04-14-2010 - Minutes TC0 0
CITY OF ORANGE
CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION
Minutes of a Regular Meeting: April 14, 2010
I. OPENING
A. Flag Pledge
B. Roll Call
Present - Commissioners: J. Beil, L. Dick, N. Lall, M. Lebeau, W. King
Absent - Commissioners: None
Present - Staff: A. Farahani, D. Allenbach, W. Winthers, Sgt. D. Adams, P. Then
C. Approval of Minutes
• February 10, 2010
ACTION: Approved as published by the Recording Secretary.
MOTION: M. Lebeau
SECOND: N. Lail
AYES: Unanimous
ABSTAIN: None
• March 10, 2010
ACTION: Approved as published by the Recording Secretary.
MOTION: N. Lall
SECOND: M. Lebeau
AYES: Unanimous
ABSTAIN: None
II. ORAL PRESENTATIONS
None.
III. CONSENT CALENDAR
None this meeting.
City of
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Public Works Department
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission — April 14, 2010 Pg. 2
IV. CONSIDERATION ITEMS
1. Request to implement a Neighborhood Parking Permit Program on the west
side of the 500 block of S. Bedford Road.
Gabriela Moran
S. Bedford Rd.
Orange CA 92867
Chairman Beil — Asked for clarification of the proponent's letter requesting the
zone makes a statement that, "recent changes in parking by the city's 2 -Hour parking
limitation". When was that parking restriction implemented?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — That 2 -Hour time limit has been in
place for about 15 -20 years, however, recently our sign crew went out and in an
effort to reduce the sign pollution in the neighborhood they have readjusted the
location of the 2 -Hour time limit parking signs on that side of the street, so there
aren't as many. I think that is what the proponent was referring to.
The oral presentation is based on the written staff report, please refer to your copy.
Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion.
Victor Mollica — We have found that it's not so much people using the street to
park when they went to the bank and then come back out, but now it's an all -day
parking event. I understand they are trying to save some money. The people
began to park 2 -3 cars in front of each house, now you're blocking the street and
access in and out of the driveways. Some of the driveways are narrow and some
are 2 -car garage width driveway length. You cannot get in and out of the
driveway in a fairly large vehicle without pulling out nearly into the middle of
the street to turn into the driveway, and when it's blocked by someone
overhanging the curb that makes it extremely difficult. We have found that
people are extremely rude when we ask them not to block access to the
driveway, and it turns into a nasty confrontation and we don't want that, and
when you're inviting guests over during the week it became a nuisance not to
have any parking.
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Minutes of a Rei ular Meeting - City Traffic Commission - April 14, 2010 — Pg. 3 1
Iasmine Dominguez — I've noticed that people who park on the street have no
regard for the signs posted on the street that indicate 2 -Hour parking, or the no
parking on Tuesday's for street sweeping. So sometimes the front of my house is
not cleaned by the street sweeper because cars are parked there, and they get no
tickets. I've told them not to park on street seeping day and they tell me they
wont get citations, it doesn't matter. That is an annoyance to have the street in
front of my house not swept and other neighbors have said the same thing.
Having them block our driveway so we cant get in and out with ease, there is a
lot of cars going by there and other cars often don't want to wait for us to turn in.
Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for
further discussion and a motion.
Chairman Beil — I'm very familiar with that, I do a lot of business at OCTA and I
probably have staff guilty of not using the parking structure and going upstairs
to get a validation because they don't want to bother or take the time, they
probably have parked on the street there from time to time.
ACTION: Approved the removal of the "2 -Hour' time limit parking, and the
implementation of the Neighborhood Parking Permit Program on
the west side of the 500 block of S. Bedford Rd.; and forward to the
City Council for their approval.
MOTION:
W. King
SECOND:
J. Beil
AYES:
Unanimous
NOES:
None
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting City Traffic Commission - April 14, 2010 — Pg. 4
2. Request for the installation of an "All -Way" STOP control at the intersection of
Linda Vista St. and the west leg of Valencia Dr.
Adrian Turner
E. Valencia Dr.
Orange CA 92869
The oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy.
Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion.
Commissioner King — Didn't we hear this just recently? This same intersection?
Chairman Beil — The same area, a few years ago we had a parking issue along
here, at the back access to the school.
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst - Yes, I believe it was on Elsinore which
is the next intersection south, there is a stub street that goes into the back of the
school and parents were using that area for drop -off. We reviewed that a couple
of years ago.
Chairman Beil - One issue that came up when we last looked at this, the
widening work on Cannon St. on the front side of the school was underway and I
think the school principal said a lot more people were dropping off in the back.
Have we seen a change now that the Cannon street work is done? Are they
using Cannon more?
Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer - We have not reviewed the site but we
believe the traffic on Cannon has been relieved; the traffic is not as congested as
before. We believe there is still some drop -off in the back, we're not sure how
extensive that is.
Chairman Beil - Do you think we may get some indication of a speed hump
study?
Commissioner Dick - Is this the one that is a block from Elsinore, where there is
a 3 -Way STOP? With the notion of trying to keep traffic flow I was thinking you
would be frustrated after driving only a block. I drove it twice, both morning
and evening I didn't have a problem, but it might have been during spring break.
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting City Traffic Commission - April 14, 2010 Pg. 5
leffrgy Crussell - That intersection is literally a speedway. I brought my own
drawing. The red slash is where I believe we need some kind speed bump
control. The green line is a very vicious turn that people take ignoring the STOP
sign that is currently there, many times they hop the curb ending up in my
property and making the corner. The yellow dotted line is a run all the way
down from Katella that they make, turn the corner and come on my side of the
street at a very vicious pace all the time. Now I've come very close to being hit
on a number of occasions getting in my car, working in my front yard, standing
and talking to someone who is leaving my property. My property is really the
staging area for parents to pick up their children from that school. The drop off
has not diminished since Cannon has been completed, it's been a problem for the
entire 10 years I've lived there. At that corner, and you can't see it, under this
large tree on my corner children sit on the curb waiting for their parents to pick
them up and as these cars, and most of them are the parents dropping off or
picking up their kids, are on the cell phone, or are in an SUV that is far oversized
their ability to see, they flip the corner and someone is going to get hit there. We
also have a cul -de -sac and children play in that area and when people are coming
around that corner they don't see the kids on their bicycles. We may not have a
large number of accidents but as I live at that corner I see that we have very, very
aggressive drivers turn that corner and if something is not done there either with
or in addition to a speed bump, and a 3 -Way STOP, we're going to have an
injured child.
