HomeMy WebLinkAbout2/17/1982 - Minutes PCPLANNING COMMISSION
MINUTES
City of Orange
Orange, California
February 17, 1982
Wednesday, 7:30 p.m.
The regular meeting of the Orange City Planning Commission was called to order
by Chairman Mickelson at 7:30 p.m.
PRESENT: Commissioners Pickelson, Hart, Coontz, Master, Vasquez
ABSENT: Commissioners none
STAFF Jere P. Murphy, Administrator of Current Planning and Commission
PRESENT: Secretary; Norvin Lanz, Associate Planner; Gene Minshew, Assistant
City Attorney; Gary Johnson, City Engineer; Bill Simpki.n~, Fire
Department; Doris Ofsthun, Recording Secretary.
PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
IN RE: APPROVAL OF MINUTES OF FEBRUARY 1, 1982
Moved by Commissioner Coontz, seconded by Commissioner Hart,
to approve the minutes of February 1, 1982, as transmitted.
C
AYES: Commissioners Hart, Coontz, Master, Vasquez
NOES: Commissioners none
ABSENT: Commissioners none
ABSTAIN: Commissioner Mickelson MOTION CARRIED
IN RE: CONSENT CALENDAR
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT 1078 - GERALD WILLMON:
Planning Commission consideration of setting a revocation hearing
on Conditional Use Permit 1078 approved for property on the north-
east corner of Chapman Avenue and Lester Street (1111 W. Chapman
Avenue) for failure to comply with conditions. (Continued from
the meeting of January 18, 1982 and of February 1, 1982.)
Upon the recommendation of the Staff to receive and file the
February 8, 7982 correspondence from the applicant with regard
to his compliance to the subject conditions, it was moved by
Commissioner Master, seconded by Commissioner Hart, to receive
and file said correspondence.
AYES: Commissioners Mickelson, Hart,. Coontz, Master, Vasquez
NOES: Commissioners none
ABSENT: Commissioners none MOTION CARRIED
Mr. Murphy then proposed the possibility of voting upon the
Lamplighter revised Relocation Assistance Plan under the Consent
Calendar. Commissioner Hart felt that since there seems to have
been confusion with regard to the various plans presented at the
last meeting, that the plan which was finally accepted should be
reviewed in greater detail. Commissioner Vasquez thought that,
under the circumstances, this should not be delayed any further.
It was decided not to treat this matter as a Consent Calendar
item and take it in regular order on the agenda.
Chairman Mickelson pointed out that even though the repurchase
plan was discussed and voted upon during the last meeting, the
rest of the relocation plan was left untouched except fora few
minor details.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Two
IN RE: CONTINUED HEARINGS:
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT 1176 - HUMDINGER BILLIARD HALL:
A request to permit the operation of 10 coin operated amusement
devices occupying over 5 percent of the floor area accessible to
the public in the C-3 (Commercial) district on the southeast corner
of the intersection of Main Street and Columbia Place. (Continued
from the meeting of January 18, 1982 and of February 1, 1982.)
Jere Murphy presented this item to the Commission, explaining that
this had been continued twice and has been the subject of some
discussion with the applicant over the past few months . He ex-
plained that this is a request to permit the operation of 10 coin
operated amusement devices occupying over 5 percent of the floor
area accessible to the public. The property contains about .34
acre of land located on the southeast corner of the intersection
of Main Street and Columbia Place and is zoned C-3 (Commercial
District). Mr. Murphy then pointed out that the applicant has
now been revised to request 14 coin operated devices and, in a
1 otter just received, the applicant has requested that the 6 pool
tables in the establishment be removed from the application. The
original application included these pool tables. However, there is
an issue as to whether these tables are allowed to be removed,
which the Commission must decide upon. There is disagreement be-
tween the Staff and the applicant as to whether these original
pool tables were grandfathered in or not.
Mr. Murphy then explained that the Staff has modified the original
conditions which were called out in the Staff Report and the appli-
cant does not agree entirely to these conditions, as he states in
his letter. He felt that the basic differences are in the matter
of the review of the application in the future by the Police
Department, as well as the requirement for the abandonment of the
street along the north edge of the property. The Staff has already
required the abandonment of the north half of the street as a part
of St. Joseph Hospital's application for zoning on the proposed parking
structure which is to be built to the east and, therefore, feels
that it is appropriate to require similar action by Flumdinger so
that the City ends up with a completely abandoned street frr~m ~fai n
Street to the east. He said that Staff does not wish to see the
present 180 feet unabandoned, to be left as a deadend public street
for that short distance.
Commissioner Hart wondered in abandoning the street if it would go
back to the property itself. Mr, Murphy replied that as Staff under-
stands it, legally the north half of the street would go back to
St.Joseph to their ownershi~~p of the lat':on the north :side=Qf thy.street,
and the south half would ao to the Humdinger ownership.
Commissioner Hart asked if the Humdinger owners were protesting getting
that additional property. ~^r. P~urphy responded that they are pro-
testing that condition as a requirement of the Conditional Use Permit
because of their present discussions with St. Joseph Hospital regarding,
not only the abandonment of the street, but the possible acquisition
by St. Joseph of the Humdinger property, which is a long term question,
which wi 11 probably not be resolved i n the near future.
Per. Murphy expl ai nod that the applicant has i ndi Gated i n the past
that he v~rishes to delay action by the Commission in order to allow
for time to deal with St. Joseph. Hospital prior to Commission action
on the Conditional Use Permit. He again referred to the applicant's
February 8th letter, where he is requesting the withdrawal of the
6 pool tables from the application and the expansion of the number
of electronic games by an additional four machines. Staff is under
the impression that discussions with St. Joseph Hospital may take
some time to complete and that the action by the Planning Commission
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Three
would not i nterfere with those discussions with the hospi tal .
