11-14-1990 - Minutes TC ClTY OF ORANGE
M/NUTES OF A REGULAR MFET/NC9
CI T Y TRAFF/C COMM/SSION
Date of Meeting: November 1�, 1�90
ROLL CALL - PRESENT - COMMiSSIONERS: D. Yarger, ,1. Fortier,
� N. Hower, 6. Leming,
F. Sciarra
PRESENT - STAFF: B. Dennis, Stg. B. Weinstein, P. Then,
Ba Herrick, C. Glass, D. Allenbach,
R. Gardner
Commissioner Leming left at 4:30 p.m. _
/. APPRO 1/AL t7F lVl/NUTES: C�ctober 10, 1990
RECOMMENDAT/ON: Approve as published by Recording Secretary.
MOTION - F. Sciarra
SECOND - J. Fortier
AYES Unanimous
1/. CONS'�NT CALENDAR
1 . Request for the installation of restricted or limited parking on the east side
of the 500 block of N. Cypress St.
Gilbert Vasquez
555 1/2 N. Cypress St.
Orange, CA 92666
Oral presentation w�s based on the written staff report, please refer to your
copy.
RECOMMENDA TION: Continue to January 1991 ,
M�TIQN D. Yarger
SECOND F. Sciarra
AYES Unanimous
2. Request for the instailation of red curb markings to create vision zones at
various locations on Creekside Ave., Singingwood St. and Stillwater Ave.,
east of Crawford Canyon Rd.
Beverly J. McKernie
D. A. Professional Management Assoc.
P. 0. Box 19530
Irvine, CA 92713
Oral presentation was based on the written staff report, please refer to your
copy. There was no discussion on this item.
RECOMMENDA T/ON: That the CTC, by Motion, APPROVE the request.
MOTION D. Yarger
SECOND F. Sciarra -
AYES Unanimous
3. Request for the installation of red curb markings between the driveways of
439 and 447 S. Lemon St.
Jean Dennis
445 S. Lemon St.
Orange, CA 92666 �
Oral presentation was based on the written staff report. Please refer to
your copy. There was no discussion on this item.
RECOMMENDA T/ON: That the CTC, by Motion, APPROVE the request.
I�IOTION D. Yarger
�EC�ND F. Sciarra
AYES Unanimous
4. Request for the installation of red curb markings between the driveways at
1810 and 1820 E. Rose Ave. _
Buddy Shipman
615 E. Monroe Ave.
Orange, CA 92667
Oral presentation was based on the written staff report, pl�ase refer to your
copy. There was no discussion on this item.
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RECOMMENDA TION: That the CTC, by Motion, APPROVE the request.
MOTION D. Yarger
SECDND F. Sciarra
AYES Unanimous �
//I. CONS/DERA T/Oli/1 TEMS
A. Request for the installation of a traffic signa/at the intersection of Tustin St.
and Quincy Ave.
Barbara DeNiro
11 '�8 E. Adams Ave.
Orange, CA 92667
Oral presentation was based on the written staff report, please refer to your
copy. Discussion on this item was as foilows:
C. G/ass - This item was presented in April 1990 relative to the signalization
issue along Tustin St. between Katella Ave. and Collins Ave. Based on
accident rates, pedestrian activity and traffic volumes it was determined
that neither location rr�et any of the warrants. An update of information
since April 1990, is as follows:
Traffic Vo/umes - Volumes on both Adams and Tustin have gone down in
the past 7 months. Specifically, Adams west of Tustin was counted with a
� volume of 2,800 per day at the first of the year and a recent �ount taken
shows a count of 2,000 vehicles per day, almost a 1/3 reduction. Tustin
has gone down from 38,000 to the range of 35,000 - 37,000 in this area.
Pedestrian Activity - Our earlier studies showed the predominant heavy
crossing is at Adams as opposed to Quincy; 32 crossing at Adams with 4 at
Quincy. The latest count showed that the crossings at Adams decreased
24 and showed an increase at Quincy to 13. The predominant move is still
- at Adams.
Accident History - Prior to this report and from 1/88 to 1/89 there were 27,
28 and 24 reported accid�ents ax Wilson, Adams and Quincy respectively.
Over the past 11 months we fi�d that there were a total of 9 reported
accidents in proximity to Quincy - 4 of those were at the intersection itself
and the remainder were several hundred feet away and only 2 of those
appeared to be susceptible to correction by control devices.
There were 19 reported accidents at Adams; 17 were intersection related
and couid have been susceptible to correction by signalization. We're
suggesting that at this time it does not appear that Quincy is necessarily the
best place to put a contro! device and we should probabiy take a harder
� look at Quincy and Adams with relationship to the new data we have and
� come up with varying control devices which could include anything from
mid-block pedestrian signal actuated 'Ped Only' vs. signaliiafiion of either
Adams or Quincy. We would like to defer this to the January 1991 meeting
with a recommended ptan of action at that time.