Lynda Armbruster - I echo the earlier speaker's comments, speed is the real issue
here.
Ruth Calvert - I've seen a lot of changes in traffic patterns over the years I have
lived here. There was a car that ended upside down on my curb, but please
don't put speed bumps in because we already have a lot of bumps. We have a
high - level, low -level road there, we have new ramping, and even people who are
doing sidewalks are up on a ledge. We're on a side of a hill so please don't
consider speed bumps because they would probably end back up in my house or
on my curb if they hit a speed bump. It is fast, and we see them whip down the
hills but we have to be careful of how many STOP signs are in that one block
area. I think a lot of this came about when they widened Cannon St. Before they
widened Cannon St. we did not have this on our residential streets, it all started
when they started picking up their kids at the back of the school.
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission — April 14,2010 Pg. 6
Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for
further discussion and a motion.
Commissioner Dick — I note the accident history did not meet the warrant of 3 or
more reported accidents for the previous 12 months. Was there an actual count?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — We reviewed the accident history for
the last 3 -year period, our warrants require a 1 -year review, but we go back 3
years and we found no reported accidents.
Commissioner Dick — We've had no reported accidents here for the last 3 years?
Vice Chairman Lall — There is a lot of traffic here, I'm certain there is a problem, I
think we're all clear that STOP signs aren't used for speed control it's for right -of-
way assignment. I think the applicant has stated himself that the STOP sign is
often times ignored so I don't think that is the solution to the problem. We had
another speaker mention speed bumps, and there is quite a difference between a
speed bump and a speed hump, I despise them both but I despise the bump
more. I don't see the STOP sign being a solution; we'll have to wait for a survey
to see if the speed hump will be the solution. If neither of these items proves to
resolve the problem, hopefully staff will delve further into this and perhaps
propose a better solution.
Chairman Beil —'Sergeant Adams, will this be an area where you feel it may be
beneficial to have a traffic officer patrol or monitor that area, as it is a school
drop -off and pick -up? I live by an elementary school and a few times when
officers are out it really makes a long lasting impact on the speed and behavior of
the drivers.
Sergeant Adams, OPD Traffic Bureau — I've made a note to send this to our traffic
supervisor. I don't recollect any direct complaints out there since the
construction, there may have been a few. I'm not sure if the proponent has called
to complain about the speeding or cell phone violations, but I will certainly pass
this on to traffic. Unfortunately with 26+ square miles to cover with 8 guys we
can't be everywhere all the time, but I will try to get this on the top of the list
during peak hours. I do believe we have a crossing guard here also in the
morning and afternoon, we will get some enforcement out there.
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting City Traffic Commission — April 14, 2010 Pg. 7
Commissioner King — Would it be possible, is there some signage you can install
on Valencia or Linda Vista that indicates "SCHOOL AHEAD — Slow to 25 MPH ", I don't
know the language you would use but is that a possibility?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Before we put in the 4 -Way STOP at
Elsinore we had two crosswalks, which are still there, crossing Linda Vista and
going southbound, there was a "SCHOOL XING AHEAD" sign and pavement
legend. When we put the 4 -Way STOP in we had to take off the legend and
"SCHOOL AHEAD" sign because it conflicted with "STOP AHEAD" legend. The
street is a prima facie 25 MPH, I don't believe we have a speed limit sign posted,
that is one thing we could do, it's not required because it's a prima facie speed
limit but if it aids the motorists in driving 25 MPH then that is something we can
look at doing. Possibly putting in a "CURVE AHEAD" warning sign both for north
and southbound direction, however, because this is a residential street primarily
the same people are driving it day in and day out. I don't know how much of a
benefit the warning signs will be, but certainly we could put in the speed limit
signs.
Commissioner King - I live over by LaVeta Elementary School and there are
signs all over the place, so I don't know how much good they would do.
ACTION: Denied the request for an "All -Way" STOP control.
MOTION:
L. Dick
SECOND:
M. Lebeau
AYES:
Unanimous
NOES:
None
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission - April 14, 2010 — Pg. 8
3. Request for the installation of red curb markings on the east side of the
driveway serving an apartment complex at 333 E. Meats Ave.
Anastasia Gora
Danta Point, CA 92629
Vice Chairman Lall — This request is for additional red curb to protect the
mailboxes at the street, there is red curb there already?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — That's correct, there is about 8 ft. of
red curb on the east side of the driveway where the mailboxes are located.
Chairman Beil — What are the rules on mailbox placement, I know the Post Office
has a lot to say about where they should go. Is there anything they can do with
the mailboxes?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — In Public Works we don't have any
regulations regarding the placement of mailboxes, however, these particular
mailboxes could be replaced with a cluster mailbox which stands on a pedestal
and covers a square with however many doors you need. If you want to keep
the same type of mailbox you could change their configuration, instead of 4
across you could build a frame and move 2 on top and that would give you a
smaller profile. If people are hitting the mailboxes, I would say the parkway is
quite narrow, it's only about 3-4 ft. wide, so there isn't a lot of room to move the
mailboxes back toward the sidewalk but you could certainly put them in a
different array. They could possibly talk to the apartment building next door
and combine both sets of boxes into one cluster box; they do share a driveway
with that complex.
The oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy.
Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion.
Anastasia Gora — My modest contribution to public safety is to apply and insist
for additional red curb. My tenants, my mailman and myself would like to see
this additional red curb. This is a very congested area and when people park in
front of the mailboxes they make it very dangerous for anyone that is parked
there.
Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for
further discussion and a motion.
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission - April 14, 2010 Pg. 9
Commissioner Dick — As I read the letter from Ms. Gora it says that her
mailboxes have been damaged by a parked car so does that mean they are
ignoring the red curb already? In which case anyone could make a call to Traffic
Control would result in them being ticketed.