He pointed out that, if necessary, the Staff may have to become
involved more in the abandonment question in order to insure that
whatever physical development takes place on the abandoned street
meets with City needs . They have not been involved i n those di s-
cussions up to the present time. How ever, Staff has had extensive
discussions with St. Joseph Hospi tal with regard to conditions re-
garding the parking structure, access, traffic circulation, and
the issues of abandonment of streets i n the general area, both to
the north and to the east of the subject property.
Staff recommends approval of the application for the 14 machines
on the property, with the 15 conditions as listed i n the original
staff report, as modified in the addendum staff report.
Commissioner Coontz wondered if the abandonment procedure would
take place separately. Mr. Murphy replied in the affirmative,
explaining that there would still have to be a public hearing for
the abandonment of the streets. The Staff wishes to encourage the
elimination of that short stub street now that the balance has been
abandoned for the parking structure. He pointed out that the
hearings for the longer section of the street have already been held
and that has been approved. What is remaining is approximately 180
feet immediately to the east of Main Street which has not been acted
upon. Basically, the applicant does not think that area shoul d be
handled under this Conditional Use Permit.
Mr. Minshew explained that the rest of Columbia Place, the public
hearing has been held, the City Council has approved it and the
City Clerk has been instructed to hold the matter until notification
from the Director of Publi c Works unti 1 al l conditions are met.
Therefore, that abandonment has not yet been recorded.
Mr. Murphy further explained that the Staff is still working with
St. Joseph Hospital with regard to parking in the basic hospital
complex so there are still several conditions that the St. Joseph
Hospital must meet. Staff is asking them to do substantial things
i n terms of providing parking i nformati on to indicate that there i s
ampl e parking, both for the present faci 1 i ty and for possible future
buildings to be erected in the St. Joseph Hospital complex. There
is an ongoing .program in dealing with both St. Joseph and CHOC.
Chairman Mickelson did not see a need for the abandonment of the
rest of Columbia Place. Mr. Murphy explained that leaving the
street as is is a second alternative. However, people might think
this street leads to a public place and for some time there would
probably be public traffic on the street. Staff .would like to avoid
this. He pointed out that the street is only about 200 feet in
depth .
Chairman Mickelson opened the public hearing.
Tom Prenovost, representing the applicant, 2082 Mickelson Drive,
Ste. 100, Irvine, addressed the Commission in favor of this applica-
tion. H e explained the reasons for the two continuances on this
application. He pointed out that the applicant is in agreement
with the Staff i n that they are seeking approval , but the pool
tables have been in since 1969 and are not electronically operated.
They are coin operated. In 1959 a vending machine ordinance was
passed which was revised in 1978 wherein a vending machine was
defined. The only requirement then was that you have a business
license. Mr. Prenovost explained that they are prepared to pay the
business license for 1979, 1980 and 1981 which, as he understands it,
would bring them i n compl iance with the ordinance. He di d not see
where a Conditional Use Permit is required for these pool tables .
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Four
With regard to the abandonment issue, Mr. Prenovost gave some
background in this respect, explaining that the owner is in
negotiation at this time with St. Joseph Hospital. At the time
he began his negotiations he was told that the four coin operated
machines in his hall were not in conformance and he needed a
Conditional Use Permit. The owner is very concerned about the
city being involved in the negotiations with St. Joseph Hospital.
They also do not feel there is a need to discuss the pool tables
at the meeting tonight.
Regarding abandonment, they read the Conditional Use Permit as
being passed on whether or not the abandonment proceedings go
through. He does not feel that it is the intention of the city
to give St. Joseph Hospital a club to hold over the applicant's
head. Therefore, he would ask that Condition #2 be deleted.
Regarding Condition #6, which says: "that this Conditional Use
Permit, if granted, shall be reviewed periodically by the Police
Department to assure no increase in police services are required
by the approval of this Conditional Use Permit." He understands the
Police Department's concern regarding increased gambling, fights,
truancy, etc. However, this again gives the powers that be a club
to hold over the applicant's head and perhaps take away his
livelihood. They would be willing to have the permit reviewed
once a year.
Commissioner Coontz asked if Mr. Prenovost were in opposition to
the wording regarding including 14 video games. He replied that
if the pool tables were not included, he is in agreement with this
wording. He would be satisfied with the existing six games and
adding another eight if adding 14 additional games would make them
an arcade.
There being no one else to speak for or against this application,
the Chairman closed the public hearing.
Chairman Mickelson asked Mr. Minshew if the Commission were to
accept. the argument that the 6 pool tables were approved in 1969
by CUP and can therefore continue, is the new ordinance clear that
these six tables would be counted in the maximum number when
deciding whether they are an arcade.
Mr. Minshew replied that the applicant is planning them to be there
by a legal right. If this were a non-conforming use they would have
to insist on counting them. He did not think the ordinance is that
clear on this point. He also pointed out that the ordinance does
not talk about electronic, but coin operated. These pool tables
are coin operated. The ordinance did not require that they be
coin operated but it had to be defined and it was the concern of
the city that they know where these devices were.
Chairman Mickelson then asked a question. with regard to the request
to expand the application from ten coin operated amusement devices
up to fourteen, asking if the city's legal advertisement is so
specific that they would be i n troubl e by adding to the number of
units over what was advertised for the permit application. Mr.
Mi nshew did not think there woul d be a problem here.
Commissioner Hart agreed that the six pool tables approved of in
1969 were legally approved. He did not think it made a lot of
difference then that they were coin operated. He felt that the
applicant is entitled to grandfather these six pool tables in.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Five
Mr. Minshew spoke to the 1978 amended ordinance, stating that
there was a permi t needed at that time and i t has never been met.
The ci ty does not agree with the applicant's observations i n this
area.
