
N. Shaffer St.
Orange CA 92866
Commissioner Lebeau — I would assume the logic for not installing a crosswalk
without some restrains is to keep pedestrians from getting a false sense of
security, is that correct?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Yes. Typically people see a crosswalk
and they interpret it as a safety device. In our business it is a channelization
device, it's merely considered an extension of the sidewalk. They are just two
strips of white paint that are 12 inches wide, they don't stop vehicles. We're
` City of Tape *CfC -3o.o1 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
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observing that when people are crossing Shaffer St. at Sycamore Ave. they tend to
stop and look both ways to make sure the area is clear before they proceed across
the street, which is exactly what we'd like to see them do. Shaffer St. is only 32 ft.
wide, it's not an Arterial roadway, it's considered a Local street, there are plenty
of gaps in traffic and we've seen no delays for pedestrians waiting to cross the
street.
Commissioner Lebeau — Thank you, I think that is a very sound policy. Is there a
marked crosswalk at the intersection of Walnut Ave. and Shaffer St.; and Palm
Ave. and Shaffer St.?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Yes there is, I don't believe there is a
crosswalk at Palm Ave. and Shaffer St.; however that is an All -Way STOP.
Chairman Beil — At the Department of Transportation our policy is exactly what
Dave mentioned, we do not like crosswalks. We deal with that very heavily down
at Pacific Coast Highway because many, many lawsuits are giving a false sense of
security in people. Either the person doesn't see the car or vice- versa, in any case
the person walks in front of the vehicle at the last minute. At the state we actually
have a program to try to remove crosswalks.
The oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your
copy. Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion.
Peter Grossenbacher — I'm in agreement with the City's position, to limit parking
on the street during those 2 periods of the day I think is ridiculous. Most of the
problem that I see is the cars parked waiting to pick -up their kids. Not a single
one had a parking permit and those streets are in a permit parking area, and their
aggressiveness of the parents trying to get their kids. The biggest problem is
people that are parking there illegally; for the homeowner's to be told they cannot
park there during the day would be too much of a burden.
Robert Isaac — I am opposed to the parking restriction. There are very few
bicyclists on the street during those times; the majority of the traffic are
pedestrians so the need for a bicycle lane during those times is minimal. A lot of
the driveways along the block are either very short or are truncated driveways
with gates that have been put across them, and a lot the homes have multiple
units and several cars and this restriction would force them to park on adjacent
side streets, increasing their traffic. If this is intended to enhance bike safety the
major concern to the small number of bicyclists going along Shaffer St. at that
time of the morning is just the overall narrowness of the street and the actual
speed of the folks taking their kids back and forth to school.
Judy Dingee — The amount of traffic during those hours doesn't warrant this
action, we're already restricted. The majority of the traffic is in the afternoon.
The morning they are drive -by, the parents drive up and their kids leave. In the
afternoon they park. We have a house behind us and we have one driveway, I
cannot block that driveway, it's against my rental agreement and I have nowhere
to ut my other vehicle. It's a major inconvenience to me and my neighbors
City of Tape #CrC -3o.o1 of this City Traffic Co mmissi on meeting is available for your review.
rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 - 553 6 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
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between Chapman and Walnut. I agree that the crosswalk gives a false sense of
security, but you've got to have a STOP sign there, there has got to be a 4 -Way
STOP there even without the crosswalk because of the speed that people are
driving up and down Shaffer St., people are driving 50 MPH. The amount of bike
traffic is minimal, children use the sidewalk, it's rare that I see a bicyclist in the
street unless it's an adult or college kids, the younger kids use the sidewalk.
Chairman Beil — Mr. Grossenbacher brought up the issue that a lot of the cars he
sees in the morning a people sitting in their cars waiting illegally parked. Is it
illegal if you stay in your vehicle is that considered a citable offence?
Sgt. Meissner — Normally we don't cite people who are parked if they are seated
in their car. If it is an illegal place to park and we come across it we can ask them
to move, but as a practice we don't cite people who are sitting in their cars.
Nick Greenko — We oppose the proposed parking restriction. We experience
similar things to what our neighbors have said. It would be a gross
inconvenience to anyone who lives there to have to move their vehicles during
those hours, and it's a very unsafe place during those hours, besides the traffic
and the speed the way the people will park in front of driveways and sleep in their
cars or wait, or dislodge passengers while vehicles are moving. We think this
restriction would make matters worse.
Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the
Commission for further discussion and a motion.
Vice Chairman Lall — I think staff has done an excellent job and the neighbors
have expressed their opinion very clearly and there are some issues there but it
does not seem that this parking restriction is a solution to those problems.
ACTION: Denied the requested parking restrictions and crosswalk.
MOTION: N. Lall
SECOND: M. Lebeau
AYES: Unanimous
5. Request for the installation of red curb markings in front of the Zion
Christian Center on the boo block of S. Cambridge St.