Chairman Beil — I was curious in her comments if her demand was for the
parking because this is a very highly impacted parking area, a lot of these
complexes have 4+ units and there is no curb -side parking in this area and it's
probably in high demand all the time.
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — The aerial shows the existing red curb
in the area. There is some at Shaffer St., we have had requests at the intersection
in the past for some red curb and other things related to sight distance. At one
point we had a request for an "All -Way' STOP at Shaffer St. and Meats Ave.
related to an accident problem that was perceived to be going on there.
Chairman Beil — There was also a comment about the sight distance to Orange -
Olive Rd. which is in the opposite direction than the red curb on the right side of
the driveway would provide.
Commissioner Lebeau — I take that turn every day as part of my commute and
the lanes are narrow. Sight distance may not be the right term; it's just the
narrowness of the lanes and the street at that point. As the proponent mentioned
the cars are going quite fast. As a safety issue might be a moving car striking
parked cars right there might be the issue, I could see that happening, I don't
know if there's any accident history, I didn't see that here.
Commissioner Dick — I see we notified the residents within a 300 ft. area of the
impacted area, is that 40 people?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — I don't have the exact number but it's
fairly significant. There were at least 3 -4 apartment complexes and they all have
at least 3 -4 units. They all received notices of this.
ACTION: Denied the request for additional red curb.
MOTION: L. Dick
SECOND: N. Lall
AYES: Unanimous
NOES: None
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4. Request for the installation of red curb markings adjacent to the driveway
serving 1294 N. San Remo Pl.
Gloriane Conover
N. San Remo Pl.
Orange CA 92869
The oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy.
Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion.
Lynda Armbruster — This is really a moot issue, nobody has said anything to me
about this, I honestly didn't know that was what this hearing was about. My
neighbors never came over and said anything to me. It's my son's van and he's
getting rid of it anyway, it should have been gone today and it will probably be
gone tomorrow. He doesn't have a choice, I told him he has to get rid of it, it
would have been so much easier if someone had come over and told me it would
have been done a long time ago.
Teremy Conover — I approached Lynda's son directly since it is his vehicle and I
was instructed by him to move our trash cans on the outside of his van into the
street. However, her son who is home on a more frequent basis, we're asking
that at least 11 ft. of our curb east of the driveway be painted red in order to
accommodate our trash pick -up. There is approximately 13 ft. west of our
driveway and that is currently being used by our neighbor on the west side for
their trash cans on Friday. When they have their trash cans out it doesn't leave
us extra room in the area to use that space. We've been cited twice and have had
refusal to pick up our trash by CR &R and this has become a habitual problem
and van remains to be parked there 7 -days a week with the exception of street
sweeping (7 am —11 am) so hopefully this comes to an amicable resolution, if the
van is going to be moved fine, but I would still ask for the City's assistance in
this matter.
Ruth Calvert — I have an aversion to red curb in residential areas and the
precedent has been set, on Linda Vista there is a red curb for trash cans, for
multiple parking on that street. So precedent has been set in our neighborhood, I
don't agree with it. I think it can be resolved without the red curb.
Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for
further discussion and a motion.
Chairman Beil — This is the first time we've dealt with trash can congestion.
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting City Traffic Commission - April 14,2010 Pg. 11 1
Commissioner Lebeau - Given the proponent's statement, concerns and claims
that they have been cited and refused service for trash pickup I am hesitant to
adopt staff recommendation. We have someone who has influence over the
owner of the van telling us the van will be gone in a short period of time makes
me even less likely to want to vote on this matter tonight. I'd like to suggest we
continue this to next month to see whether or not this has resolved itself on its
own.
REVISED ACTION: A substitute motion to continue this one month to
determine to consider this matter, to see if the
neighbors can work things out.
MOTION: M. Lebeau.
2 11D REVISED ACTION: Continue for 3 months to ensure this issue is resolved
and not just for a short term.
Chairman Beil - Does the maker of the first revised motion accept this amended
motion?
Commissioner Lebeau - I accept the amendment.
Commissioner King - Just two comments, I hope this was taken in the best
interest of everybody. The van can be towed right?
Chairman Beil - It can be there for up to 72 hours.
Sergeant Adams - There is a 72 hour ordinance, however there are many ways to
get around the ordinance. Once we mark a vehicle it has to remain stagnate
before we can tow. Some people move the vehicle and as long as you move it
just a mile then that 72 hours has to start over. We cant just go out and tow it
after just one complaint, we have to go through the process, and a lot of the times
it doesn't work.
Commissioner Dick - I don't want anyone to misunderstand. Red curb is not a
place to put trash cans, you may employ it as a place to put trash cans but that
isn't why they're put there. On that basis in 3 months when we come back, if we
do, I would not be interested in putting red curb out for trash cans. I understand
your problem I've got a neighbor too, I have to push mine way down the middle
of the block because I don t know what time they get up but they beat me out
every day, and I get up at 5:45 a.m. I understand your plight but as far as
implementation of a red curb for that, you will have a tough sell.
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting City Traffic Commission —April 14,2010 Pg. 12
Chairman Beil — In the past we have had other requests somewhat similar, trying
to get room for trash cans or somebody's parking just so close; it's not a vision
zone issue at the end of the cul -de -sac and we've had other actions and I would
hate to set precedent that way too.
All in favor of continuing this for 3 months:
AYES: Unanimous
NOES: None
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5. Request for the closure of Kennymead St. at Santiago Canyon Road.
Peter Jacklin
Tom Davidson
Orange Park Association
Orange, CA 92869
The oral presentation is based on the written staff report, please refer to your copy.
Commissioner Lebeau — Pg. 2 of the staff report states that there were 5 opposed,
is the number really 7?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Yes, you are correct.
Vice Chairman Lall — With the potential of 148 signatures they were to have
gathered, it looks like there are 58 total returned, percentage wise that's about
40 %? Is there any other instance, for speed humps, where that would be
sufficient to move forward with a request?
Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — This case when it came to us we treated it
as a resident's request, but throughout our process we realized that this is a
safety issue and it does not fall into any of our standard categories. Even though
we issued the petition, after a couple of months of study and reviewing the field
information we realized it would be a good thing to have the petition circulated
so the neighbors could become aware of it, but it's not a requirement for this
project to be installed if it is recommended by the Traffic Commission and
approved by the City Council.
Vice Chairman Lall — So we really don't have a standard on what needs to be
returned. We put the petitions out to the proponent; the proponent gathers the
signatures, so basically two- thirds of the residents we don't know how they feel.
Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — That's correct. However, we notified all
the residents who were on the petition of today's meeting.
Vice Chairman Lall — Lack of accident history. It seems from the report there
was only one roll -over accident and it had nothing to do with the intersection
other than it happened near the intersection, am I correct?
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission - April 14, 2010' Pg. 14 1
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Yes. Also, we did not have a
documented accident history in 1999 either. But when we measured the sight
distance at the intersection (refer to aerial photo) based on where the STOP bar
was, there was not enough sight distance. The required sight distance for the
speed of the road, there was not enough sight distance to the east because you're
looking into the curve, but also looking to the west the road forms another curve
and there is a block wall that could not be moved, and a few other geographic
features that did not provide adequate sight distance. Mostly because of the
light traffic volume on the street that allowed us not to have a documented
accident history with regard to vehicles exiting Kennymead onto Santiago
Canyon Rd. and being hit by either eastbound or westbound vehicles.
Vice Chairman Lall — It seems it is a large area and there are a lot of old growth
trees and brush and a lot of horses and things of that nature. I have some
concerns as far as evacuating that area in the event of a fire. Has that been
studied thoroughly and is there any specific information on response times and
how this would delay any paramedics or emergency service response?
Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — In the process of the traffic study for the
subject issues we contacted both the Police and Fire Departments, they concur
there will be no delay in response, but the Fire Dept. has a representative here if
you'd like to hear from him directly.
Ed Engler, Deputy Fire Marshal — The Orange Fire Dept. has no reservations
about the full closure being the strictest of the choices. Our call load there is
minimal, you bring up a good point with trees in the area, they are large lots so
in a way that works to the benefit of the closure because there are fewer homes in
that section of the street, so call volume is not high. When we have a fire in that
area we will be bringing in units from various parts of the city, so only one unit
might come in from the end of the street. The usual choice is not to, because it is
fairly narrow, they like to have options and we like to bring in units from
different directions for water accessibility. The likelihood of a second unit
coming in through the cul -de -sac, or what would be a cul -de -sac, is virtually nil
it's going to be coming in from the other end of the street. The fact that we don't
have the numbers there I think the safety element of cars going in and out of
there in our view is that outweighs the few seconds it would take for us to go the
longer distance.
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission - April 14,2010 Pg. 15
Vice Chairman Lall — In the event of an evacuation because of a fire have you
studied how much longer it will take to evacuate the neighborhood and their
horses and livestock?
Ed Engler, Deputy Fire Marshal — We have not. In my opinion, especially if the
full closure involved the poles that are removable, or if you could walk animals
out and people could freely walk out if it's not a fully closed off cul -de -sac it
wouldn't change much of anything, except if you were trying to load horses into
trailers. We like to think, especially with our early warning system that we're
putting into place that we're not going to be evacuating people at the very last
second, that we're going to have plenty of time to get people out in a reasonable
amount of time where they can get their stuff in their car and drive out safely.
Vice Chairman Lall — I live in Mabury Ranch and I've been evacuated a couple of
times and you guys are ahead of the game and not behind the game, and I
commend you for that. I know there are only a few exits out of Mabury Ranch
and that's always created quite a traffic jam concern. I'd like to see bollards used
so that could be opened up. I know we have a bollard situation in Mabury that
doesn't seem to get opened up during an evacuation and that would concern me
that there has got to be somebody there responsible enough to open up that
street.
Ed Engler, Deputy Fire Marshal — You're right, the bollards would not be
something we would like to contend with in the event of a fire call where we
have the first arriving units getting there. It's quicker to drive around them, or to
push them over. In an evacuation scenario then we can unlock them, pull them
out of the way, and we could bring trailers in and out or use it as a secondary
exit so that's why that is a good choice while still accomplishing the idea of
closing it off.
Commissioner King — There was a fire that came across this ridge, there was no
development in here in 1965 -66, and a fire rolled all across those mountains and
come across here. I had a friend who lost everything he owned, and I believe his
house was right there.
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Ed Engler, Deputy Fire Marshal - Could very well be. I know the Paseo Grande
was the big one we talked about the most that came over the hill into the area
where Cannon used to dead end. The creek bed is somewhat of a wind tunnel
and that is a primary hazard we are concerned about. We're a little be away
from it here but when the wind is blowing and you have big trees nothing is far
away from it, it's always a concern, our hope is that if we something like that
even if it's on the other side of the 241 and we start evacuations, we're going to
be doing the reverse 911 thing an hour before the fire hits and volunteers with
trailers will be removing those bollards and using that as a secondary egress.
Even if it was fully closed we're comfortable with that.
Commissioner Dick - What is the intended methodology should we support staff
in their recommendation?
Chairman Beil - We want to get any questions for staff answered first and then
we want to hear public testimony. I went out and met with some of the
community leaders and some of the residents and stood there and watched and
we talked about what was going on. It was quite shocking to me that when there
was a group of people standing there looking at traffic of the number of cars that
came up Kennymead and went out the wrong side of the road, it was extremely
dangerous. These are not just people who are lost; these are people who live in
those communities that are doing it, that was quite shocking to me. Regarding
numbers, one thing that was stuck on me was the 24 -hour machine counts on
Kennymead between Wilderness and Santiago Canyon Rd. I was quite shocked
that northbound was 152, where do they go?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst - When you are counting a residential
street and in particular one that is undeveloped and narrow where there is no
curb, gutter or sidewalk and there isn't a striped centerline. Most people tend to
drive down the middle of the street so you have 2 hoses, 1 that goes all the way
across and 1 that goes half -way across. If a person is trying to avoid a parked
vehicle and they go across on the other side of the road they hit the wrong
counter. So you end up with a higher volume that you may expect. Although I
would say too that there are a number of people who come in, gardeners, pool
men, that kind of thing, I think some people may rent stable space, so you have
people from outside the area that are driving in to tend to their animals. Even
though there a few houses here the traffic volume is not unusually high. The
directional split is a little unusual though.
