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02-13-2013 - Minutes TCE\✓ CITY OF ORANGE CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION Minutes of a Regular Meeting: February 13, 2013 I. OPENING A. Flag Pledge B. Roll Call Present - Commissioners: J. Beil, E. Glasgow, M. Lebeau Absent - Commissioners: W. King, C. Vaughan Present - Staff: A. Farahani, D. Allenbach, D. Hoard, Sgt. J. Bird, P. Then C. Approval of Minutes • October 10, 2012 ACTION: Approved as published. MOTION: Lebeau SECOND: Glasgow AYES: Unanimous NOES: None ABSTAIN: None • November 14, 2012 ACTION: Approved as published. MOTION: Glasgow SECOND: Lebeau AYES: Unanimous NOES: None ABSTAIN: None • December 12, 2012 ACTION: Approved as published. MOTION: Glasgow SECOND: Lebeau AYES: Unanimous NOES: None ABSTAIN: None `g City of rang Public Works Department Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. B February 2013 [N: /Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] Of Printed On Recycled Paper � Page 12 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 II. ORAL PRESENTATIONS None this month. III. CONSENT CALENDAR None this month. IV. CONSIDERATION ITEMS 1. Request for installation of an All -Way STOP at the intersection of Palmyra Ave. and Cypress St. Kristin Gericke 325 W. Palmyra Ave. Orange, Ca. 92866 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion: Kristin Gericke, 325 W. Palmyra Ave. — Did you evaluate the speed of the vehicles on the street, I live right there. When people stop at Lemon they just take off and the railroad tracks do not slow people down at all. It looks to me that people are going 50 mph down the street. I was hoping to have the STOP sign put in to alleviate some of that danger. When I try to cross the street I feel like I'm going to get killed. Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — We did not do a speed analysis on Palmyra because STOP signs are not intended to control speed. You'll get speed attenuation for probably about 120 — 150 ft. on either side of the STOP control. STOP signs are intended to assign right of way. The type of accident we would be looking to correct would be a right angle type where somebody making a left turn coming out of the intersection and is hit by somebody that is going through. When we conduct a STOP analysis at an intersection we do not do speed surveys. City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department � � February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] 14 Printed On Recycled Paper V Page 13 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for further discussion and a motion. ACTION: Denied the request. MOTION: Beil SECOND: Glasgow AYES: Unanimous Chairman Beil — We did receive email from two residents at the intersection opposed to the STOP control. [Revised motion and second by only.] 2. Request for the installation of an All -Way STOP at the intersection of Culver Ave. and Pixley St. Nicholas Mirzayans 256 S. Parker St. Orange, Ca. 92868 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. Chairman Beil — Do we have any history of traffic volumes over time if they have changed on Pixley St.? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — No, because of its residential nature Pixley St. is not counted, but from what we can see it's a typical volume for a residential street, it's nothing unusual. There were no speakers from the public. Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for further discussion and a motion. ACTION: Denied the request. MOTION: Lebeau SECOND: Glasgow AYES: Unanimous City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department A February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] 0 0 Printed On Recycled Paper 0 0 Page 14 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 3. Request for extension of the existing red curb on Palm Ave. at the entrance of Hampton Court (private street). Andrew Wynsen 132 S. Anita Dr. Orange, Ca. 92868 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. Commissioner Glasgow — I understand it will bring this intersection in conformance with other residential intersections with 30 ft.? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Palm Ave. is a 25 MPH street and when we put in red curb at an intersection on a street like this it is typically 30 feet. Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion: Diane Alvarez, 630 E. Palm Ave. — In favor of request. I go out that driveway quit often and you can see there is an SUV parked right there when you're trying to turn left you can't see what's coming. Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for further discussion and a motion. ACTION: Approved the request, to install 10 ft. of red curb on the west side of the intersection, and 13 ft. of red curb on the east side of the intersection. MOTION: Glasgow SECOND: Lebeau AYES: Unanimous City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department R B February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] I# Printed On Recycled Paper N 1 0 Page 15 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 4. Request to prohibit the eastbound through move on Serrano Ave. at Santiago Blvd. on weekdays between 7:30 AM and 8:30 AM. Detra Matthews 625 E. Katella Ave. Orange, Ca. 92867 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. Chairman Beil — The recommendation on the prohibition of the through move, is this a very unique thing, has been used anywhere else in the City? Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — We have received a few similar requests but as far as I remember we have not done it, except I believe we did it on the side of Linda Vista School. Chairman Beil — From an enforcement perspective, given the fact that we assume we're not making changes to the phasing of the signal and there will still be a green light, and yet you're expected to comply with a signing ordinance. Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — We are going to provide signage on the mast arms adjacent to the green ball of the signal indication, and if we see there is a need we are going to have the secondary on the other side, also on the post. Chairman Beil — To me it would be very confusing I would think. If you made a right in there and you come out there are a lot of words on that sign, I dori t know how big the lettering can be and how visible the sign will be, but you're going to see the green ball come on. I see that as a real difficulty to anybody that happens to go in there. Have you investigated other ways of doing this, with changing or providing an extra signal head a green, basically a right -turn green arrow and do a different type of prohibition just basically say RIGHT TURN ONLY 7 AM TO 9 AM? Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — We did not look into that item because of the cost. Anytime we get into changing the heads or some sort of indications that provide information such as that, it going to be costly and we through this would be the most cost effective measure. Commissioner Beil — Has the City of Villa Park offered any funding, or has the Orange Unified School District offered any funding to help mitigate the issue? City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department 4* 2�7 February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] Vo Printed On Recycled Paper Page 16 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — For the past year or so we have been working with the School and also the City of Villa Park to mitigate this congestion which is basically a drop off and pick up for the school. The City of Villa Park has done several improvement measures such as enhancing near the driveways or extending the red curbs or that type of improvement. Because costs were involved we had meetings with the Serrano School, the City and City Council and we were told that the City of Villa Park does not have any funding available. We were looking for small improvements. We already made one improvement on Santiago Blvd. we opened the southbound left turn pocket, it was relatively short and we opened it up so the storage is not much longer and to encourage more parents to use that left turn instead of going to the cul -de -sac and making a U -turn. Chairman Beil — I drive by there almost daily in the morning dropping off at another school and I go southbound through that area and it's a little earlier than 8 AM, it's usually a little after 7 AM, and I never see problems at that time so it must be a very short peak. Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — Just like any other school for that 25 -35 minute period. Chairman Beil — Even if we do this type of signing when a vehicle makes a turn into this street and makes a U -turn at the end of the cul -de -sac and they come back out, they are going to trigger the phase, so I guess I'm trying to understand how does that really help increase the amount of time for those left - turning vehicles. Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — East — west is only one phase and the only thing it's going to prevent is when there is a though move it prevents the westbound left turn making a southbound move. That is 30 -35 vehicles in that period of time, they're going to queuing up the westbound vehicles are backing up and blocking the school's parking lot exits and also the entrances and that's how the traffic jam begins. We're hoping by eliminate that and I'm sure we are going to get help from the police for enforcement and since the parents are using that lane after the police enforcement for a few days I'm sure they will learn the new restrictions and comply with that. City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department d � February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] �� Printed On Recycled Paper Page 17 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 Commissioner Glasgow — Could there a possibility where those two westbound lights are set up to run independently so the eastbound light would come on and allow traffic to come through westbound and then the north and southbound at Santiago Blvd. would come on. Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — That is what the phasing is and in order to do that we have to do some modifications to the traffic signal systems and because we have brand new items to add it is about $30- $40,000. That is one of the items that we presented to the schools, to the school board, the City and they rejected it. The downside to that would be adding 25 -30 seconds extra time to the cycle length and that was one the issues, because north -south is very busy also in the morning and afternoon peak. Chairman Beil Have you done any studies on the pedestrian counts on these crossings because the PED call on the signal can really mess up the phases and throw all your timing off and usually close to school hours there are a lot of PED calls, have you looked at that? Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — They're huge. We have done several counts and the numbers are very high and we are working with the police to train the new crossing guard to make sure the crossing guard is not going to allow the kids to cross randomly, but rather to platoon them across the street and the green time is going to be more effective for the motorists. Chairman Beil — Would it be helpful to look at removing one of the legs of the PED crossing at that location? Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — We looked at that, it was one of the first options. The problem is the nature of the two schools, one is an elementary school and Cerro Villa is a junior high school and preventing those kids on the south side just obeying and with no crosswalk even though we would install those railings and signs prohibiting pedestrian crossings, but we were afraid there is potential for the kids to run across the street and the liability was so high. Commissioner Lebeau — I share your concerns about the signage and I share your concerns that it won't be a parent to drive through that area and the through move would be prohibited. I understand the police can enforce it, and I think Sgt. Bird mentioned the through move is prohibited on westbound Taft Ave. not so much on a timing basis but on a constant basis. Did you calculate any ratio of the vehicles entering the cul -de -sac whether they were coming from the north or from the south? City of Tape tlCTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] 4� Printed On Recycled Paper C 0 Page 18 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Yes we did counts at the intersection, we really wanted to determine exactly where the peak hour was so we started our counts at 7:15 AM and went through 8:30 AM. During that entire 11/2 hour we had 54 right turns from southbound traffic and at the same time we have 275 left turns southbound turning left onto eastbound Serrano Ave. In the northbound we have 4 left turns from Santiago into Serrano, and 204 making a right turn, northbound onto eastbound. But at the same time we have 31 through coming from the cul -de -sac. Commissioner Lebeau — Would it be safe to say that most of the 54 that are making that right turn make up most the people that are going through? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — That is our belief. There are some that I think are coming in and making a right and dropping off their children, going through the cul -de -sac and making a right or left turn on their way to work, I would say 31 of the 54 vehicles went through. Commissioner Lebeau — Did the City think about restricting right turns off Santiago Blvd. into the cul -de -sac and if that option was disregarded what was the reason for that? Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — We didn't consider that for a couple of reasons. That cul -de -sac is a good neighborhood nobody complains and it's sort of like a drop -off for some of the kids which in a sense helps the traffic on Serrano and so maybe there are 20 -30 dropping off the kids make a left or right and go on to their work instead of going towards the school. That was one option, and normally it is easier to prohibit the through moves and we thought that was causing the problem. Commissioner Lebeau — Would it be easier to enforce a NO RIGHT TURN in that situation than a NO THROUGH MOVE? Sgt. Jeff Bird, Traffic Bureau, Orange Police Dept. — It would be easier, I think you would have to put on there RESIDENTS ONLY or something like that. The only issue we see because we like the NO THROUG MOVE but we don't like the language on the sign. I would rather see RIGHT and LEFT TURN ONLY during that time than NO THROUGH MOVE because I don't think a lot of people are going to understand what a THROUGH MOVE means. lb City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department A' 0 February 2013 [N:/rraffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] W Printed On Recycled Paper 0 Q Page Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 Commissioner Glasgow — I agree with you during that time period just make it a RIGHT TURN ONLY coming out of the cul -de -sac, don't allow any left turns. They come in and they pull out, they can only turn right they don't have the option of going through. That can be set up for just the school hours or it could be set up permanently as a RIGHT TURN ONLY lane. Commissioner Lebeau — I don't think permanently restricting it is a good idea because of the 5 homes on that street. Chairman Beil — When somebody coming out of the cul -de -sac triggers the phase how long do they wait before they get the green? Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — I can't exactly recall the cycle lengths but it depends on what time of the phase they are in. If the northbound had just started then they probably have to wait 40 -50 seconds. Chairman Beil — Can you increase that wait time for that directional phase at certain periods of the day? I see this as a behavioral issue of drivers, they have learned to do this, so to modify that behavior it could be a burden on the area residents but to modify that behavior you assign more wait time for them. Sgt. Jeff Bird, Traffic Bureau, Orange Police Dept. - I've sat at this intersection numerous times this is an extremely busy intersection in the morning. There are 4 schools in a very close proximity to one another, 3 of which have very limited parking, 3 of which were not designed to have the amount of traffic they currently experience, it's a gridlock issue. The problem is the cars cannot leave the school that are trying to get out, and if they can't get out nobody can get in. Chairman Beil — I'm not saying to delay the timing for westbound phase, I taking about the cars sitting in the cul -de -sac. Sgt. Jeff Bird, Traffic Bureau Orange Police Dept. — We've had Chris come out and change that time for us numerous time to try to make it amicable. My understanding is that particular intersection has very old equipment and what you change for that loop in the west is the same as what you change for east, you can't offset the two. `? City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department A' B February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] 17 Printed On Recycled Paper C ® Page 110 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — Probably just the one phase there might be some difficulty to do that but we can make changes to see what impact it may have on westbound traffic. Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for further discussion. Heidi Mairena, 2190 N. Pami Cr. — In favor of request. I am PFO President for Serrano Elementary School; I am very familiar with the intersection. I am one of those parents who have learned that trick that is because the 200+ cars trying to turn left on to Serrano to proceed westbound to get either to Cerro Villa or to Serrano. The light permits 16 -18 cars to make a left turn; I reside on Pami Cr. the intersection of Meats Ave. and Pami Cr. It has now become a problem where when I exit Pami Cr. to make a left onto Meats traffic is now backed up to my street. Those are cars trying to make a right turn onto Santiago Blvd., they are now stopped because they are trying to make the left turn to the schools. For an individual like me I actually cut across the intersection, over across Sacramento to Taft, I take a left on Taft and a left on Santiago Blvd. and a right into the school and that is actually quicker for me. However, on days when I have left a 7:50 AM I have learned the trick of going into the cul -de -sac, I am one of those 30+ vehicles that go straight through the intersection. I've spent numerous days standing out there with City staff in the morning watching cars that do proceed through the intersection, whether they are Cerro Villa or Serrano School parents. The gridlock comes in the school. I've spent countless time at Villa Park meetings because as you mentioned the schools are not designed for what we have. The gridlock happens when vehicles are trying to exit the parking lot the City of Villa Park has helped us in widening our driveway, prohibiting left turn exits during peak hour, so vehicles exiting my school in the AM and PM are only permitted to make a right on to Serrano Ave., therefore they are either going to make either a right onto Santiago Blvd. or left onto Santiago Blvd. The majority of those vehicles are making a left. When you have those cars coming through the cul -de -sac straight through it is holding up the left turn on to Santiago Blvd. therefore cars can't exit the parking lot, parents coming from Cerro Villa have backed up and now we can't get more cars off the street into our parking lot because I have had 4 lanes, 2 are drop off and 2 are drive - through, 27 parking spaces. The City of Villa Park has installed red curb from our driveway back to their street. They have done what they can, we have brought as many people we have a traffic crew of 25 volunteer parents who bring people in, we can get people off the street to appease Villa Park residents. The thorn in my side is that light at the intersection that falls to the City of Orange, trying to get the parents ` City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department 41W B February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] S4# Printed On Recycled Paper M Paf;e III Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 and 85% of my student body parents are Orange residents, trying to get them out of the school to make that left or right, we are working with the new crossing guard, she has a tendency of bringing people in to cross the street when the PED hand is red or it's not the appropriate time. She does like to cross people across the cul -de -sac when she doesn't have the WALK signal; there are issues there that need to be attended to. However, I strongly feel for the benefit of the residents prohibiting a right or left turn would be fine but prohibiting vehicles from doing that will free up that lane to continually flow left, therefore moving traffic off Serrano that is traveling westbound and it will allow cars to exit my driveway making a right and getting out of the area and freeing up the street for the Villa Park residents. I am willing to work with the City, we have no problem sending emails, flyers home advising residents, people are aware that there are changes coming so anything we can do to help. This is one solution other than having a whole new traffic signal with the protected left turn phase but cost is an