Chairman Mickelson asked if the Commission opted for his second
request to approve a total of 14 devices, would this not be made
i n conformance with the ordi Hance.
Mr. Prenovost stated that he specifically requested that the Com-
mission not approve the Conditional Use Permit of the original
six tables . He would accept a Condi ti onal Use Permit for eight
additional tables .
Commissioner Coontz pointed out that the Commission does not make
1 egal decisions and felt that they should vote on a total of 14.
Commissioner Hart was uncomfortable with the remarks made by Mr.
Prenovost regarding abandonment and felt that this was not clear.
Chairman Mickelson replied that he was i n agreement wi th Com-
missioner Hart's remarks, feeling that it was not the Staff's
intent to provide St. Joseph Hospital with a club to hold over
the applicant's head, but he could see something like this be-
coming areality and thought that was a legitimate argument. He
thought that the abandonment question would be more properly handled
at an abandonment hearing. The other commissioners agreed with this
statement.
Mr. Minshew suggested some kind of statement to the effect that
in the event that Columbia Place is abandoned the applicant shall
provi de a second access which would be satisfactory to the Di rector
of Public Works. Their concern is that therewould not he two separate
access roads, one by St. Joseph Hospital over their property and
one by Humdi nger over their property .
Mr. Prenovost felt that it is the applicant's concern, not his, but
to the applicant, i t i s a very real concern. As he understands i t,
the city would not abandon unless an agreement had been reached for
access between the hospi tal and the Humdi nger. The economic reality
is that if the city abandons and will require that this look like
a private driveway rather than a public street, there will have to
be a narrowing of the road, replacement of curb and gutter, all of
which will be very expensive. St. Joseph Hospital will use 95% of
this driveway and Humdinger will use 5%. There is also a possibility
that the Humdinger will be torn out and some kind of medical complex
be bui 1 t i n its place. H e would not 1 i ke to see any mention of thi s
and he again requested that Condition #2 be struck. He felt that
something will be worked out between St. .Joseph and Humdinger.
Commissioner Coontz asked i f Condition #6 was a standard condi ti on
for coin operated devices and was told that it was. She commented
that this ordinance was not an easy one to make decisions on and
she did not think the Commission should back down on the condition.
There was discussion among the Commissioners regarding this condition.
Commissioner Hart felt that he would like to see this placed on an
annual basis. Commissioner Vasquez stated that he believed that this
condition is an appropriate one. He felt that if the Commission
deviates from their standard it sets a bad precedent. This kind of
control is needed.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Six
L~
Moved by Commissioner Coontz, seconded by Commissioner Vasquez,
to approve Conditional Use Permit 1176 to permit operation of
up to 14 coin operated amusement devices, occupying over 5% of
the floor area accessible to the public; subject to Condition #1,
delete Condition #2, Condition #3 to remain unchanged, Condition
#4 to be revised to read:
"That exit door on the northeast side of the building
is to be kept closed and locked and only used for
emergency exiting. This door is to be equipped with
an audible alarm that would sound if anyone enters or
exits. The door is to have a deadbolt/panic hardware
locking device approved by the Police and Fire
Departments."
Condition #5 to be revised to read:
"That a revised floor plan be submitted to the Planning
and Development Services Department depicting the loca-
tion of all coin operated amusement devices up to 14
units as authorized by Conditional Use Permit 1176."
and that Conditions #6 through #15 remain unchanged.
Mr. Prenovos t protested the 14 number, explaining hi s reasons ,
and saying that if this motion passes, the Commission has not
accepted hi s argument that the 6 pool tables have been grand-
fathered in. He also protested the conditioning allowing the
police department to review the property periodically. Com-
mi ssi over Coontz did not agree with Mr. Prenovos is arguments .
Mr. Prenovost stated for the record that they would withdraw the
6 amusement devices from the permit application.
Chairman Mickelson agreed with the logic presented by the applicant
that by taking action on thi s motion, i t 1 eaves him open to revo-
cation by a police review which has been established by this use
permit and not under the previous one.
AYES: Commissioners Coontz, Master, Vasquez
NOES: Commissioners Mickelson, Hart
ABSENT: Commissioners none MOTION CARRIED
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT 1154, VARIANCE 1660, TENTATIVE TRACT
11646 - ORANGE CITY GROUP:
A request to allow construction of a 77 unit, condominium planned
unit development i n the RD-6 district and to deviate from th e
maximum allowable density and coverage development standards on a
parcel located on the south side of Almond Avenue, beginning at a
point approximately 159± feet east of the centerline of Maplewood
Street. ( Continued from meeting of February 1, 1982.)
(Note: Negative Declaration 734 has been prepared in lieu of an
Environmental Impact Report.)
Mr. Murphy presented thi s i tem to the Commission, stati ng that
this application had been reviewed at the February 1, 1982
Planning Commission meeting. It was continued to the February 17,
1982 meeting to give the applicant and the staff an opportunity
to respond to four concerns:
a. That the project density with 17 units was too high
for the neighborhood.
b. That 14 dwellings on the site might be more acceptable
with 4 units affordabl e which would also meet the
minimum requirements for affordable projects under
State law.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Seven
c. That the applicant should evaluate the effect of
interest rates and homeowner fees on the monthly
payments to insure the units sales prices remai n wi thi n
the affordabl e category.
d. That the staff work with the applicant to formulate an
acceptable administrative procedure to qualify buyers
and handle resale controls; all prior to review by the
Planning Commission.