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Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — Even though we noticed the number is a
little exaggerated but since we were going to use a worst case scenario for the
impact of this closure on Meads Ave. we felt more confident to leave that
number which is a much higher number.
Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion.
Tom Davidson - In favor of closure. The area of Kennymead and Santiago
Canyon Rd. is one of, if not the most dangerous areas in the City. With the
proposed median project that is supposed to take place on Santiago Canyon Rd.
the intersection of Kennymead should not be overlooked. Safe passage in and
around OPA is our biggest concern, there is a high rate of accidents in that area,
we don t know if it's caused by Kennymead or not. We all know people are
driving at an incredibly high rate of speed. When we have accidents out there it
causes a number of problems, it causes electricity outages to residents, for some
up to 2 days. I think Kennymead needs to be looked as far as to what that be
causes so we met out there with Chairman Beil and it was rather interesting, it
was almost like a staged event to see people going out and make an illegal turn.
We saw one illegal left and one illegal right turn. Line of sight visibility from
that corner is extremely limited and we have talked with the residents and the
left -turn lane if we weren't going to be the smart thing in terms of going in a
westbound direction. With the neighbors who live there, especially the ones on
the southeast corner, they would be impacted by the closure. If they were in
agreement with that I think that would be the right thing to do and I appreciate
Chairman Lall's concern about the evacuation of the animals. Most of the time
when we have had to evacuate and we have had to do that as recent as 2 years
ago, the fire is coming this way and that is not the direction most people want
their animals out. We have a pretty good evacuation plan in place that we have
worked with the City on. We have worked with the County on large animal
evacuation and we feel for our Association we have done a pretty good job of
getting that on line and I don't think that would be a big concern for the
residents. It's a dangerous intersection. I don't know if any of you have made
the turn either way on that but during peak traffic periods it's scaly because
people are coming quickly and I'm sure even somebody who was attempting to
make a right turn especially in the morning noticing going eastbound you get the
sun coming at you and if you don't see somebody in that right turn lane you're
going to jerk your vehicle out of the way to go around them, well all of a sudden
if you do that and the car is there and they just slide across and then you have a
head -on accident and we know some of the results of that.
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ohn Cox - In favor of closure. Members of my family use Kennymead for
ingress, we generally make the left -turn into Kennymead on a daily basis but in
the interest of safety, and we are greatly impacted because we see the accidents
on a monthly basis out there and I'm very concerned that somebody is going to
make an illegal turn out of there. I see people driving out in that direction all the
time and I know they don't live down there, so they've got to be exiting. I would
just as soon give up my right to give up the Kennymead entrance and use Meads
instead.
Carolyn Aliotta - In favor of closure. My property wall on the north side backs
up to Santiago Canyon Rd. When we first moved in Santiago Canyon Rd. was a
2 -lane highway and now it's 4 lanes and speeds increase every year. About a
year after we moved in we heard a loud crash and my husband hopped the wall
over to Santiago Canyon Rd. at the scene of a solo motorcycle accident, he sat
with the motorcyclist until he died. Years later I sat with a college student that
was leaving Santiago College and his car had gone off the curve, hit the ditch
and flipped over and I sat with him until help got there. He was lucky, he lived.
Actually 3 people have died at this curve since I've lived here. I've spoken to the
City Council in the past citing several reasons they need to take a look at this
curve. The speeds are too high, there's no traffic enforcement after dark in our
area, there's no median to keep the car on the correct side of the road, and there's
no guard rail on the outside of the curve to prevent the cars from going into the
ditch or from taking out the electrical poles and us being without power. The
signage coming down the hill, there are a couple of side streets and the yellow
warning signs indicate a perpendicular street into a straight highway. That's not
correct signage for new people in the area who have never circumvented that
curve before, so it's misleading to new drivers and every semester there's new
students going to Santiago College, plus if the new houses go in at East Orange
that is going to increase our traffic too so the signage is important. We need to
make changes to that road because of the speeds, we need to close Kennymead,
the left -turn pocket is too short for the speeds, I've gone into that pocket and
there are people giving me hand gestures in my mirror because I'm slowing
down in order to enter the turn pocket. I've gone into Kennymead to get home
and I've lost time how many times I have turned right onto Kennymead and I'm
face to face with a truck that is trying to exit.
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Peter Iacklin - In favor of closure. The primary concern is safety I think anything
we can do to minimize distractions, minimize dangers if the right thing to do.
The closure may be a slight burden on some people on Meads Ave. and Randall
St. Some of the traffic I think will get diverted onto Amapola and Ridgeline as
well; I'm not certain all the traffic is going to go on Meads. I'm of the opinion
that no change is not an option, we need to make a change. Martin Calderwood
is going to come up in a few minutes to talk, he lives on the southeast corner and
he has some very unique requirements because of how his property is laid out.
I'd ask you to give some consideration to his requirements.
Laura Thomas - In favor of the closure. My house is located immediately to the
left of the photo as you go that way on Santiago Canyon Rd. My wall has been
hit 4 times. With Kennymead being an only entrance for access from Santiago
Canyon Rd. people ignore it. While out riding we have seen people exit and we
have called in to Orange PD to hopefully cite them or catch up to them because
that is a danger. We have not had accidents out there but as the road was
widened in 1997 -98 we have had a chronological record of at least 18 accidents
that have involved death, power outages, etc. at that curve location and
fortunately it has not been with anyone going out our trying to come in. Many of
the residents are very concerned about coming in to make that left -turn because
you have to slide over into the painted median coming around the curve in order
to get enough because the cars are right on your tail. Westbound drivers coming
around the curve at 5:00, when that hour occurs the sun is in your eyes and it's
very hard to see oncoming traffic so you can't tell how much is there or how
much space is in between. I have a 3 -horse gooseneck horse trailer, I would
never turn into that left -turn, I would always go down to the signal at Meads, it's
much safer. We're trying to define the community of Orange Park Acres so
aesthetics are an important thing and when I saw those bollards on what would
be a proposal for closing it fully that really isn't very aesthetic for the
community. We're working with staff regarding the median, we're trying not to
make it a concrete jungle out there, and so we're looking more for white vinyl
fencing that could be easily removed for emergency access. Concerning
evacuation, I have 3 horses and I won't be waiting to take them out. We actually
have 5 exits to get out, Amapola, Randall, Meads, Orange Park Blvd. north or
south, there are plenty of exits so there won't be a traffic jam.