issue. Robert Paulson, 2649 E. Serrano Ave. — Opposed to the request. Strange how we all have the same data yet we look at it differently. My data pretty much coincides with yours, I counted on Monday from 7:25 AM to 8 AM in the cul -de- sac and 45 cars came in there, 25 did the loop and came right out. That's pretty good; the bad thing is in the afternoon. In the morning they drop the kids off then they continue on their way. In the afternoon that cul -de -sac has room for 13 cars to park parallel to the curb, one is taken away for the fire hydrant and the crossing guard parks in one, which leaves 11 spaces available. I guarantee you in the afternoon to pick up it takes longer they have to park and in the afternoon that cul -de -sac is just full of traffic violations. Instead of parallel parking there is perpendicular parking, there is double - parking all over the place, they are double - parking cars and trash cans. What I'm afraid off is if you go through here and if 25 cars come in and zip through if you don't let them do that they are going to stop in the cul -de -sac in the morning to let the kids out and it's going to become exactly like it is in the afternoon. Chairman Beil — I see you are a resident of the cul -de -sac what's your thoughts on limiting the through moves in the morning? Robert Paulson, 2649 E. Serrano Ave. — Make them all go through like that, it will clean out the cul -de -sac in a hurry. They just stop and open the door and let them out. In the afternoon they have to get there 10 minutes early and park, there is room for 11 and they get 25 cars in there, somebody is parking illegally. City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department 41W n February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] VIP Printed On Recycled Paper 0 Page 112 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 Chairman Beil — We're trying to deal with clearing out that southbound left turn lane primarily in the peak time. You're bringing up almost a completely different issue, it's essentially becoming a drop zone and pick up zone. Robert Paulson, 2649 E. Serrano Ave. — I'm afraid that if you don't allow these people coming in and circle and then go through they'll drop off their kids there and then go through and it will be just like the afternoon. Commissioner Lebeau — During your survey did you notice how many cars were turning right coming into the cul -de -sac versus how many were turning left into the cul -de -sac? Robert Paulson, 2649 E. Serrano Ave. — Most of them were turning right, probably 4 to 1 ratio. Commissioner Lebeau — If they restrict the turning times into the cul -de -sac how will that affect you, and your ability to get in and out of there? Robert Paulson, 2649 E. Serrano Ave. — I don't try to get in out of there during that time of day. I've been to several Villa Park meetings when they have talked about traffic and the last time I went there they talked about these streets and they didn't mention that cul -de -sac at all because it's in Orange. Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for further discussion and a motion. Chairman Beil — In regards to the idea of restricting right turns I think that would be an undue burden on the residents of that cul -de -sac. There may be other people tha#live there that want to travel and trying to get home and coming from one direction they are going to have to change their travel pattern just to get to their house. Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — If you restricted the southbound right turn I think Serrano is going to be pretty much jammed, they will learn to on Grove and make a U -turn then come back and make a left onto the cul -de -sac and do the same thing. That creates another trip in the area that really isn't needed. Chairman Beil — What if we tell Villa Park that we're going to make westbound Serrano right turn only. g City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department ow CJ February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] 1P Printed On Recycled Paper N V Pate 113 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 Commissioner Glasgow — I go back to look at restricting them coming out of there as a right turn only, learn to go one way, they can't go left they can only go right coming out of there and it alleviates the problem of the cross through, also alleviating a little bit of the problem of the left turn as they are not waiting for each other. I think it will move faster, in the afternoons I know waiting is big issue, maybe the residents of the cul -de -sac should request a permit parking only on their cul -de -sac, it's easier to enforce, they can't stop, and they have to leave. Chairman Beil — Even with any restrictions we put in to try to help that westbound Serrano flow people are still going to park over there because there is nowhere else to park as they wait for school to get out. It's a completely different issue. Ultimately a big signal upgrade, which is costly, is the right way to fix this to figure out a different phasing pattern that could be timed differently at different times of the day. I was really concerned about this restricting through movement I've heard our Traffic officers concern, and it's the same concern I think we have regarding the language on the signing. I think perhaps there is better language that is a little simpler; I didn't think anybody would understand NO THROUGH MOVEMENT. I used to work with Caltrans and one of our Traffic Engineers put up a sign on the carpool lanes on the I -5 Fwy. that says IGRESS /EGRESS, the industry may use that but the public does not understand that. Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — We are going to think about the language for the signs most probably we are going to use the straight arrow with a red circle and slash crossing it, and underneath it will say from 7:30 AM to 8:30 AM, that is probably clearer and would work. Chairman Beil — Even something simpler still saying what they can do versus what they can't do would work. I wish I knew what everybody that lives in this cul -de -sac feel about this through restriction. In the absence of that when you look at a m'ap where would the people in the cul -de -sac go if they wanted to go through at that time of the day. They are close enough where anybody could drop off at the school so they would probably be walking across the street with the crossing guard and there really aren't any other destinations to make that through move during in those peak hours. Commissioner Glasgow — Maybe we could have staff look at restricting to a right turn only between 7:30 — 8:30 AM and discussing with the neighbors of the cul- de -sac with maybe filing for permit parking only to alleviate the problem in the afternoon, and then bring it back next month. City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department A- B February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] Ii# Printed On Recycled Paper C Page 114 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 Chairman Beil — I can see that but I think we should bifurcate hose two issues. I think that is an issue Mr. Paulson has heard and that really takes a proponent from that cul -de -sac to initiate any parking permit program. It is a completely separate issue from the issue before us where we are trying to change the traffic flow in the intersection itself. Commissioner Glasgow — But it wouldn't allow parents to go in there to park they would have to move out of the cul-de-sac. We want to keep traffic moving through there, they are going to go in, you can't restrict them from coming southbound and turning right so we restrict them from turning one way on the other side, but we don't want them to park there either. Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — The permit parking doesn't restrict them to park and drop off the kids while they are sitting behind the wheel. If its red curb they can't stop, if it's a sign that says no parking they can still sit in their cars behind the wheel and drop off their kids. That is legal. Chairman Beil — Is it within our purview to specifically approve the signing language? Or can we approve the concept and direct staff to review the language prior to implementation and work with the Police Dept. to monitor that signage and see how it works? Denah Hoard, Asst. City Attorney — You can do anything you want. Your hesitations can be addressed by staff, if you'd like to approve the item and ask that it be brought back before you next month with signage ideas you absolutely can have that because you can delay the installation of the signs. If you do not like the signs it may potentially cause a problem later, so you may want to move to address this issue at the next meeting and have staff bring back some signing options. ACTION: Continue this item with staff bringing back some other signing option ideas after taking with the Traffic enforcement to figure out what is an easily readable sign that would be acceptable, enforceable to anybody who happens to turn in there. The residents will know, people that do it a lot will get used to it, but people that turn in will not understand it. Also I'm still concerned that no matter what we do in the peak period with the crossing guards there the crossing guard and the kids are doing PED calls and no matter it will override the timing phasing. ` City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department A' B February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] VO Printed On Recycled Paper V © Page 115 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 Joe DeFrancesco, Public Works Director - I'm not sure if this is within my purview but I would ask you to reconsider. There has been a tremendous amount of work between the City of Orange and the City of Villa Park and Serrano School, my suggestion would be that if the Commission would allow the concept be approved that we allow the professionals, which I believe is the Police Dept. and the Traffic Engineering Division to select the correct sign that is both enforceable and understandable. We realize this is a very small incremental staff, we're not solving the problem by doing this but I think the school district has been patient, we have worked with them trying to figure it out and another month may not seem like a lot but it gets us one month closer to the end of the school and I would ask that we turn it over to the professionals. Chairman Beil - I feel we have been thinking that all along, we shouldn't be dictating the signing, that should be worked out between enforcement and what is legal per the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices. Commissioner Lebeau - I would be ready to sign on to your original