C~
Mr. Murphy explained that on February 4, 1982 the applicant and
his representative met with Staff to discuss what the applicant
wished to do in response to the comments made by the Planning
Commission on February 1 , 1982. Subsequent to this discussion,
the applicant's representati ve contacted Staff and restated that
the applicant desired to continue with the 17 unit project, as
previously designed and submitted. The representative expressed
that the applicant had some philosophical problems with Staff's
position on the use of the County Housing Authority screening and
resale programs. He feels that these programs are costly to the
taxpayers and should not be the role of Government. However, he
would be wi 11 i ng to accept the Housing Authority 's program for
administration of the affordable units if non-acceptance of this
program becomes an impediment to approval.
Mr. Murphy commented that except for the statements made this
eveni ng, the Staff position is the same as contained i n the
original Staff Report, since the project has not been modified.
He said that if the Commission were to find the application
acceptable, they would suggest removing Conditions #3,.8, 9 £y.1.0, and
i n thei r place, the developer shoul d employ the Housi nq Authori ty
to administrate the affordable units.
Commissioner Coontz pointed out that their reasons for continuing
this item were not just questions of density, but also affordability,
sale price, interest rate and down payment, etc. None of these
questions which were raised were addressed since the last meeting.
She wondered if this were correct.
Mr. Murphy replied that the only answer they received from the
applicant was the reluctant agreement to accept the Housing
Authority if the project might be approved. The Staff has reviewed
the matter of the price of the units and their findings are that
the price as indicated is basically in the right area as far as
the 120% of median income is concerned, The monthly payments to
the Homeowners' Association is almost negligible and, therefore,
would not affect the total price of the unit. The Staff did not
attempt to address the subject of a down payment on these units.
The interest rate falls into line with the price of the unit at
$80,000.
Chairman Mickelson opened the public hearing.
Floyd Belsito, 5382 Beck Circle, Huntington Beach, representing the
applicant, Ron Davis, addressed the Commission in favor of this
application. He explained that he and Mr. Davis had met with the
Staff and the issues were discussed at that time. The applicant
acquiesed to having the Housing Authority administrate these
affordable units. However, he felt that this was one more govern-
ment control. The reason for proposing the six units over and above
the units permitted by code was based on the economy to scale by
being able to bring in the materials necessary at a lower cost, to
be able to construct all of the units, including the affordable
ones . He fel t that any thing less than the 17 proposed units woul d
be impractical costwise, particularly with ]4 units 10 would be of
a standard nature and only 4 would be affordable.
Commissioner Hart asked what the square footage would be for the
affordable units and Mr. Murphy replied that it was his understanding
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Eight
that all of the units would be 1200 square feet. Mr. Belsito
was inclined to agree with this figure. He explained that the
affordable units would have less of the amenities, i.e. no
carpeting, no fireplaces, etc.
Flo Kinder, 1642 E. Hickory Lane, Orange, addressed the Commission
in opposition to this application, stating that she is not really
opposed to the project, but she opposes 17 units. She asked that
the Commission look at the emergency access to this project, par-
ticularly the access to East Washington Street. She then read
a statement to the Commission, asking them to look carefully at
the magnitude of such a project as this in the type of area such
as E. Washington Street. She realized that it is the right of
the owner to make a profit on his piece of property, but not at
the expense of those surrounding that property. She pointed out
that with the access set the way it is in these plans, it wi]1
destroy proper access to the duplexes which she and her husband
own nearby. She felt that profit shoul d not be made by one at
the expense of someone else. She felt that E. Washington should
be cut through without restrictions or remain as it is without
access .
James Orr, 1018 E. Washington, Orange, addressed the Commission,
asking how many units would be allowed on this amount of ground
under the present zoni ng and was told that 11 units would be
allowed. He pointed out that, in view of the fact that there is
no parking on Alaple, Almond and Washington, if 17 units are placed
on this lot the parking situation would be quite intolerable. This
would also bring quite a few children into the area with no place
provided for them to play, other than the street. He did not see
how one person can come in and try to change all of the rules.
There being no one else to speak for or against this application,
the Chairman closed the public hearing.
Commissioner Master pointed out that the question of an emergency
access had come up at the last meeting and that comments had been
made by Chairman Mickelson and himself to the effect that those
concerned about this access could look at the emergency access at
the end of Culver, which is a cul de sac. He felt that the treat-
ment there is similar to what is proposed on E. Washington.
Ch airman Mickelson pointed out that a wal l 16 feet i n width coal d
be needed here and if that it so, it could eliminate possibly two
on street parking spaces in an already crowded situation. He
asked Mr. Johnson a question regarding the claim by the church that
the property did not go to the center line of Washington Street.
He did not know if that had ever been verified. Mr. Johnson thought
that it did go to the centerline. However, a survey will have to
be done before the final map is drawn up.
Commissioner Hart was concerned about the hardship that would be
necessary to show approval of the variance. Commissioner Coontz
thought that the variance is there because of the affordable housing
density bonus being a part of this application.
Chairman Mickelson asked Mr. P~urphy if the zone change is still
pending before the City Counci 1 and he replied that part of the
action of the Council should be to address the zone change. There
was further discussion between Chairman Mickelson and Mr. Murphy
in this regard and Chairman Mickelson commented that he was dis-
appointed that there is not more information tonight. He could
favor a higher density and move- forward with thi s type of program
but we need more facts.
Commissioner Coontz felt that things have not changed since this
application was turned down and sent to the Counci 1 . She felt that
the density is too high.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Ni ne
1
Moved by Commissioner Plaster, seconded by Commissioner Vasquez,
to accept the findings of the Environmental Review Board to
file Negative Declaration 734.
AYES: Commissioners Mickelson, Hart, Coontz, Master, Vasquez
NOES: Commissioners none
ABSENT: Commissioners none MOTION CARRIED
Moved by Commissioner Master, seconded by Commissioner Vasquez,
to recommend denial of Conditional Use Permit 1154, Variance
1660 and Tentative Tract 11646 for reasons as stated by Staff.