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Martin Calderwood - Opposed to closure. I'm the one most directly affected by
the decision you are going to make this afternoon. We've lived here 14 years and
at this point I can't count 1 accident that was created by that intersection or by
motorists entering or exiting Kennymead. Each and every one of these accidents
everybody has been talking about up here has been on the external curve going
northwesterly on Santiago Canyon Rd. 90% of that is on the outside curve.
There are many people here telling you that is an accident waiting to happen,
this intersection is dangerous but it was corrected about 5 years by the City
Traffic Engineer. We took out the potential for anyone exiting Kennymead onto
Santiago Canyon Rd. and attempting a right turn. The island that was put in
may have been designed wrong, because when we stood out there and we
looked at it we came up with some ideas on how to correct the way it appears
when you drive down there. Currently the "DO NOT ENTER" signs are sitting at
about 12 ft. in the sky, when you drive up to that you can't see them. Also, when
you get to the end of Kennymead there is nothing that dictates where the center
of the road is, so it looks like a deflection to tell you to go off to the left and just
exit and make a run for it. The people that don't make a run for it on the left go
to the right between my brick wall and the power pole off a curve 12 inches high
into the traffic coming eastbound on Santiago Canyon Rd. Just throwing up a
couple of sticks isn't going to stop it, I can see this coming from a long ways
away. They're still going to use the exit plan around my power pole; they will
just find a way. Here's the problem, from out of the blue you said there was 148
people that you sent the petition out, 45 people sent them back in. I don't know
how many houses are in that little area including the street they live on, but I can
tell you all the way to the golf course I don't think there are 148 homes in my
area. I don't know how far those petitions went out but strictly there are only 25-
40 houses that use that entrance in and out. I don't know how wide of a
notification this was or who you addressed. The traffic is light on that street, and
most of the people that live on the street use the right -turn when they're coming
home. The issue with the westbound traffic coming down around and trying to
come into Kennymead I agree, that's a danger zone, you are a sitting duck in that
turn lane; but that turn lane has nothing to do with all of the accidents that have
occurred on that curve. Don't combine these two problems, these are two
separate issues. The accidents are neglect, those accidents have been stacking up
20 years, now you come along and you want to say my street is the cause of some
of those streets and you want to close it. But the problem comes down to you
guys just want to slap something across there, I currently have a motor home and
a 65 ft. trailer, for m to get that down that street if you close means I have to back
down the street about 300 vards before I make the turn into my driveway. If I
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can't turn it around on my property, because once I get it I have to back it other
way. The same problem happens for the Fire Dept., he even admitted the street
was narrow, if you block it off you can't turn around. The new CR &R trucks are
12 ft. longer than the trucks used by Waste Management, Inc., they can't turn
around so you have a trash truck backing up 300 yards down my street because
you want to slap that in now. You know how they do it now, they do a 3 -point
turn, they go in to the curve when you have the entrance, and they back all the
way in to my driveway and spin a full U on the end of the street. I asked Amir
when we were out there, if you are going to close the street are you going to
make it a cul -de -sac? Are you going to make it so I can turn around at the end of
my street? Literally right now that street is 30 ft. wide, any car that runs down to
the end, where is it going to go? What are you expecting them to do at the end of
the street, sit there? There is no place legally for them to turn around that is safe,
that means they are going to be driving off the curb, driving on people's lawns,
they don't care. But I don't see the city addressing the problem of the cul -de -sac;
I see them addressing the problem of trying shut off an exit that can be easily
corrected with $1,000. We talked about this 3 months ago, but nobody has done
anything about it, those signs are still way up in the sky. Your fix is to close the
street and call it done, but it's not fair, because there are other people on that
street too that have long trailers that have to make turn around, the guy across
the street from me they're going to be using his turn around driveway as the new
cul -de -sac. It's just not fair to some of the neighbors. Right now the way I have
it counted out there have been 20 major accidents, there have been 5 fatalities but
the carnage on that street has nothing to do with this exit and if you're expecting
it to go away it's not because not 1 accident has been addressed to this
intersection. Just go in and drop the signs, paint a centerline and curve the
entrance, cut out the stupid entrance coming westbound and leave the right turn
lane coming in to Kennymead. That cures my problem, it cures the trash trucks,
it cures the Fire Dept. and I see no issue with that, it's the easiest way to solve
this problem without closing the entire street.
Adrienne Randolph - Opposed to street closure. just about a month ago one of
your department came and put the rubber hose across the street and I went out
to find out why, and furthermore I never received a notice or petition to sign, I
would have said no to closing Kennymead.
Chairman Beil - You did receive notification on this meeting tonight?
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Adrienne Randolph - Yes, last Friday at 4:30 p.m. in the mail and I called the
office immediately because I wanted to say that my feeling were hurt that I was
sure that you gentlemen had already decided in favor of the closure of it. It's not
rocket science here, all the traffic issues in the City. This gentlemen awarded the
old geezer 40 ft. of red curb on my street so now everyone parks on my side of
the street in front of my mailbox, so now my mailman who has the most
dangerous job in the world because they tell me they cannot back up in their
jeep, he will not put mail in my monument box if there are cars blocking so I
don't get mail every day. I wanted red curb just 3 ft. at the base of my mailbox.
Chairman Beil - Can you address the issue at hand?
