12-14-2011 - Minutes TCH
CITY OF ORANGE
H
CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION
Minutes of a Regular Meeting: December 14, 2011
I. OPENING
A. Flag Pledge
B. Roll Call
Present - Commissioners: J. Beil, N. Lall, M. Lebeau, W. King, C. Vaughan
Absent - Commissioners: None
Present - Staff: A. Farahani, W. Winthers, D. Allenbach, Sgt. J. Bird, P. Then
C. Approval of Minutes
• October 12, 2011
ACTION: Approved as published.
MOTION:
M. Lebeau
SECOND:
C. Vaughan
AYES:
Beil, Lebeau, King, Vaughan
NOES:
None
ABSTAIN:
N. Lall
• November 9, 2011
ACTION: Approved as published.
MOTION:
N. Lall
SECOND:
M. Lebeau
AYES:
Unanimous
NOES:
None
ABSTAIN:
None
II. ORAL PRESENTATIONS
None this month.
City of
rang
Public Works Department
Tape #CPC -3i.og of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — December 14, 2011 Pg. 2
III. CONSENT CALENDAR
None this month.
IV. CONSIDERATION ITEMS
1. Request to replace the red curb on Almond Ave. in front of West Orange
Elementary School with yellow 'CARGO' loading zone.
Michael Olander, Prinicpal
West Orange Elementary School
243 S. Bush St.
Orange, CA 92868
Kevin Enemaker, Director
Facilities, Planning & Technology
Orange Unified School District
726 W. Collins Ave.
Orange, CA 92867 -4334
Oral presentation is based on the written staff report, please refer to your copy.
Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for discussion of this item (there were no
comments from the public during this discussion).
Commissioner Vaughan — Did staff get any response to the proposed plan?
Were they told about the proposed green curb as opposed to what was
requested?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — We have not received any response to
our notification letters. They were notified of the Traffic Commission meeting,
we don't get into the specifics of our recommendations, we advise them that
their request will be heard at a specific date and time.
Chairman Beil — I think the staff proposal is a good proposal and I think it really
accomplishes what they're asking for. We've run into this in the past where
there was a misunderstanding of CARGO loading zone with a WHITE curb
loading zone where the GREEN zone is what works for the City and is
enforceable. It cleans up the whole parking area.
Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — The green curb allows parking up to 15
minutes if they have to leave the car to take their kids into the school, a yellow
curb does not allow them to leave their car.
City of Tape #CTC -31.09 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
Public Works Department
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — December 14, 2011 Pg. 3
Chairman Beil — Being in front of the Kindergarten playground and pick -up area
quite often you have to leave your car for a few minutes.
ACTION:
A. Denied the installation of a yellow CARGO loading zone in the existing
104 ft. of red curb area.
B. Approved the installation of 74 ft. of green curb posted for "15- Minute'
parking.
C. Approved leaving 30 ft. of red curb at the southeast corner of Almond
Ave. and Bush St. for sight distance.
MOTION: N. Lall
SECOND: W. King
AYES: Unanimous
2. Request for the removal of on- street parking within the cul -de -sac of Old Camp
Road.
Rosalind Chu
2722 N. Longhurst St.
Orange, CA 92867
Oral presentation is based on the written staff report, please refer to your copy.
Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion.
Rosalind Chu, 2722 N. Longhurst St — In favor of parking removal. One of the
major impacts is noise disturbance. The area isn't used by condo residents it's
the park users most of the time, and they create a lot of noise for the houses that
back up to that side of the street. (Submits packet of information).
Robin Golder, 8526 E. Heatherview Ln — In favor of parking removal. During
the November 9 1 h Commission meeting staff acknowledged that the cul -de -sac
was being used mostly by park users. You could restrict the parking hours, or
perhaps install signs for residents parking only.
rang e City of EPIase ACTC -31.09 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
ct the Recor ding Secretary at (714) 744 5536 in this regard, advance nofice is appreciated.
Public Works Department r 2011 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2011 Minutes] Printed On Recycled Paper
Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — December 14, 2011 Pe. 4
Terese Dann, 231 S. Firenza Way — I back up to Old Camp Rd. and I have
brought you information of dates and times of parking in the cul -de -sac, you can
see how close the bedroom windows are to the parking area. The other photos
are of Park users parked in the cul -de -sac. Also I have provided data of parking
usage at various times of the day since the last Traffic Commission meeting.
Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for
further discussion and a motion.
Chairman Beil — How extensively did we notify in the condominium complex?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — We notify a 300 ft. radius; this went
down pretty close to Canyon View including sections of the Enclave
development and the Canyon Hills development. While we don't have the
names of the board members of this HOA we do know their property manager
and we sent her a notification letter and tried to contact her by phone, we did not
receive any return phone calls, we would have been happy to email a report to
her. In 1976 when this issue was first talked about it was a fairly contentious
issue about removing the on- street parking. There are several times when there
isn't demand for on- street parking and that also happens during the day. We
have visited the location two or three times a day and we've seen it full and also
empty. Most likely it Park users that are using this area and avoiding paying the
parking fee. During our study we drove into Peter's Canyon parking lot, at no
time did we find the parking lot to be full. So all of the people parked on Old
Camp Rd. could have very easily been accommodated in the Park and not need
to use this area for ancillary parking.
Commissioner Vaughan — This is kind of a between issue, the permit parking
within the neighborhood was clearer and my own house has a similar scenario
because there is commercial property adjacent to my backyard, and a
condominium complex on the other side, so I am familiar with the issues
mentioned in the testimony. I understand that you get some wild stuff but for
me it's not as clear -cut as if it were inside your neighborhood and there is certain
inherent thing you have to put up with when you live that close to a Park.
Seeing someone from your window, anybody who lives in a 2 -story home that
has any type of a street or in your neighbor's yard you can see in there, that's just
something that happens when you're up higher.
City of Tape #C7C -31.09 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
Public Works Department
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I Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commissi — December 14, 2011 PQ. 5
Chairman Beil — What are the Park hours?
Dave Allenbach Transportation Analyst — The Park opens about 7 AM, I believe
they close the gate to inbound traffic at 5 PM, that changes with the time change,
but the Park is completely closed by 5:30 PM.
Chairman Beil — Are there instances in the City where we have no parking, I
guess we do on streets with bike lanes we have "NO PARKING 7:30 AM to 4:30
PM," where we restrict parking during the daytime. Is there a gate on Sugar Loaf
Peak Rd.?
Dave Allenbach Transportation Analyst — No, they are private streets but they
are not gated.
Chairman Beil — So if someone is visiting there is no need for them, if they don't
have to stop out there they can drive in.
Commissioner Vaughan — Is it just the noise, like I said living adjacent to the
common area you have to put up with a lot of things.
Terese Dann, 231 S. Firenza Way — It's the noise mainly between 6 — 8 AM
Saturday and Sunday mornings. It's very loud, the stereos blasting, people
talking, etc. If you could post it for No Parking between 6 — 8 AM on those two
days it would be really good; I can't sleep in.
Commissioner Lebeau — I sympathize with the residents, perhaps we could
restrict parking on the west 100 ft. side of the cul -de -sac for No Parking on
Saturday- Sunday's.
Robin Golder, 8526 E. Heatherview Ln — In respect to the noise, sound carries
you can hear things in the Park, car alarms, people talking and laughing, they are
outside but you can still hear them.
Chairman Beil — Are there any instances where we have restricted parking on the
weekends or other than curbside parking for bike lanes for daytime hours?
City of Tape #CTC -31.09 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
Public Works Department
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — December 14, 2011 P 6
Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — As you mentioned on the bike lanes we
have two time limits one for 2 hours in the morning and 1 hour in the afternoon,
our peak hours. Other than that I can't recall any similar restrictions.
ACTION: Deny the request to remove parking in the cul -de -sac of Old
Camp Road.
MOTION: W. King
Motion dies for lack of Second.
Commissioner Vaughan - I would like to explore doing something along the
lines of time restricted parking because it seems reasonable since it is a common
area. There's nothing you can do, those same women could park in the shopping
center and have an extra long walk and they still might come and cackle by your
house. That's what I meant about inherent things we have to deal with. I would
like to assist them with at least keeping people honest in making it more viable to
have an understanding between the Park users and the residents.