AYES: Commissioners Hart, Coontz, Master, Vasquez
NOES: Commissioner Mickelson
ABSENT: Commissioners none MOTION CARRIED
IN RE: NEW FIEARINGS:
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT 1186 -CALIFORNIA COMMERCIAL SERVICES, INC.
A request to permit operation of a sandwich shop that serves
beer and wi ne i n a n exi s ti ng industrial park complex i n the M-2
(Industrial) district at a site located on the south side of
Katella Avenue approximately 580± feet west of the centerline of
Glassell Street (525 West Katella Avenue). (.Note: Negative Declara-
tion #749 has been prepared in lieu of an Environmental Impact Report.)
It was the consensus of the Commissioners to dispense wi th the
Staff Report.
Chairman Mickelson opened the public hearing.
Russell Hildebrand, representing California Commercial Services,
Inc., addressed the Commission in favor of this application.
~~
He spoke to Condition #8, reading: That a 6-foot view obscuring
trash enclosure of anon-combustible material be provided along
the uni is southern perimeter; or, such other trash enclosure as
approved by the Sanitation Inspector of the Department of Public
Works.", stating that they realize they must do this. However,
the location is on the south perimeter wall, which is adjoining
access for other businesses. Beyond their building is a trash
area and i t woul d be much better i f they could bui 1 d an enclosure
i n that area.
Chairman Mickelson explained that this is a standard condition and
this could be worked out with the Staff.
There being no one else to speak for or against this application,
the Chairman closed the public hearing.
Chairman Mickelson questioned Condition #9, reading: "That
fi refi gh ti ng faci 1 i ti es be provided as approved by the Fire Depart-
ment, i ncl udi ng the fol 1 owi ng special requi rements
1. That there be necessary occupancy separations
between units on ei ther side of subject unit per
Fire and Building Department regulations.
2. That subject unit is required to meet all public
assembly requirements per State Fire Marshal
regulations ."
asking why this is necessary. Mr. Murphy responded that the
occupancy of a building changes when it goes from an industrial-
use to a restaurant use. This condition puts the applicant on
notice that he must take care of the occupancy separations .
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Ten
Chairman Mickelson then questioned Condition #11, reading:
"That CC&R's, if applicable to Orange-Ka tella Industrial Park,
shal l be reviewed and approved by the City Attorney. " Mr. Lanz
explained that this being an Indus trial Park, i t shares parking
with numerous other businesses. The city wishes to insure that
they have agreed to this parking arrangement. Their understanding
is that the owner of the park has allocated 20 parking spaces to
this use.
Moved by Commissioner Hart, seconded by Commissioner Coontz, to
accept the findings of the Environmental Review Board to file
Negative Declaration #749.
AYES: Commissioners Mickelson, Hart, Coontz, Master, Vasquez
NOES: Commissioners none
ABSENT: Commissioners none MOTION CARRIED
Moved by Commissioner Vasquez, seconded by Commissioner Master,
to approve Conditional Use Permit 1186, for the reasons as out-
lined in the Staff Report and subject to the 4 special conditions
and 13 standard condi tions set forth i n the Staff Report.
AYES: Commissioners Mickelson, Hart, Coontz, Master, Vasquez
NOES: Commissioners none
ABSENT: Commissioners none MOTION CARRIED
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT 1188 - DAVID E. MILLER, AIA ARCHITECT:
A request to allow construction of a 2,163 square foot, pre-school
classroom addition and a future 742 seat sanctuary to relocate from
the existing sanctuary in the R-1-7 (Single Family Residence,
7,000 square foot minimum l of size) district on a parcel l ocated
on the south side of Taft Avenue approximately 140± feet west of
the centerline of Nordic Drive. (Note: Negative Declaration 752
has been filed in lieu of an Environmental Impact Report.)
It was the consensus of the Commissioners to dispense with the .Staff
presentation.
Chairman Mickelson opened the public hearing.
David Miller, architect, 796 N. Shattuck, Orange, addressed the
Commission in favor of this application, stating that they agree
with all conditions set forth in the Staff Report. He also wanted
the Commission to know that Fred Buss had been very helpful to them
in preparing their application.
There being no one else to speak for or against this application,
the Chairman closed the public hearing.
Moved by Commissioner Master, seconded by Commissioner Vasquez,
to accept the findings of the Environmental Review Board to file
Negative Declaration #752.
AYES: Commissioners Mickelson, Hart, Coontz, Master, Vasquez
NOES: Commissioners none
ABSENT: Commissioners none MOTION CARRIED
Moved by Commissioner Master, seconded by Commissioner Coontz, to
approve Conditional Use Permit 1188 for the reasons as stated by
Staff and subject to the conditions as outlined in the Staff Report.
AYES: Commissioners Mickelson, Hart, Coontz, Master, Vasquez
NOES:
, Commissioners none
,~
ABSENT: Commissioners none MOTION CARRIED
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Eleven
IN RE: MISCELLANEOUS:
REVIEW OF LAMPLIGHTER RELOCATION ASSISTANCE PLAN FOR PURPOSE
OF CONFIRMING APPROVAL ACTION TAKEN ON FEBRUARY 8, 1982.
Mr. Murphy presented this item to the Commission, explaining
that this is a confirmation of the action taken on February
8, 1982. He pointed out that at the continued public hearing
on February fi, 1982, the Planning Commission acted to approve
a Tenant Relocation Assistance Plan for the Lamplighter Mobile
Home Park. Because the additional materials submitted for this
particular meeting related primarily to the repurchase option
as outlined in the overall plan, the Commission instructed the
applicant to consolidate the approved repurchase option (Alternative
#2) with the balance of the Relocation Plan, and resubmit the en-
tire document to the Commission for final review this evening.