Adrienne Randolph - Sure. I'm never going to get past the dangerous speeding
down Meads going north towards the traffic signal where everybody is going
and all of this is because it's a 50 MPH speed limit from the college to the
intersection of Cannon St. and Santiago Canyon Rd. It should not be high; it
needs to be less sine everybody is already doing 60-65 MPH. Rarely do I go to
the grocery store at 5 pm and I wouldn't even consider turning left onto
Kennymead because that is asking for death because they are speeding and want
to rear -end you. I'm grateful for having a traffic light at Meads to turn there, and
given the accidents that have occurred. If you haven't done so already please
consider putting a barricade made of krypton around the SCE power pole at the
curve. Every 6 -8 months when the drunk drivers going west on the road I end
up without power for 2 days. Where are you going to put the barricade? I know
you're going to put the median in the middle for planting, are you putting it
opposite the entrance to Kennymead?
Ron Williamson - In favor of street closure, there is a lot of speeding on the
street, it's a long straight street going up to the ridge and people speed. I come
home every night and turn left onto Kennymead and it's really usually not a
problem, I'm used to it so I can get into that left -turn lane but not only local
residents but strangers to that neighborhood will come out that street and they
will be waiting should they turn or not turn and it's only when that confusion
happens when you're turning left and someone is trying to get out and that
causes a lot of problems for us and we think that it would be in the best interest
of our neighborhood if that confusion were gone and street were closed. We
believe it would stop the speeding from going up and down Kennymead and be
a lot safer place.
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Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for
further discussion and deliberation.
Chairman Beil —I wanted to get some additional comments from Sgt. Adams
regarding enforcement activities. When I was out there it was amazing to me to
see those vehicles coming north on Kennymead and going to the left side and
then going out onto the main thoroughfare, I feel there is some confusion on the
signing coming up to the end of that street. It is very confusing, as heard in some
of the testimony when people are making a left coming westbound and turning
left onto Kennymead there is a very high propensity for a vehicle to be sitting
right there to illegally exit onto Santiago Canyon Rd. When I was out there with
the residents I asked what about the enforcement? I told them that when I was
coming out here I saw some traffic officers up towards the cemetery on the other
side of the curve. The comments I received at that time was that most of the
traffic officers for them to be able to sit and properly laser speed and to sit in a
safe spot they don't want to be anywhere close to that area around Kennymead.
So I'd like to capture your thoughts if you have any experience of the traffic
enforcement right around that Kennymead intersection.
Sgt. Dan Adams, OPD Traffic Bureau — I know that we have written some
citations for illegal turns there, however, as I'm sure everyone in the room
knows, we try to focus as much as we can on speeding of the westbound
vehicles, that's where most of major injury or fatality accidents have occurred so
you will see the officers closer to the cemetery or more toward the bottom of the
hill. When this first came about months ago we sent people out specifically to
check the illegal turns at Kennymead, however the primary concern at that time
was trash trucks exiting illegally and UPS trucks. At that time we didn't see any
of those vehicles exiting illegally, obviously that's not to say it doesn't happen,
because it does happen. But as far as directed enforcement toward turning
violations in or out of Kennymead we really haven t done too much. As most of
the residents know we are out there on Santiago Canyon Rd. almost every day
but mostly focusing on speed.
Chairman Beil — I'd also like to mention Martin Calderwood, he mentioned how
right at the end of the street toward Santiago Canyon Rd. If you're coming up
Kennymead it's on the right side and it's sort of right in the middle of Mr.
Calderwood's driveway and you can see looking there that the people who get
confused and they know they don't want to go out the wrong way on the wrong
side of the street, they are diving over the little island area right off the curve
there rather than dive around. I just wanted to point that out because some of
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting City Traffic Commission - April 14,2010 Pg. 24
the options laid out in closing off the street using bollards I feel that we are going
to have to do something over in that area to restrict that movement of people
driving off the curb there.
Commissioner Dick —If we should close this what type of closure will be
employed?
Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — The next step after approval from the City
Traffic Commission would be to go to the City Council and obtain their
approval. We have an existing project, Santiago Canyon Rd. Safety
Improvements which is going to be including most of the concerns one of the
speaker had. As far as shielding the power poles, putting in the raised medians,
those will all be part of this project. The closure by itself is going to be part of the
project, but to what extent of the project I'm not sure of at this time. The project
funding is not that much. Somehow we are going to close it either with bollards
or white fence. We are going to communicate with our City officials, my boss
and also communicate with the residents to see what would be the best way to
approach it. If we cannot do it in a way that is aesthetically desirable then there
might be some other steps that need to be taken later on.
Chairman Beil — My assumption of what is being considered tonight is the
closure of Kennymead, not the specific design details and aesthetic issues, those
will be developed as part any project and goes to Council for approval and
approval to advertise ultimately. I feel we can made recommendations if we see
specific issues regarding traffic and /or safety for staff to consider when taking
that design forward.
Commissioner Dick — If we're going to leave the road there I would like to see it
done in such a way that in the case of a truly catastrophic scenario whether it's
an earthquake or tsunami or whatever that it could be pressed into service once
again. I would also request should we make that move that we bear in mind the
fact that was pointed out that once we get to the end of the road what are you
going to do? Certainly we need to put a "NOT A THROUGH STREET" sign at the
appropriate spot before you turn off onto Wilderness.
Chairman Beil — Which I think is there now.
Commissioner Dick — I was just there and I missed it.
Chairman Beil — Mr. Calderwood brought up a really big issue that I could see
that wile you are out there and looking at that road and it's the issue particularly
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of the trash trucks and if you have delivery trucks going down there, there is just
no option. How do they turn around? If you heard the testimony they do 3-
point turns backing on people's grass because there is no curb and gutter right
there. That is an issue that I know you're concerned that the American Recovery
and Reinvestment Act funded project the President got us is fairly tight on
money. But you should also consider any improvements on turning width or
turn- around area at the end of that street that could be implemented. The
existing island is really oddly shaped, even if some of that island area could be
removed so there is more room at the end of the street to jockey around and do
whatever they have to do to head back in the other direction. I do see that as a
real issue for all the residents out there, particularly Mr. Calderwood, whose
driveway is right there and of course if you look at his lot lay -out in the picture
essentially his driveway comes out on to the street, right on Kennymead right at
the end there next to that island and people look at that as a road to go up and
they end up in front of his house. It is a very strange situation, I tried to dig up a
little of the history when I met with the some of the residents and the community
people out there about how did we get there. The staff report shed some light on
that for me. Back in 1999 when there was some initial widening that went
through, modifications were made and actually Mr. Calderwood's driveway
used to go out onto Santiago Canyon Rd. and as part of all that widening there
were agreements that his access would come out on Kennymead. It is a much
safer access for him, I would have to have to pull into a driveway on Santiago
Canyon Rd. right there particularly after previous widening. I would ask staff to
try to come up with any options to improve the situation for vehicle turn
movements at the end of that street to turn around.