Vice Chairman Lail — I live real close to Santiago Oaks Wilderness Park and I
walk there almost on a daily basis with my dogs, I see a lot of cars parked down
the street in front of my neighbors houses and I'm aware that the local high
school has their cross - country track team meet there during the summers and
there are dozens and dozens of people and there is litter, noise and some
disruption. I agree with my fellow Commissions that this is kind of an in-
betweener, we've eliminated so much parking in that area and I'd hate to see us
eliminate any more parking but I understand the noise concerns. I would like us
to try to find another solution, perhaps a time restraint on mornings so you can
at least sleep until 8 AM undisturbed. As an avid Park user I would hate to pay
$3 for parking every day.
Chairman Beil — You can buy an annual Pass.
Vice Chairman Lall — I don't want to see access to the Park really restricted so
that people don't use the Park, on the County level we spend quite a lot of
money on its maintenance every year.
City of Tape #CTC -31.09 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
Public Works Department
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — December 14, 2011 PQ, 7
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Through the course of our study we
wrote down license numbers and tried to see if there was a pattern. There were
very few repeat Park users so that indicates to us that most of these people are
actually using the Park. One of the down sides of having parking restrictions at
8 AM is if you are a resident of the condos and you are parking out there at night
you had better have your vehicle off the street by 8 AM. If you're like me on a
Saturday morning, that's probably not going to fly very well. A full -time
restriction would be easier to enforce, it would hopefully put these people, and if
the majority of them are using the Park it would put them in the parking lot
where they should be parking. It's a nice facility and it's a $3 fee to get in, it's
really not that expensive. If there are people from the condos that feel they need
this area for parking it is going to be somewhat expensive to them. On the other
hand as we drive through the complex there are several open parking spaces so
there is room for 8 vehicles.
ACTION: Approved the request to extend the no parking that is currently
on both sides of Old Camp Rd. in the cul -de -sac.
Commissioner King — So you'd want all that area to be "NO PARKING "? You
want to do away with 8 parking places?
Chairman Beil — Yes given the fact that the Enclave has internal parking and it's
not gated, you can drive in and there is no need to park out there, unless you
want to put in parking meters.
Commissioner Lebeau — Is that a viable option, putting in parking meters?
Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — I'm not sure if we have any nearby or in
the City if meters are even enforceable?
Commissioner Vaughan — Does anyone ever park in the cul -de -sac in order to
utilize the common area only?
Robin Golder, 8526 E. Heatherview Ln — That's where we all walk our dogs. It
doesn't really go anywhere so I can't say definitively if anyone parks there in
order to use the area. Area children use it as a short -cut walking to school.
Commissioner Lebeau — How many parking spaces are there at the Park?
City of Tape UCTC -31.09 of this City Traffic Conunission meeting is available for your review.
rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 7445536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
Public Works Department
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — December 14, 2011 PQ. 8 1
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — It's not a paved lot with marked
parking stalls. You may remember we had Park officials here last month and
they said at some point next year they are going to expand the parking lot. My
guess there is probably room for about 25 -30 vehicles. There is also an
equestrian staging area within the Park's parking lot.
Chairman Beil — There are some alternatives being talked about of potentially
just taking off 4 spaces, wrapping the no parking on the west side and leaving it
on the east side.
Vice Chairman Lall — I don't see that as really solving the problem.
Chairman Beil — What I think that would create is people knowing they can fit 4-
5 cars they will be driving through there in the morning and checking to see if
it's available first, then there will be a lot of early morning traffic coming up the
street and just making a U -turn because they may be full, and then head back to
the Park. If you take all the parking away people will do that once or twice and
then they're done, they won't bother to check because they understand there is
no parking up there. That's why I'm inclined to say we should go ahead and
extend it all the way around.
ACTION: Approved the request to extend the NO PARKING that is currently
on both sides of Old Camp Rd. in the cul -de -sac.
MOTION:
J. Beil
SECOND:
M. Lebeau
AYES:
Beil, Lall, Lebeau, Vaughan
NOES:
King
ABSTAIN:
None
City of Tape #CTC -31.09 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
Public Works Department
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3. Request for the installation of red curb markings on both sides of the driveway
serving 4324 E. Jordan Avenue.
Iry Sigel
4324 E. Jordan Ave.
Orange, CA 92869
Oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy.
Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion (there were no
comments from the public during this discussion).
Vice - Chairman Lall — For clarification purposes, what is the law regarding
someone partially blocking a driveway, overhanging like that? Is that
enforceable?
Sgt. ieff Bird, OPD Traffic Bureau — It is only enforceable if the offender has
blocked the driveway while the resident is trying to enter or exit the driveway.
Vice - Chairman Lall — Is there a local ordinance we could employ whether it
exists currently or not to stop that from happening?
Wayne Winthers, Asst. City Attorney — I'm not sure, but I doubt it because it is
probably preempted by the fact that the State has already occupied that area by
having a code section that probably deals with that; we probably could not make
another code saying the same thing or that you can cite, without more research I
cannot give you a definitive answer.
ACTION: Denied the request for red curb markings.
Vice Chairman Lall — We've seen similar complaints on this issue and I would
really hate to lose on- street parking because of some inconsiderate people. I'd
like to research some way of helping these residents. By the time someone is
leaving their driveway they can get an officer out there because obviously this
isn't a high priority call, and if there are other activities the Police are doing at
the time I can see where this would be nothing but a nagging ongoing problem.
I'd like to see if we can find some other solution. I don't want to deny anybody
parking but I don't want to have this come to us time and time again and tell
them we don't want to red curb the street but there's nothing we can do. Can the
City of Tape #CTC -31.09 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
Public Works Department
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — December 14, 2011 Pg. 10
City Attorney or Police Dept. or anybody can find some way of getting these
people relief without forcing us to have to put in red curb.
Sgt. Teff Bird, OPD Traffic Bureau — We educate new transient population of
parents and students at the beginning of the school term and there are some
schools where this problem occurs more than others. We are also finding that
some of the schools are changing the way they do business, they are no longer
staggering their arrival and departure times but they are having everyone travel
at the same time. This creates a traffic problem for us. We ask the schools to
send out a memo to all the parents to how to arrive to the school; and also to
utilize their voice -mail system they can send out a message to the parents on the
same thing, in the hopes the parents will listen and not park in those areas. This
is a short term problem where they are there 5 -10 minutes but it's not simple for
the homeowner when they are trying to leave their home, especially if it happens
every single day. We will contact this school's Principal and request them to
send out a flyer to the parents and to activate their voice -mail message system
with a similar message.
Wayne Winthers, Asst. City Attorney — I will also see that our office puts this on
our projects list and we'll do some research to see if an ordinance could be
implemented and if there is such I will bring it to the Traffic Commission to get
your thoughts and then send it on to the City Council if it is something we can
do.
Chairman Beil — This driveway it actually serves two residences?
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — That's correct, it is a fairly large
property and there are 2 houses accessing this driveway.
Chairman Beil — Just by looking at the configuration of the driveway as it goes
into the houses there is actually room down there for vehicles to exit going
forward.
Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — There is room for the vehicles to turn
around and head out as opposed to backing out of the driveway.
Chairman Beil — I think that makes a big difference.
'City of Tape #CTC -31.09 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
lJrang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
Public Works Department
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Minutes of a Regular Meeting - City Traffic Commission — December 14, 2011 Pe. 11 1
ACTION: Denied the request for red curb markings.
MOTION:
C. Vaughan
SECOND:
M. Lebeau
AYES:
Unanimous
NOES:
None
ABSTAIN:
None
kk End of Consideration Itemsk
V. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS
None this month.
VI. ADJOURNMENT
After discussion of today's Agenda the City Traffic Commission meeting was
concluded, and as there were no further requests for action under Oral
Presentations, the Chairman adjourned this session of the City Traffic
Commission.
The next meeting of the City Traffic Commission is scheduled:
5:30 P.M.
Wednesday - February 8, 2012
Respectfully submitted,
CITY OF ORANGE
Phyllis Then, Recording Secretary
Traffic Engineering Division
pthen @cityoforange.org
CITY OF ORANGE
PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT
300 E. CHAPMAN AVENUE
ORANGE CA 92866
PH: (714) 744 -5536
FAX: (714) 744 -5573
City°{ Tape #C-31.09 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review.
rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 7445536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated.
Public Works Department
December 2011 [N:/rraffic /CTC /2011 Minutes] Printed On Recycled Paper