Mr. Murphy explained that the Staff has received and reviewed the
final document. It appears that the contents conform with the
Commission's action taken on February 8th. It is, therefore,
recommended that the Commission agree that the Plan as submitted
is consistent with their February 8, 1982 approval .
Mr. Murphy pointed out that after taking this action, it is now
appropriate to move forward with hearing the Lamplighter General
P1 an Land Use E1 ement Amendment item that was with drawn from the
third amendment package of 1981 and carried over to the first
amendment package of 1982. The complete package will consist of
the Lamplighter property, the Fletcher Avenue area, and an area
on the northwest corner of Chapman Avenue and Manchester Street.
Staff suggests that the Commission set March 15th as the public
hearing date for General Plan Land Use Element Amendment 1-82.
Chairman Mickelson then explained to the audience that this is not
a public hearing. It is a review of the action which was taken at
the meeting of February 8th .
John Nicks addressed the Commission, stating that he thought that
there was a statement that if the moving costs exceed $2,000 for
single wide or $3,000 for double wide coaches that the owner
guaranteed that it would not exceed that amount. He wondered if
thi s statement should be i n the agreement. He said that he sti 11
objects to the final date. He was also concerned about how a
tenant would go about selling his coach to the applicant if they
want to move out immediately. H e did not believe any money would
be forthcoming until the General Plan is approved. He also wondered
if a tenant were to move from the park and leave their coach until
such time as the applicant would purchase it, if that tenant would
have to pay rent.
Mr. Minshew responded, pointing out in Plan B, #4, it states that
if you sell your mobile home to the applicant, the sum of $3,000
of your relocation allowance will be paid as soon as the mobile
home and other property are removed from the park. The remaining
$1 , 700 wi 11 be pai d wi th i n 15 days of adopti on of the Orange City
Council of a resolution giving final approval to the General Plan
Land Use Element Amendment which redesignates the Lamplighter as
"Major Commercial". He thought that the $3,000 would be paid as
soon as the tenant moved out. However, Mr. Nicks disagreed, inter-
preting this statement to mean that the $3,000 would not be paid
until the mobile home was actually purchased by the applicant.
v
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Twelve
Brent Swanson, representing the applicant, Mr. Kennedy, stated
that it is true that prior to approval of the General Plan
Amendment, the tenants will not receive the additional $1700.
However, the $3,000 will be paid when the tenant moves out.
With regard to the purchase of the coach , that would go i nto
effect after the approval of the General Plan Amendment.
Chairman Mickelson asked if they could opt to move now, take the
$3,000, leave the coach on site and not pay rent. Mr. Swanson
replied that they would have to pay rent if the coach stays.
Commissioner Master asked if there had been any dialogue between
the applicant and the tenants regarding an explanation of the
plan. Mr. Kennedy has spoken individually with about 15 people,
but there has been no formal meeting. It was Mr. Swanson's under-
standing from Mr. Jantz that the people did understand the plan.
He further explained that Mr. Kennedy had the 14% depreciation
on each coach run through a computer and had discussed prices with
some of the tenants.
Commissioner Coontz pointed out that the Commission has before it
either affirmation or denail of the package reviewed the previous
week. She did not think the questions being asked were relevant.
She felt that we should not drag out the long session which was
had at the previous meetings. We must get back on track as to
what i s to be done.
Commissioner Vasquez understood Commissioner Coontz' concerns.
However, in view of the relocation concerns of the tenants, he
was concerned still that communication still seems to be a problem.
Mr. Swanson explained why he had been contacted regarding getting
in touch with Mr. Kennedy.
Chairman Mickelson then explained that the Staff is recommending
that the General Plan hearing be set for March 15, 1982. Mr.
Swanson explained that his wife is expecting a baby on that date,
however, he did not wish a continuance. Mr. Murphy pointed out
that this is a regular meeting date and there are three other minor
hearings scheduled for that same night.
Moved by Commissioner Hart, seconded by Commissioner Coontz, to
set March 15, 1982 for the General Plan hearing on this item.
AYES: Commissioners Mickelson, Coontz, Master, Vasquez
NOES: Commissioners none
ABSENT: Commissioners none MOTION CARRIED
Chairman Mickelson asked what should be done about Mr. Yamasaki's
memo regarding the Housing Consultant's Fourth Phase report.
Mr. Murphy responded that the Commissioners should make individual
comments with regard to the report.
Chairman Mickelson commented that this is a pretty good shopping
list, but he would hope that the consultant would be able to give
them a more detailed explanation of each of those opportunities,
because he felt that the big problem has been that in the past they
have often rejected an option because no one has done an objective
job in setting forth the benefits and lack of benefits for that
particular option. He hoped that the consultant could make an
objective evaluation of such things as bias reports and elaborate
on them so that the Commission could truly understand them.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Thirteen
Commissioner Coontz felt that most of the things mentioned are
familiar, but she agreed with Chairman Mickelson that there
could be further explanation.
Chairman Mickelson then explained that further comments by the
Commissioners could be given to the Staff tomorrow.
Mr, Swanson read the last page of Plan "B", inserting the changes
that should be made in that paragraph. Line 6, strike the words,
"...up to a total of an additional $1,.000. If we do so, however,
then the additional payment will be deducted from the $2,700 pay-
ment referred to later in this paragraph." Add: "...as long as
we are given the opportunity to pick the moving company."
Line 13, strike: "The extra $600.00 would then be deducted from
the $2,700.00 payment which is to be made when the General Plan
Amendment is approved.) Line 15, insert: "You will also be paid...
(insert) in the case of a mobile home that is not 20' wide...
Balance of sentence would remain the same. At the end of the
paragraph, add: "In the case of a mobile home 20' wide or wider,
a payment of $1,700 will also be made under the same conditions."
Chairman Mickelson noted that two letters, one from Mr. Jantz and
one from Mrs, Cays, plus an anonymous clipping from a newspaper,
have been received after the public hearing and will be made part
of the public ercord.
Moved by Commissioner Vasquez, seconded by Commissioner Coontz, for
affirmation of the revised relocation plan of February 8, 1982,
with appropriate amendments and deletions as made by Mr. Swanson.
AYES: Commissioners Mickelson, Hart, Coontz, Vasquez
NOES: Commissioner Master
ABSENT: Commissioners none MOTION CARRIED
Commissioner Coontz felt that it should go without saying that
the plan should be disbursed with exceptions and that every effort
should be made to explain the plan to the residents.
Mr. Swanson explained that the changes will be made and the final
plan will go out to all tenants.
Commissioner Master explained that his "no" vote was not a reflection
of whether it is fair or not fair, He thought that the tenants did
not understand the plan and was not sure that the Planning Commission
understands it.
REVIEW OF REVISED PLANS FOR TENTATIVE TRACT 9608 - RICHARD K. BROOKS, JR.
Mr. Murphy presented this item to the Planning Commission, explaining
that the Planning Commission approved Tentative Tract 9608, with
revisions, on December 7, 1981, along with a zone change and a
conditional use permit. On January 12, 1982 the Council held a
public hearing and continued the item to February 9th for the Staff
to prepare a synopsis of that public hearing. The applicant was
encouraged to submit a compromise plan. At the February 9th City
Council meeting, the Council continued the matter to February 23rd,
which is next Tuesday, this continuance being at the request of
the applicant.
Mr. Murphy explained that revisions to the plan primarily involve
the north end of the project, which he pointed out on the map in
front of the Commission. The original plan approved by the Planning
Commission basically showed duplex development along the northeast
side, with an undeveloped area separating the project to the east
and eliminating any access from the property to the east.
Mr. Murphy said that the proposal basically does not change the
Staff's original concerns regarding the project.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Fourteen
The City Council has asked for the Commission's review of the
changes in the plan and comments regarding same to come back
before the Council meeting on February 23rd.
Commissioner Vasquez asked what the final disposition was on the
question of a right-of-way for the emergency access. Mr. Murphy
responded. Applicant has a right-of-way across the property to
the east, which was established some time ago.
Richard Brooks, 17500 Red Hill, Irvine, addressed the Commission,
explaining that the item had been heard by the Council on January
12th and because of the size and scope of the project, Council
had extended for 30 days. During that time he met with several
of the Councilmen and three representatives of the Orange Park
Acres Committee and reviewed the plan which had been unanimously
approved. In order to make an effort to resolve the concerns of
the Orange Park Acres residents, they modified the project,
primarily on the north end. He pointed out that the Tentative
Tract Map, as reviewed by the Commission, illustrates the double
cu l: de sac and access. They have planned to basically leave the
natural hill with a continuous bank and berm, with a landscape
screen hiding the cluster behind i t. He explained that they can
provide emergency access if it is needed.
Mr. Brooks then pointed out on an enlarged map how all of the hills
in front of the project will remain intact. He also pointed out
another drawing which illustrated a very nominal cut and their
development on the other side. He explained another drawing to the
Commission, pointing out the differences between their original
plan and the alternate plan, showing that if they would drop the
cut down to 770 feet all dwellings would drop out of sight from
Orange Park Acres. He said that they have done their very best to
hide the questionable area from Orange Park Acres.
Chairman Mickelson asked if the City were to decide an emergency
access would be necessary, how much grading would be necessary on the
Orange Park Acres side of the hill. Mr. Brooks replied that there
would be very little. It would be quite insignificant.
Commissioner Coontz wondered if the Commission was expected to make
comments on al l options presented. Mr. Brooks felt that comments
shoul d be made.
Mr. Brooks commented that he was affected by the fact that the
Commission had reacted with sensitivity to the difficulties of this
site and he wished more people could see it that way. He felt that
his plan showed great sensitivity to the privacy of surrounding
areas.
Richard Siebert, 1388 N. Kennymead, Orange, representing the Orange
Park Association, addressed the Commission in opposition to this
plan. He addressed the meeting which was had with Mr. Brooks, two
Councilmen and three members of the Association, stating that they
had asked Mr. Brooks if he could alter the hill at the top of the
project. Mr. Brooks stated that he could do nothing. Later, how-
ever, he thought about what he could do to change this hill and
he then approached Mr. Siebert with his new plan. He admitted that
this new plan visually hides the structures from Orange Park Acres
from certain lines of sight. Mr. Siebert explained that he then
went back and presented this new plan to the Association. The
Association's position is that this is a visual problem and they
feel that this is a violation of the East Orange Plan. It is their
contention that visually it is more pleasant but it still violates
~ the Plan and there is still cutting of the hills.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Fifteen
Mr. Siebert explained that Mr. Brooks purchased this property,
knowi ng the plan that i s on i t. He knew of al 1 of the problems
involved with this land. The bottom line is that he cannot develop
the property according to the East Orange Plan and make it work.
The Association feels that years ago there was a plan drawn up.
Several hills have been developed and knocked out since that plan
was developed. Al l of the developments that came i n sai d that
these hills would be saved and they have been told again and again
that these hills would be kept as is. He pointed out some of the
projects which were put through and the people were told that the
density would not be increased in this area.
Lastly, Mr. Si ebert stated that even though Mr. Brooks has altered
the plan and has made some visual corrections, it still violates
the East Orange Plan to too much of a degree. What he is promoting
is more than what was planned for that area.
Chairman Mickelson commented with regard to the statement about
high spots where the development can be seen, stating that he did
not agree with this statement and explaining why he did not agree.
Mr. Siebert agreed that 99% of the project will be hidden. However,
there are some areas which will be seen. Chairman Mickelson felt
that it is important to note that he was on Staff when the Orange
Park Plan was set up and he did not agree with some of the state-
ments made in that regard. There is real disagreement as to what
constituted the open space. He had envisioned it quite differently
than what the City Council finally agreed upon. There is always
that disagreement in interpretation as a general plan goes forward
to a specific plan.
Commissioner Coontz felt that Mr. Brooks has been most cooperative
in this whole matter and has tried hard to please everyone concerned.
Edward Cunningham, 10911 Meads, Orange, addressed the Commission,
speaking with regard to the emergency access which Mr. Brooks states
that he has on the north end of the property. He explained that
his property borders on the emergency access and comes up off the
Meads Loop. The owner of 2/3 of that access guaranteed easement to
seven lots for emergency vehicles. He did not think you can grant
an easement over an easement. He did not think there is emergency
access through Mr. Brooks' property down to the Meads Loop.
He also commented with regard to the project, pointing out that if
the project is passed as it is now by the Planning Commission and then
by the City Council and Mr. Brooks sells part of his land off for
another project, someone else can come in and ask for more density.
It is not the visual impact of the project that is in question, but
that the hills are not supposed to have been developed.
Chairman Mickelson spoke to the comment regarding easement, feeling
that if a fire truck is fighting a fire, they will drive where they
must drive.
Mr. Brooks commented that Mr. Eberly is aware that the emergency
access exists. Commissioner Coontz commented that the people forgot
that the basic purpose for the emergency access is for health.
and safety purposes. Mr. Minshew commented that there is a refer-
ence to access right dedication, which he read to the Commission.
If the City has an easement coming in from the Crowther side, he
does not see a problem with Mr. Brooks giving one from the other side.
Mr. Brooks said that as far as the record is concerned, they do
~ have an easement.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 17, 1982
Page Sixteen
There being no one else to speak for or against this plan, the
Chairman closed the informal public hearing.
Chairman Mickelson pointed out that the Council has asked the
Commission to review the revised plans and comment on them. His
opinion was that this is an improvement over the original plan.
However, it does not seem to be fully acceptable to Orange Park
Acres. He would favor the option on the south end that leaves
the natural daylight line and keep the skyline and ridgeline as
near original as it is practical to do.
\~
Moved by Chairman Mickelson, seconded by Commissioner Coontz, to
respond to the City Council by stating that they feel that changes
to the north end of the project are an improvement, inasmuch as
they retain much of the original skyline and ridgeline, reducing
the cut on top of the hill and hiding the development down on the
westerly side of the hill; and that the Commission would favor the
option on the southern end where the daylight line of the cut retains
the highest elevation to come as close to approximating the natural
ridgeline as possible.
Commissioner Master asked Chairman Mickelson to entertain an
addition to the motion regarding the desirability of an emergency
access, which Chairman Mickelson accepted. He then explained that
he felt that they need to review their hillside standards for length
of cul de sac and talk about the loading on the street compared to
the length, as opposed to just an arbitrary length.
Commissioner Coontz asked for an addition to the motion, stating
a reaffirmation of the Commission's original position, which Chair-
man Mickelson also agreed to.
Chairman Mickelson then asked Mr. Johnson how strongly the Staff
feels about providing emergency access on the end of that now
revised trail at the north end. Mr. Johnson responded that he
thought the Fire Department could speak better to this subject.
Bill Simkins, of the Fire Department, stated that they would
rather have an emergency access, pointing out that what we have is
an isolated situation which must be served. If those units are cut
off, the Fire Department must have a second access. They would
recommend the option of a second access.
Commissioner Master asked that the motion be amended to encourage
the development of the emergency access. This was accepted.
AYES: Commissioners
NOES: Commissioners
ABSENT: Commissioners
Mickelson, Coontz, Hart, Master, Vasquez
none
none
MOTION CARRIED
IN RE: ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at 10:45 p.m., to be reconvened to a
regular meeting on Monday, March 1, 1982, at 7:30 p.m., at the
Civic Center Council Chambers, 300 East Chapman Avenue,
Orange, California.
J
~.
EXCERPT FROM THE MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING OF THE ORANGE CITY
PLANNING COMMISSION HELD ON FEBRUARY 17, 1982.
The regular meeting of the Orange City Planning Commission was called
to order by Chairman Mickelson at 7:30 p,m,
PRESENT: Commissioners Mickelson, Hart, Coontz, Master, Vasquez
ABSENT: Commissioners none
Moved by Commissioner Vasquez, seconded by Commissioner Coontz, that this
meeting adjourn at 10:45 p,m, on Wednesday, February 17, 1982, to recon-
vene at 7:30 p,m. Monday, March 1, 1982 at the Civic Center Council
Chambers, 300 East Chapman Avenue, Orange, California.
I, Jere P, Murphy, Secretary to the Orange Planning Commission, Orange,
California, do hereby certify that the foregoing is a true, full and
~"" correct copy of that portion of the minutes of a regular meeting of the
Planning Commission held on Wednesday, February 17, 1982.
Dated this 18th day of February, 1982 at 2:00 p.m.
Jeri P. Murphy, City anner ana
Secretary to the Plann ng Co mission
of the City of Orange.
^;
L
STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) AFFIDAVIT OF POSTING ORDER
SS. OF ADJOURNMENT
COUNTY OF ORANGE )
Jere P. Murphy, being first duly sworn, deposes and says:
That I am the duly chosen, qualified and acting secretary of the
Planning Commission of the City of Orange; that the regular meeting
of the Planning Commission of the City of Orange was held on
February 17, 1982; said meeting was ordered and adjourned to the time
and place specified in the order of adjournment attached hereto; that
on February 18, 1982, at the hour of 2:00 p,m „ I posted a copy of said
order at a conspicuous place on or near the door of the place at which
said meeting of February 17, 1982 was held.
C