Chairman YarQer - 1 will open the public hearing to anyone in the audience.
Barbara DeNiro, 7178 E. Adams - I think some of the difference of the
traffic on our street was due to the fact that the work was completed on , -
the water project on Collins because we had alot of traffic diverted onto our
street as a result ofi that construction. With the expansion of the Post
Office all of the surrounding businesses have to put up with a loss of their
parking as the post office volume of traffic increases; has anyone
investigated the possibility of relocating this facility to the industrial area of
the City?
Chaiman Yar,yer - There being no other individuals to speak I hereby close
the public hearing and bring this back to the Commiss'roners for further
discussion.
Commissioner Lemin4 - This is the 3rd time this year we've discussed this
issue and I thought our direction last time was that we would have some
canversation with the Post Office as to coordination of this issue. Has there
been any contact with them?
C. Glass - Between now and the January report we are going to be putting
- together these conceptual plans with the Post Office there is probably about
3 or 4 varying ways that the Post Office wouid have to modify their entries
in order for signalization to work, until we get these concepts worked out
and a cost estimate it is of no benefit to contact the Post Office.
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B. Dennis - To signalize the entry of the Post Office we will loose, if they
are willing, at least half if not all of the parking that now serves the Post
Office. We want to have a very good idea of a proposal to them before we
approach them. I dan't expect we wouid get any apposition to a proposal
. to signalize the entran�e, however, if we put it in and removed all the
parking to make the signals work would be a different story altogether. The
parking and the aisles serving the Post Office are too close to Tustin St., we
would have to bring the traffic in off Tustin and literally move it all the way
around the Post Office and bring it back out to make the signal work
efficiently; that's one option. Another option may be a counter move
where we allow some traffic to occur parallel to the Post Office going
northbound while the signal restricts access off Tustin to an entry and then
an immediate southbound turn; it's not just a matter of going up and putting
in a signal there is alot more involved than that, we're not trying to delay
this issue but we want to be sure we have an acceptable package before
we start talking to the Post Office.
RECOMMENDATION: That the CTC, by Motion, DENY the request and !et
stafif investigate options and bring it back in January 1991.
MOTION D. Yarger
SECOND F. Sciarra
AYES Unanimous
B. Request that an 'Adu/t Schoo/ Crossing Guaral' be assigned at the
intersecteon of Almond Ave. and Batavia St.
Robyn Clarke
3626 Shallow Brook Ln.
Orange, CA 92667
Qral presentation was based on th�e written staff report, please refer to your
copy. There was no discussion on this item.
RECOMMENDAT/ON: That the CTC, by Motion, APPROt/E the request.
MOTION J. Fortier
SECOND B. Leming
AYES Unanimous
C. Request for the instailation of 'Warning F/ashers' at the intersections of Nohl
Ranch Rd. at Wyngate Rd. and Nohl Ranch Rd. at Rustic Gate Way.
Dennis Vander Zyl
2868 Wyngate Rd.
Orange, CA 92668
Oral presentation was based on the written staff report, please refer to your
copy. Discussion on this item was as follows:
Chairman Yarqer - Open public hearing for comments from the audience.
Dennis Vander Zy/, 2868 Wyngate Rd. - When we purchased the home the
Anaheim Hills area had not been developed so access really wasn't that
much of a problem. Once the freeway gets busy and people are backed up
Nohl Ranch Rd. becomes a secondary for Imperial and Lakeview everybody
comes over Nohl Ranch Rd. other than sitting in the traffic lines, especially -
during the peak hours. The volume has gone up enormously and the bike
Iane is being used as a 3rd lane/passing lane. I propose that you install an
actuated signal that changes to a red long enough for a north or southbound
car to safeiy exit. We just need to be able to get into the turning lane which
is already there so we can exit to the right and get in to oncoming traffic,
but we cannot see the on�oming traffic - it is absolutely impossible. It is a
bad design and we can't cut the hill off. The foliage can be maintained to
enhance visibility. !t extremely dangerous here. There is only an 18 in.
walkway in this area and it's potentially dangerous for pedestrians on foot.
Robert 5uter, 2883 Rustic Gate Wav - 1 think you should put that timer and
traffic counter out on a Friday, because sometimes it takes us '15 minutes to
get out of our street on Friday nights. I think alot of that Friday traffic is
people using Nohl Ranch Rd. as a shortcut to the Riverside Fwy. There are
10 hornes on my street.