Denver McClellan
S. Cambridge St.
Orange CA 92866
The oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your
copy. Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion.
City of Tape #CrC -3o.o1 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 - 553 6 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
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Commissioner Dick — I had an opportunity to visit with Dave earlier and if I
understand it correctly they are requesting red curb is being denied by virtue of
the fact that there was no need found for it, and further discussion led me to
understand that there was not a lot of demand for parking in that area and if it
would make the church happy I don't want to say no to a church. Since this
doesn't seem to be an issue that would cause hardship on the surrounding area I
would be inclined to grant their request.
Chairman Beil — I don't live in the direct neighborhood but I live in the vicinity, I
drive on this segment of Cambridge St. all the time and I never see a single car
there. By the review of the request letter to me, it appears it is the members of
their own congregation who are parking there on Saturday and Sunday. It's just a
vision zone issue on their own people moving in and out of the driveways. Other
than that I never see a single car there.
Commissioner Lebeau — If there were a driveway vision zone here what would it's
length be? Going back to the inquiry letter it makes it sound like they only want
the red curb in front of the church structure as opposed as to both driveways, at
least that is how I read it.
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Typically we would implement our
intersection vision zone ordinance which is a 35 MPH street so we would put in
40 ft. adjacent to the driveway. Also I would like to point out that 50 ft. per the
request would leave an unusable space in front of this residence next door to the
church. 40 ft. would at least allow them one parking space in front of their house.
Commissioner Dick — I wonder if they really want a loading zone.
Chairman Beil — Their statement, "Cars parked along the curb make it difficult
to see oncoming vehicles whilst exiting the two driveways, causing an unsafe
condition." It is a vision zone issue.
Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — If I might add something. For the past
several years we have been trying to come up with an internal policy to look at all
of these vision zones and sight distance issues. As you know we have these all
over the City and it is very difficult for the City for their maintenance and the cost
just to install any request for red curb that we receive. That is one of the reasons
we look at accident history, and the need. Based on our investigation this
location doesn't demonstrate such a big need and it has no accident history
necessary to justify the installation of red curb.
Commissioner Lebeau — Has there been a speed survey of Cambridge St. in this
area?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Yes. This street is on our list. The 85th
percentile on this section of Cambridge St. is about 37 -38 MPH.
'b rang of Tape #CCC -30.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
Vrang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (7 744 - 5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
Public Works Department
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Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the
Commission for further discussion and a motion.
MOTION: I move we grant the request for red curb but to edit the request to
be approximately 40 ft. allowing the neighbors next door to have
access for parking in front of their home. (Commissioner Dick)
MOTION: May I offer a substitute Motion? Move to grant their request of red
zone in front of their church structure and not be extended in front
of the adjacent residences. (Commissioner Lebeau)
Vice Chairman Lall — Can we get staffs input on how that impacts what they're
doing?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — In looking at the driveways actually
there are faded ingress and egress arrows for both driveways inside the parking
lot here, so it's not as though one is being used as an entry and the other is being
used as an exit. The parking inside the lot is at a go- degree angle so actually you
can enter from either driveway. The way I interpret this letter is that they would
like it for sight distance coming out either of these driveways which indicates to
me they would like some red curb on the north side of each driveway.
Chairman Beil — That's how I'm seeing it too because as you're coming out of the
driveway you're looking to the left (north) so the elimination of that vision zone.
So we have a motion for a 40 ft.
Commissioner Lebeau — It depends on which driveway you're using, I agree.
Looking at the express language in their letter it is open to multiple
interpretations.
Chairman Beil — We have a motion for a 4o -foot and a substitute motion just to
eliminate that section north of the northerly driveway and just leave the red in
front of the two driveways of the Zion Center.
Chairman Beil - Was that substitute motion accepted?
Commissioner Dick — Absolutely.
ACTION: Grant their request of red zone in front of their church
structure and not be extended in front of the adjacent
residences.
SECOND: N. Lall
AYES: Unanimous
End of Consideration Items
` City of Tape #CrC -30.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
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V. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS
None this month.
VI. ADJOURNMENT
After discussion of today's Agenda the City Traffic Commission meeting was
concluded, and as there were no further requests for action under Oral
Presentations, the Chairman adjourned this session of the City Traffic
Commission.
The next meeting of the City Traffic Commission is scheduled:
5 :3 P.M.
Wednesday - March 10, 2010
Respectfully submitted,
CITY OF ORANGE
Phyllis Then, Recording Secretary
Traffic Engineering Division
then(& citvoforan¢e.or
CITY OF ORANGE
PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT
300 E. CHAPMAN AVENUE
ORANGE CA 92866
PH: (7 744 - 553 6
FAX: (7 744
City of Tape #CrC -30.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (7 744 - 5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
Public Works Department
February `10 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper