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04-13-2011 - Minutes TCCITY OF ORANGE 0 CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION Minutes of a Regular Meeting: ARri113, 2011 I. OPENING A. Flag Pledge B. Roll Call Present - Commissioners: J. Beil, N. Lall, M. Lebeau Absent - Commissioners: W. King Present - Staff: A. Farahani, W. Winthers, D. Allenbach, Sgt. J. Bird, C. Perez C. Approval of Minutes • February 9, 2011 ACTION: Approved as published. MOTION: M. Lebeau SECOND: J. Beil AYES: J. Beil, M. Lebeau ABSTAIN: N. Lall NOES: None • March 9, 2011 - No meeting this month due to lack of agenda items. II. ORAL PRESENTATIONS None this month. III. CONSENT CALENDAR None this month. City of rang Public Works Department Tape #CfC -31.03 of this City Traffic Co meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. B April 13 [N:/lYaffic /CrC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 PQ. 2 IV. CONSIDERATION ITEMS 1. Request for the installation of a handicapped parking space on the east side of Elm St. in front of the baseball field at 323 N. Elm St. Victoria Ojeda Orange Little League Safety Officer 2033 W. Beverly Dr. Orange, CA 92868 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. On conclusion of the staff report Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion. Chairman Beil — I spent 9 years trying to get that parking spot when I was coaching and managing. I am curious on the new guidelines for approving handicap spaces, but we have had issues in the past of having to revisit them. Can you review the guidelines for making decisions in implementing these? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — These are in -house guidelines and are mostly for the residents who don't have a parking space or garage. • Live in an area where parking is too far away from their residence • Have difficulties getting to the site • Don t have the access or other means of transportation that comes to the driveway to pick them up, they have to pick up the disabled persons curbside. Those are the some of the guidelines we normally go with, this time it is a little different, we looked at it extensively and we talked to the applicant and it seems the person who is in need this space is going to be using it for at least several years, and after looking at the site we felt we should make our recommendation to you. Chairman Beil —I think this has been discussed previously, when there have been issues about handicap parking in front of residences, they should be approved conditionally and be revisited every so often. Is this going to open the door where every single sports organization using Orange Unified School District property is going to be coming in and asking for these handicap spaces all around the City, and along with that, what obligation does the School District have in providing access, not just for Orange Little League, but for other locations around the City in regards to soccer fields for whoever is using those fields on weekends or after hours? City of Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department April 13 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 Pg. 3 Wayne Winthers, Sr. Asst. City Attorney — As you know and as we've said before once that is approved that spot is open for anybody with a handicap placard, it's not reserved just for this one individual, so anybody with a temporary placard can use that spot that is always a danger. To address your other questions, I don't know if it's a legal precedent but perhaps it is a Commission precedent if perhaps you were to approve this you could open the door for others to come in with this type of request. I don't believe the City has any obligation or any requirement for approval of this type of request as far an ADA requirement. From that aspect I don't think there is any legal requirement for the City. I'm not personally aware of the physical set -up as far as the parking for the school itself, and what handicap parking availability may be in the school parking lot, and then accessing the field from there. I'm not aware of the physical layout and whether that is a viable option or not. Chairman Beil — You can probably see it better in the aerial photograph. I wasn't able to make it by the spot, I very familiar with it though, when I left Little League, the parking in front of Portola by the AA field was still there. When they were re -doing the school they had taken all that parking away and it really impacted things and the only handicap parking in the actual lot on the school is closer to the office area, away from the fields. They do have petty ample handicap parking over there, and a lot of Little League people park over there, but it is a trek to the fields from there. Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — I would like to add that part of your question was if there was a period time for a review of these requests, yes, it is part of the guidelines for every 5 years; and the proponent has to notify us if there is no longer a need for that handicap space. Chairman Beil — I know a lot of people from the Little League get to the fields very early, and if they have a placard they will keep that parking space available for someone who needs it. Wayne Winthers, Sr. Asst. City Attorney — One other issue just so you're aware and I just confirmed this with Sgt. Bird, but it is my understanding that if you have a handicap placard you can park in on the other side of the street (in the permit area) without being cited. As long as the placard or license plate denoting the handicap status is properly displayed they would not be cited, and that area would be accessible to them. C o Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department B April 13 [N:/rraffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 Pg. 4 Chairman Beil - That is information I was unaware of. That was always a big issue for people coming to a game that would park there on Elm St., they would get ticketed quite often because the residents call real quick, that's why there are no cars on the west side of the street in those pictures, it's all permit parking. Victor Ojeda, League Safety Officer of Orange Little League - I spoke to several parking control officers and I called the City, and I was told the only place the person with a handicap placard could not park was in permit parking areas. Sgt. Jeff Bird, OPD Traffic Bureau - The only thing I'm aware of where we will cite those with a handicap placard is on street sweeping day, they don't have the right to block the street sweeper. If there was a proper handicap placard properly displayed inside a vehicle parked in a permit parking zone we would not cite it. Chairman Beil - Would you withdraw this request if it were confirmed that this was the case? Tulie Ducheny, 975 N. Cleveland St. - There are two issues. (1) We were trying to provide some parking option for the folks that need handicap parking on that street. (2) People often impede the access point, so it makes it very difficult. We have one particular family in mind where the father of the player is in a wheelchair and needs the ramp. So when folks park too far in to this area it makes it almost impossible for him to be able to maneuver that. Would red curb work in place of the handicap blue curb? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst - Nobody could then use the space at all if we put in red curb. As you are aware when practice or when games are going on there is a high demand for parking on the east side of the street. We also have softball fields in the park and you probably have games occurring concurrently on both sides of Sycamore, and so you've got demand that goes all the way around both ends of the park's parking lot, and both sides of Sycamore Ave. To provide a more convenient access for someone who is disabled would certainly be a good thing, however, it is only one spot, and if you have more than one vehicle that has need for that spot once it's occupied, it's occupied. If you painted it red you can use it strictly for loading and unloading, and the person could slide out and get in their wheelchair and go up the access ramp, then the person driving could go out and look for parking elsewhere. ` city of Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 7445536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department B April 13 [N:/rraffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] 1 0 Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 Pg. 5 Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer - Maybe the question should be if we could paint the curb red about 5 ft. or 10 ft. on the north side, and 5 ft. on the south side, so we can keep the access clear. Chairman Beil - It's not a vehicular access like a regular driveway, it's merely a ramp that's on a straight tangent section of curb. Vice Chairman Lall - What are the regulations regarding an access ramp like that, isn't it already unlawful to block that? Not necessarily the need for red curbs but for the enforcement of that if there is an ordinance to keep people from blocking those? Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer - I believe it's illegal to block an access ramp it's the same as any other intersection. Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for final discussion and a motion. Chairman Beil - I really wanted to vet through this because there are a lot of issues orbiting around it, I've heard enough and I'm ready to make a motion to approve staff recommendation to approve the request. ACTION: Approved MOTION: J. Beil SECOND: M. Lebeau AYES: Unanimous City of Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department April 13 [N:frraffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 Pg. 6 2. Request for the installation of red curb markings on both sides of the driveway serving 1170 N. Main St. Will Farias Sunbelt Rentals 1170 N. Main St. Orange, CA 92867 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. On conclusion of the staff report Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion. Chairman Beil - The real issue they are concerned about is their ability to make left -turns into the driveway, it's not an egress from the driveway and a safety sight distance. Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Yes, as you can see from the photograph making a right turn onto Main St. from here for a large truck is going to be impossible and then make a turn and then get into their equipment yard. We understand the need to make the left turn in if they are coming in from Main St. and apparently they're using this as a one -way in so they ingress into here and then egress out onto Katella Ave. Mark White, 1170 N. Main St . — It's basically a safety issue for us and 95% of the time it's not an issue, it's only when there is an event at The Pond, and that street gets pretty jammed up and they encroach on that driveway and we use that as our entrance. These guys come in at this point, and load up in the yard, then they back -up and then they leave. It gets a little unnerving for those guys to