motion I'm hesitant to do it. Staff opposed the signage language that was there and we both had concerns about it. I'm not sure whatever is going to happen is going to come back and be any better or whether they are going to adopt what is there. I really don't it's really hard to understand what that sign is trying to communicate to a driver. If the ultimate decision is to put up that sign then I wouldn't vote to approve it. If that is what staff ultimately decided is the best option I wouldn't, I don't want to push this off another month but I don't feel comfortable with what was brought to us the first time and I can't be certain that whatever is ultimately installed at the intersection will be different. Commissioner Glasgow - If we direct staff to come back we're still putting it off for another month, they have to bring the signs back to us in 30 days and tell us this the sign we want to use or do we have them look at another option of doing a right turn only something police can enforce. People understand a RIGHT TURN ONLY, they understand left turn only, and they understand something like that. Denah Hoard, Asst. City Attorney - My only concern is if you change the staff recommendations. Signage you can continue to discuss, differences in traffic patterns. City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department A' February 2013 [N:/rraffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] 0 Printed On Recycled Paper 0 0 Page 116 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 Amir Farahani, City Traffic Engineer — What is presented here is just a concept of what needs to be done, we are not providing any signage and similar signage without the time limit has been in place in several places, I think one of them is LaVeta and Parker for southbound which is only right and left turns. We have the signs but it is full time. We can look in the MUTCD and see if there is any easier signage to follow. Chairman Beil — Based on my experience in dealing with a lot of traffic issues and my profession and to go back to where I was originally leaning, I'm inclined to go along with the Public Works Director's suggestion. I don't want it to be that we are always deciding wording on any special sign on the street that is what I'm worried about. They are going to be monitoring this to see the violation rate, the confusion rate among people turning into that cul -de -sac. It's a lot of words, the sign is very small print to read, the MUTCD may have something that has the international don't symbol across the straight arrow just with the time 7 AM to whatever time limit you have, I see that quite a bit in areas out by schools where you are not allowed to make U -turns around islands in the morning peak period. It's pretty understandable. ACTION: Approved staff recommendation with additional instruction to discuss with Police Traffic Bureau and with anyone else that can give input on determining if it's enforceable, doing the research to find if there is a simpler way to word the sign. MOTION: Beil SECOND: Lebeau AYES: Unanimous City of Tape ACTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department A' B February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] 1 4 Printed On Recycled Paper Page 117 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 4. Request for the installation of red curb markings in front of 310 S. Heatherstone St. Robert Palmer 310 S. Heatherstone St. Orange, Ca. 92869 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion. Resident of 4015 S. Heatherstone St. — Spoke from the audience seating section and did not come to the microphone, so most of her comments are difficult to understand, is in favor of red curb, and would like red curb for her home as well. The on- street parking from outside residents using Heatherstone is awful, you can never find available parking and they leave such a mess. Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for further discussion and a motion. ACTION: Denied the request. MOTION: Lebeau SECOND: Glasgow AYES: Unanimous End of Consideration Items V. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS None this month. City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. rang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department AW En7 February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] W Printed On Recycled Paper 0 Page 118 Minutes of a Regular Meeting — City Traffic Commission February 13, 2013 VI. ADJOURNMENT After discussion of today's Agenda the City Traffic Commission meeting was concluded, and as there were no further requests for action under Oral Presentations, the Chairman adjourned this session of the City Traffic Commission. The next meeting of the City Traffic Commission is scheduled: 5:30 P.M. Wednesday -March 13, 2013 Respectfully submitted, CITY OF ORANGE Phyllis Then, Recording Secretary Traffic Engineering Division then @citvoforanee.or CITY OF ORANGE PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT 300 E. CI IAPMAN AVENUE ORANGE CA 92866 PH: (714) 744 -5536 FAX: (714) 744 -5573 l City of Tape #CTC -33.01 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. grang Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714) 744 -5536 in this regard, advance notice is appreciated. Public Works Department 4W B February 2013 [N:/Traffic /CTC /2012 Minutes] 1 4P Printed On Recycled Paper