Commissioner King - The gentleman in the back brought up the removal of
signs. What signs are you referring to? Who agreed to their removal?
Chairman Beil - Nobody agreed to take them out. It's the "WRONG WAY DO NOT
ENTER" signs that are shown in your staff report. Those should be lowered.
Commissioner King — Those are supposed to come out?
Commissioner Dick — No, lowered. He thought it would be better if it was in a
closer line of sight versus the height they are. They are at their current height so
you can see them from a further distance away.
Commissioner King — Okay. So what's going to be done with the signs, I still
don't get it.
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Chairman Beil - Depending on the action. Amir, you might want to explain.
Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer - We have been waiting for this meeting
and get some direction and recommendation before we do that. The signs can be
lowered anytime. We will issue a work order in the next week or so to lower the
signs at least for the time being until the more permanent solution is determined.
Commissioner King - I'd like to make a motion to carry this over to next month.
I would like to go out and see the area; I haven't been in the area since 1966 so I'd
like to see what it looks like.
Chairman Beil - We have a motion to continue the item, is there a second?
(pause) The motion was not seconded, so the motion fails. I can explain the
signs, I believe it was based on a discussion we had when we were out in the
field looking at the situation. I looked at the signs in their current lay out and my
feeling was, you know me, I am used to how freeway ramps are signed with
"WRONG WAY DO NOT ENTER" fairly large. Our signs are mounted lower; these
are mounted on top of about an 8 ft. steel pole.
Vice Chairman Lall - Looking at the sight sketch, it doesn't have any identifiers
on it. It almost looks to me as if you are heading north on Kennymead that there
would be enough room for a speed -up lane.
Chairman Beil - That's a private driveway.
Vice Chairman Lall - That's what I wanted to clarify if that was Mr.
Calderwood's driveway or not. Is there any other way to get a speed up ramp in
that area? Or an acceleration lane I mean?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst - No, there isn't.
Vice Chairman Lall - It seems to me the right turn is a big problem. It's not
allowed but people are still doing it. It hasn't caused any accidents that have
been identified as the cause of the accident but if that's the concern if we had an
acceleration lane to merge into the number 1 lane on Santiago Canyon Rd.
eastbound that could take away most of the problem.
Chairman Beil - It would take an awful lot of expensive right -of -way.
Vice Chairman Lall - It's not already owned by the City or the County?
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting' - City Traffic Commission - April 14,2010 Pg. 27
Chairman Beil - No it's Mr. Calderwood's driveway. It's his only access to his
lot.
Vice Chairman Lall - Don't want to do that.
Commissioner Lebeau - I share your concerns about the turning radius at the
end of Kennymead St., closing that in any way is going to impact the ability to
make a turn around there. In looking at the staff's site sketch from the 1999
Traffic Commission meeting and it shows that at one point someone
contemplated building an actual cul -de -sac there.
Chairman Beil - I was doodling around all different things that I thought would
work and ultimately they didn't because it would create confusion and conflict.
If you overlay what's in that 1999 report as far as the cul -de -sac on there and you
will see that it overlays where that existing island is so that's what I'm thinking,
if we can get some of that existing island removed, if we decide to close this off, it
will expand that area for vehicles to be able to turn around. There are utilities,
valve boxes and things all around the site so it's not an easy matter to just go in
and throw down asphalt.
Commissioner Lebeau - I agree it seems like a rash decision to close it without
creating an opportunity for vehicles to turn around, and I can see Mr.
Calderwood's concerns about it not being clear what you can and cant do at that
intersection.
Chairman Beil - This is the raised median and most people come up the wrong
way and go this way, but you can see a lot of people once they start pulling into
Mr. Calderwood's driveway they don't want to back up, they just decide to drive
over the gravel and dirt and over the curb.
Commissioner King - If this were to pass what's the timeline of doing anything?
Chairman Beil - Your proposed project schedule?
Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer - If it is approved by the City Council we
have been waiting for the safety project itself that this might potentially become a
part of that project we have been awarded for the funding authority.
Chairman Beil - You're waiting for Caltrans approval.
Commissioner King - So its months away, if it were to pass?
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Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer - Not that far, we have been waiting for
that authorization and if we get their authorization and we have approval from
the City Council within a month or so it will go out for bid.
Commissioner King - If it passes the Commission it goes to the Council next
month? Is that how it goes?
Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer - Yes.
Commissioner King - So a couple of months after that we would see
construction?
Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer - Within 3-4 months.
Chairman Beil - I will tell you on the money issues that what we are
experiencing right now make sure you are adjusting your Engineer's Estimates
down and you'll have some extra money. There's 30 -40 % bid savings right now
in the current market.
ACTION: Approve closure of Kennymead St. at Santiago Canyon Rd. and
forward to the City Council.
MOTION:
J. Beil
SECOND:
L. Dick
AYES:
Beil, Dick, Lall, Lebeau
NOES:
King
End of Consideration Items
V. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS
None this month.
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VI. ADJOURNMENT
After discussion of today's Agenda the City Traffic Commission meeting was
concluded, and as there were no further requests for action under Oral
Presentations, the Chairman adjourned this session of the City Traffic
Commission.
The next meeting of the City Traffic Commission is scheduled:
5:30 P.M.
Wednesday - June 9, 2010
Respectfully submitted,
CITY OF ORANGE
Phyllis Then, Recording Secretary
Traffic Engineering Division
pthen @cityoforange.org
CITY OF ORANGE
PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT
300 E. CHAPMAN AvENUE
ORANGE CA 92866
PH: (714) 7445536
FAX: (714) 7445573
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