try to shoot that gap when cars have narrowed it. The last time we were there a woman parked out into the opening and we had one of the city officers come by and she wasn't far out enough to be cited, but it was just far enough that it gave us a good example, and that's when we started discussion with the officer about pursuing red curb to give us more room to work with. Chairman Beil — Have you ever talked to the owner about installation of a commercial driveway width at that location to enhance its value? Mark White, 1170 N. Main St . — No but it seems like a good idea. ` Cit y of Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department B April 13 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 Pg. 7 Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for final discussion and a motion. Commissioner Lebeau — Your map shows red curb further north of this driveway, is that for the sign or is there a fire hydrant there? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — We show the existing red curb but it is very badly faded, but it is adjacent to an existing fire hydrant. Commissioner Lebeau — The proposal on this map is that 20 feet? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Main St. is 40 ft. so if we were going to install red curb we would probably want to install 40 -45 ft. on each side of the driveway. The driveway is not designated as strictly ingress or an egress, so people can enter or leave from this driveway. If red curb goes in it should go in on both sides, however, as the proponent has stated during the day and throughout most of the business day the demand for on -street parking is almost non - existent on this segment of Main St. Commissioner Lebeau — What is the rationale for 40 feet? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — We base that on our intersection sight distance ordinance. You have a minimum of 30 ft. for every street that is posted at 25 MPH and then you add a foot for every mile an hour the street is posted over 25 MPH. By my calculations that gives us about 40 -45 ft. here on Main St. Chairman Beil — That's one of the interesting points about this is that it's not a sight distance safety issue; normally all of our red curbs are sight distance issues. Commissioner Lebeau — I'm concerned with staff's suggestion about relocating a driveway. You're demolishing sidewalk and several thousand dollars of concrete forms, and pouring to solve what a couple hundred dollars of paint would fix. Given the fact that this isn't for sight distance purposes I think the 40 ft. would be a bit much. I drive by this site frequently and I can see the point especially with the potential of increasing intensity of use at The Pond, if the proposed move goes through it could double the amount of events that are occurring there. Chairman Beil — We may need the sight distance as parking spaces. ` City of Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department April 13 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 Pg. 8 Commissioner Lebeau — I'm inclined to approve a more limited scope of the request. Chairman Beil — What would be some options if it's not designated as a sight distance issue, if we wanted to go with a shorter red curb just to try to make it a safe ingress for larger trucks? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — You can elect to put in any amount of red curb you see fit. Keep in mind the intersection sight distance ordinance is actually for intersections that we use as a rule of thumb to determine an appropriate amount of red curb to be put in at a commercial driveway. It can be shorter and as you pointed out it's not so much a sight distance issue as it's more of a turning radius issue, then if you feel the need to put red curb in you certainly could put in a shorter amount. Relocating the driveway would be something that the property owner bears the cost of, this is not something that the city or the taxpayer's would have to pay for. Secondly moving the driveway further north at least on the north side would probably tie in with the existing red curb that is associated with the fire hydrant, and because this is a commercial area there is no sidewalk in front of the property so no sidewalk would be demolished at this site. Chairman Beil — Since this is not a sight distance issue having red curb on one side of the driveway, would that be an issue? Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — The width of the driveway is 20 ft. and the commercial driveway minimum should be 30 -35 ft. for that turn radius. It looks as if the issue is on the south side when trucks try to turn, so 15 ft. of red curb on the south side probably would minimize the issue they have with a parked car. Vice Chairman Lall — The distance between the two driveways on the south side where the proposed red curb would be, what is that distance? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — The distance between the south side of the subject driveway and the north side of the middle driveway is about 40 ft. ` City of Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department April 13 [N:/Traffic/CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 Pg. 9 Vice Chairman Lall - It seems to me that in today's economy we need to support our business community as much as possible and to ask a property owner with all the depressed prices and vacancies, I think it's unreasonable to ask them to spend that type of money to move a driveway. Adding a little bit of red curb to the south side of that driveway would accommodate the needs of this business at a minimal expense to the taxpayer, and support the interest of businesses in Orange versus other cities, and I would support red curb on the south side. ACTION: Fill the gap between the two driveways with red curb on the south side. MOTION: N. Lall SECOND: M. Lebeau AYES: Vice Chairman Lall - Could I ask the applicant a question? If we go ahead and install red curb at that location just on the south side, will that make it feasible for your drivers to get in there safely? Mark White - It certainly helps. On certain nights it's very narrow it could be from one side, it could be from both sides, it could be from neither side, it's hit or miss. Chairman Beil - How long are the trailers? Mark White - 53 ft. Chairman Beil - So they're probably dragging those over the curb anyhow. Mark White - They do. When it's empty they don't have to worry about it all that much but when the cars are there they have to time the traffic, they have to turn their turn and then adding the narrowness of gap it just makes it a little tougher for them. Chairman Beil - The big difficulty is turning from which direction? Coming north on Main St.? Mark White - Yes, you really can't come south on Main St. it would be too tight of a turn. City of Tape ACTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department B April 13 [N:/Praffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 Pg. 10 Vice Chairman Lall - Is any red curb north of that driveway required? Mark White - It would be nice to have 5 ft. or so on the north just to keep cars away from both sides of that driveway. Vice Chairman Lall - I'd like to amend my motion to add 5 ft. of red curb on the north side. Chairman Beil - Does that leave enough room for a parking space or two between the short piece of red on the north side and the existing red by the fire hydrant? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst - Yes that will leave at least one space. ACTION: Amended motion to fill the gap between the two driveways with red curb on the south side, and include 5 ft. of red curb on the north side of the driveway. Chairman Beil - Are you okay with 5 ft? Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer - Any amount we could go, 10 ft. probably would probably make sense. Commissioner Lebeau - I appreciate staff's desire to keep it at round numbers I want to make sure that we maintain at least one parking spot between the fire hydrant and the driveway. 5 ft. seems like it would be enough especially with 40 ft. of red curb on the south side it's just enough to give it a safety cushion. MOTION: N. Lall SECOND: M. Lebeau AYES: Unanimous ` City of Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department April 13 [N:/rraffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission – April 13, 2011 — Pg. 11 3. Request to adopt new speed zone boundaries and speed limits on Cannon St. between Creekside Ave. and Santiago Canyon Rd. Traffic Engineering Division CITY OF ORANGE Oral presentation is based on the written staff report, please refer to your copy. On conclusion of the staff report Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion. Vice Chairman Lall — The findings and conclusions on pg. 3 state that the speed limit should be set to the nearest 5 mph increment to the 85th Percentile. Is it should or must? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — It's our understanding that it is a must and if we're going to get any enforcement we have to have the speed zones set properly. Vice Chairman Lall — So our hands are tied we don't have an option in this per se. Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst —That's correct. The only exception is if there is any engineering reason to justify a lower speed limit, which we don't have here. Vice Chairman Lall — The steep grade wouldn't qualify for that? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — No, there is adequate sight distance along the road and where we need to provide control such as at Cliffway Dr. for example, or at Creekside, we have All -Way STOP'S there. Vice Chairman Lall — Are there any exceptions for heavy weight vehicles, gravel haulers, cement trucks, things of that nature? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — There are, but this section of Cannon St. is not part of our city truck route so unless there is a specific construction project or special move we don't anticipate too many of these vehicles and during the course of our study we did not see any large vehicles on this street. City .f Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department April 13 [N:frraffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission – April 13, 2011 — Pg. 12 Chairman Beil — Do you have any comments in regard to pedestrian and bicycle utilization along this stretch of road? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — We do have some bicycle and pedestrian usage. On the west side of the street is a bike lane separated from traffic, we have sidewalks on both sides of the street, then on the northerly part near Patria Court there is a signalized horse crossing. The west side is generally open space, I think it has become a part of the Santiago Oaks Regional Park, there are some hiking trails in the area but are generally accessed by people who live in the area. Commissioner Lebeau — Are there any exceptions for areas that have increased numbers of traffic collisions? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — If these were speed related collisions possibly, but we evaluated the accident history for the past 3 years and we are finding absolutely no accident related to speed. Commissioner Lebeau — You indicated one collision at Cannon St. and San Juan Dr., I'm looking at the Traffic Collision Traffic Accidents 2010 document and it shows two additional collisions at the intersection of Santiago and Cannon that weren't reported here. One on 1-4-10 and 12 -18 -10 both of them were reported as being "broad - side'. Is there a reason those weren't listed in the report? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Those accidents occurred at the intersection I believe they were vehicles that were travelling on Santiago Canyon Rd., broad -side because we had one that probably turned left in front of an oncoming vehicle. They were not related to what was happening on Cannon St. Michael Merino, 5830 E. Indigo Ct . — I am here as the Chairman of the Architectural Review Committee of the Crawford Hills HOA, representing the Board. The Crawford Hills community borders on the east side of Cannon St. pretty much one -half mile south and north of the crest at Cannon St. We have hundreds of homeowners there and thousands of residents. I am here to express our concern and as it stands our opposition to the increase on a general basis for the following reasons. We are concerned about the many pedestrians that are walking from our community along both sides, despite what staff says, while there haven't been any accidents to date we're concerned we're now raising to an excessive speeding area at least to those who live there, from 35 to 40 mph. That C'ry °f Tape #CPC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 7445536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department B April 13 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed on Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meetine - City Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 Pg. 13 means people will be pushing 40 -45 mph now and while there haven't been any accidents to date by continually raising the speed limit based on the fact that there haven't been any accidents you just keep pushing the envelope to a high speed and eventually the accidents you are basing your decisions on will occur and then we will be going back in the other direction. One of the reasons the traffic and speed issues occur on this road is that many people use this as a by- pass between the SR -91 to either the SR -57 or down to the I -5. We see that if you raise the speed limit it will only encourage that to take place and you will see more traffic that will impact our HOA and the residents of the community. One of the specific concerns for consideration by the Traffic Commission is that there are several entrances into the community that are not controlled at this point, they have no STOP signs and they have no signalization, therefore someone making a left -turn onto Cannon St. from those uncontrolled driveways are at a greater risk when the speed is increased. That can be mitigated by adding a 3- Way STOP depending on the particular situation, but then again that's probably going to end up reducing the speed for those individuals that are going to have to slow down between the STOP signs anyway. We just feel that it's not conducive to our community to raise the speed limit, and while I understand staff feels they don't have a choice, you do have one choice here, you can choose not to raise it. Should you choose to raise it yes you have to raise it 5 mph speed limit per staff's input but you don't have to raise it at all. Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for final discussion and a motion. Vice Chairman Lall — Looking at the method of sampling the speed it seems to me 100 vehicles is a rather small sampling for a Secondary arterial roadway, and in the past I know we've used the rubber tubes. Is there a reason we didn't use more extensive sampling? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — The 100 vehicle threshold or sample size actually was established by the ITE, they've been using this for years. What they found is once you get over 100 vehicles you really don't have any appreciable changes in vehicle speed that are observed. The reason we used a radar gun, in this particular instance, is because we can actually get the cars and the speed for each car. When we use the counter hoses that data is lumped into 5 mph speed bins and I may have 20 cars that are recorded between 30 -35 mph, but I will not be able to tell you how many cars are going 31 mph, or how many cars are going 33 mph, they are just lumped into a 5 mph bin. With a radar gun I know exactly how many cars are going at each speed that I record. ' City ofp Tape ACTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. V rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department April 13 [N:/1'raffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission – April 13, 2011 — Pg. 14 Chairman Beil — I've had some experience with the somewhat recent law change regarding the 85th Percentile and the issues of enforcement that agencies are going through. The Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices and the national standards that set these are there not so much because people look at the signs and obey the speed, it's the setting the roadway is in and how comfortable drivers are; they tend to drive the comfortable speed. I think the survey bears that out as far as where the 85th Percentile is. They're over 40 mph right. I think it's pretty cut and dry, I understand the neighborhood issues, but the fact of the matter is they are driving over 40 mph right now. I'm going to be supportive of staff's recommendation to forward this to the City Council. Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — If the 85 1 h Percentile shows 40 mph the requirement is for that to be posted, anything below that if anybody is cited and they present that at Court it is going to be dismissed, so enforcement becomes very loose in that stretch if you arbitrarily choose to keep it posted at 35 mph. Wayne Winthers, Asst, City Attorney — Once the traffic officers becomes aware the speed zone is not supported by the 85 Percentile they will not even write the citation because it cannot be supported, therefore they do not have the probable cause to plead it can be supported once they get to court. They won't even write the citation and put the burden on the individual to go fight it and find out about this, it's their burden not to write it in the beginning if they know it can't be supported. Sgt. leff Bird, OPD Traffic Bureau — We have to testify to the 85 0, Percentile, if we're not within 5 mph of that 85 1 h or unless there are other considerations on the roadway that traffic engineering has cited as a problem they won't support it. ACTION: Approve staff recommendation and forward this for Council hearing. MOTION: J. Beil Vice Chairman Lall — I'm extremely reluctant to go along with that just from the safety standpoint. I have a problem with the steepness of the grade; I would like to ask staff one more time if there are any options that the Commission has to keep the speed at the current level and be able to enforce it? Are we being told there is no way to enforce the speed limit below 40 mph on those particular segments of roadway? City of Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department B April 13 [N:/rraffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 Pg. 15 Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer - We can go back and review, we are very confident it does not qualify for any 5 mph reduction. We can take another look and see if there is anything we missed and bring it back to you next time. Vice Chairman Lall - That is a heavy pedestrian area and I think we should make every aspect of that thoroughly studied so if there is any way we can keep that speed limit enforceable at 35 mph that certainly would be in the best interest of the City. Chairman Beil - When does the speed zone expire? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst - It expires in June. Chairman Beil - So we're coming right up against it for enforcement. Vice Chairman Lall - I know we're pushing it but I think we need to make sure there's nothing we can do to keep that speed limit at 35 mph. If our hands are tied and we have to go to 40 mph after an exhaustive review then I would reluctantly go with it. Commissioner Lebeau - Looking at the accident history the residents' concerns, I share many of their concerns, but I'm wondering if we put this off to May if it could still be passed by the Council before the speed zone expires, which would be less than a month later. Chairman Beil - Does this have to go through 2 hearings? Wayne Winthers, Asst. City Attorney - Since it's by ordinance I believe it would have to. If we were on the May 10"' Council meeting and then to get on the second meeting in May, it would be their decision, but I don't think it would be effective for 30 days until after the 2 1d reading, which would be 30 days after the first meeting in June, so not until July. Chairman Beil -It just means you're really supposed to be out there doing the survey and resetting it, is that correct? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst - If the zone expires then you're probably not going to have any speed enforcement during that period of time. City of Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 7445536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department B April 13 [N:/I'raffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 14W Pg. 16 Commissioner Lebeau - I wouldn't want to put up signs that people can plainly disregard especially if the news spreads that they can't cite. Yet there is an elementary school right there, would a school zone would be enforceable regardless? Wayne Winthers, Asst. City Attorney - If the Commission takes no action the current speed limit would stay the same, the signs would stay the same, just at a certain point of time PD would just not enforce it. That would be the result whether it happens now or whether it happened even if you made a decision in May and then new signs wouldn't go up until at least 30 days after the second reading anyway. Chairman Beil - We can have staff go back and make one more cycle taking a look and really combing through it again. Vice Chairman Lall - I don't see any benefit to the city raising the speed limit if we don't have to, I think it's to benefit of the residents of the city to find any reasonable reason to keep it the way it is. I don t see any benefit in raising the speed limit outside of the State forcing us to and I don't like the State forcing us to do anything that isn't in the best interest of the City of Orange. Chairman Beil - Has there been any history of speed zones that do not conform, have expired, and there have been accidents where this has been used against the City? Wayne Winthers, Asst. City Attorney - Not that I am aware of. I think the only issue has ever been an enforcement issue, I think a citation may have been voided for that reason. Chairman Beil - The other option of denying the request and just letting it go until it expires, what does City staff do upon expiration? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst -A new ordinance would have to be written with some kind of a finding that would justify a 35 mph speed limit. The officers take a copy of our speed zone to court with them and when they are in court so is the person they issued the citation to, and when they see a 35 mph speed limit that's posted and then an 85% Percentile that is over 40 mph, my guess is they are going to get out of the ticket. ` City of Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department April 13 [N:/Praffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 Pg. 17 Commissioner Lebeau - Is the Traffic & Engineering survey summary that you prepared put us in that position where the speed limit would not be enforceable? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst - Until June the existing speed zone is in force but that takes into account the 600 ft. between San Juan Dr. and Santiago Canyon Rd. that was still 36 ft. wide and was a residential street at the time. Prior to that the 85% Percentile on the street was around 39 mph, so even before we got here if the road had always been developed as a Secondary arterial the speed limit would have been posted at 40 mph. It's simply because that 600 ft. had not been developed as a Secondary arterial and it had a prima facie speed of 25 mph that allowed us to have a 35 mph speed limit in the southerly section of Cannon St. I would also like to point out that the section of Cannon St. north of Santiago Canyon Rd. is posted at 45 mph. We have a hillside street there and a roadway width comparable to this particular section of Cannon St. as well. Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer - Are these survey documents public documents? Can anyone who is cited get these documents or what? Wayne Winthers, Asst. City Attorney - If they are the final survey documents they are public record, if someone wanted to get them they could. But again, first of all I don't think we would get there because I don't think PD would enforce it knowing it is not supported by the 85th Percentile or some other engineering finding that would justify a lower speed. An option is to deny the request, and if it's denied then if anyone wanted to appeal that denial they could and then Council would have their chance to hear it and make their decision. OR, there has been some discussion about possibly continuing it. I think the 3 choices are to approve, deny or continue. Approve would definitely get it to Council for them to decide if that is what they want in the ordinance. Deny could possibly get it to Council if somebody appealed it to Council; and Continue obviously would bring it back here next month. Vice Chairman Lall - I'm concerned that it's coming to us at a point when we don't have a chance to continue this without having a few weeks or a month time before the enforcement time would be allowed to lapse. I am comfortable with the fact that people are going to keep the same speed whether there is enforcement out there or not. I'd rather have us study this and see if the steepness of the grade or any other engineering circumstances can justify a speed limit of 35. 1 know on the other side of Cannon St. north of Santiago Canyon Rd. it is posted at 45 mph and I drive that quite a bit and if I'm heading south and City of Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department April 13 [N:/rraffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission – April 13, 2011 — Pg. 18 getting ready to turn onto Serrano I'm constantly in fear of the guy behind me driving right over me. I put my signal on well before I'm legally required to and I'm riding my brakes before entering that turn lane, so the person behind me has as much warning before they run me over as possible. I'd hate to see that mistake made on the south side of Cannon St. Chairman Beil - Is that a motion to continue this for a month and look at it again next month? Vice Chairman Lall - Yes, that would be my preference. Commissioner Lebeau - We could accept Vice Chairman Lall's substitute motion. Chairman Beil - I'd be willing to accept the substitute motion. ACTION: Continue to the May 11, 2011 meeting and have staff take a more detailed look at any geometric deficiencies. MOTION: N. Lall SECOND: M. Lebeau AYES: Unanimous k End of Consideration Itemskk V. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS None this month. ` City of Tape #CTC -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department April 13 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] a Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting - qty Traffic Commission — April 13, 2011 r Pg. 19 V1. ADJOURNMENT After discussion of today's Agenda the City Traffic Commission meeting was concluded, and as there were no further requests for action under Oral Presentations, the Chairman adjourned this session of the City Traffic Commission. The next meeting of the City Traffic Commission is scheduled: 5:30 P.M. Wednesday - May 11, 2011 Respectfully submitted, CITY OF ORANGE Phyllis Then, Recording Secretary Traffic Engineering Division then @c tvoforanze.or CITY OF ORANGE PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT 300 E. CHAPMAN AVENUE ORANGE CA 92866 PH: (714) 7445536 FAx: (714) 744 -5573 rang e City of =Please -31.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department Traffic /CTC /2010 Minutes] Printed On Recycled Paper