James Duarte, 2851 W�nqate Rd. - There is a serious problem. � People
coming up Nohl Ranch Rd. cannot see that Rustic Gate and Wyngate Rd.
are there, they are blind intersections. These are a bad design tha�t 30 years
� ago wasn't a problem because at that time Nohl Ranch Rd. didn't go .
through and when it did it wasn't a problem until Anaheim Hills was
developed and occupied, and there are mare homes being planned for this _
area. Every night the 91 Fwy. backs up at this area and everyone knows
that you get off at the Lincoln/Nohl Ranch Rd. exit and yo� zip up Nohl
Ranch Rd. and take the side street all the way through and hop back an the
91 Fwy.,
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We're not complaining about speed so much because even if you slow the
cars down to 35 MPH you cannot see them, when you are trying to exit
Wyngate and looking left you cannot see oncoming cars unless it's night
and then you can see the� lights, and I think Rustic Gate has it worse than
we do. We have approx. 11 homes on Wyngate Rd.
Chairman Yarqer - If you're looking left from Wyngate there's an
embankment on the left side that blocks the view of motorists coming up
the hill, is that correct?
James Duarte - There is an embankment with ivy.
Chairman Yarger - If that was �ut-back it would open your view wouldn't it?
James Duarte - Yes, it would be a major project though.
Chairman Yarger - I'm sure it would be a major project but on the other —
hand it would be better than going to the City Council and asking #o install
two $80,000 traffic signals that will serve 10 and 11 households. Opening
a better vision zone will enable you t� have better access out onto Nohl
Ranch Rd.
James �uarte - 580,000 is alot of money, yet accident reports say there
have been only 1 a�cident in the past 5 years, I°We seen 3, so I don't know
why they're not getting reported. This problem has been around for a
while and now is the time to bring it to the City Council's attention before
the additional thousands of homes get built out here. There really isn't
another route to get out if you make a right turn you would have to loop
around and finally come back out just belov� Rustic Gate where you are
faced with the same situation. We do have a letter from Councilman
Barrera and in his memo of 11/13/90 wherein he says he supports having
sornething done about this intersection.
Cammissioner Lemin4 - From what we have heard it's obvious that we have
a problem here and we've just recently passed Measure M but hopefully in
the next few years we will see some results from the improvements that will
� be made to the freeway systems. However, I have cannot justify installing
a signal at every street that people need to make a left-turn out of. If you
took the city as a whole and looked at it that way we would have a signal
every a�ther block because people are having trouble. I would like to hear
more from staff as to improving sight visibility.
Bernie Dennis - As a resident of that area I am sure you realize those are not
truly bike lanes in that area. The reason that Nohl Ranch is striped for a
lane in each direction with left-turn lanes is two-fold:
,
,
The principal purpose was to move the traffic out to the middle of the
roadway to increase sight distance for all 4 intersections in this area; and
secondly, to try to retard the amount of traffic on the street. As a
secondary highway that road could be expected to accommodate in excess
of 20,00� cars a day, easily. If the bike lanes were enhanced to the point
where you, as an exiting motorist, had a reasonably high degree of
assurance that as you pulled out to improve your sight distance you didn't
encounter an 400 SEL coming up the bike lane would that partially alleviate
you� problem?
�ames Duarte - Yes I believe it would partially alleviate the problem but you
still can't see. It would provide a little more confidence inasmuch as you
could pull out a little farther to look. I believe this would help.
Bernie Dennis - The second part of this, and it's something that's included in
our TSIP program is to provide the sight distance by shaving off the banks. -
We're not real enthusiastic about undertaking that, nor do I think you as a
resident and particularly those on the corners would be about us doing it,
Nohl Ranch was the first of our true hillside development roadways. 1 doubt
that you will find another one Iike it, the sidewalk on one side the 2 ft.
walkway on the south side - that is it in regard to right�of-way, there is no
conventional 4 ft. or 6 ft. sidewalk and in order to provide a conventional
unobstructed 40 in. walkway we would be 2 ft. into someone else's
property.
The parabolic mirror that I paid $150 for lasted 4 1/2 hours, it is now
somebody's pizza pan.
, Chairman Yarcrer - I am n+�w closing the public hearing and bring this back
to the Commissioners for further discussion.
Commissioner Fortier - Your suggestion of re-striping the bike lane so that
the cars cou{d pull further out, could you elaborate?
Bernie Dennis - We could consider reducing the through lane width and
_ increasing the "bike lane" width. As you increase the curb side area it
allows the people exiting to move further out in the travel lane, but paint
doesn't totally work. We could probably maintain the integrity of a bike _
{ane and do some tope instal{ation very similar to what you've seen on
Cambridge north of Katella, which put at right angles to the street I can
assure you really gets your a�ttention.
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Commissioner Fortier - That's what I was thinking - the big yellow stripes
that move the lane over. The bike lane lends itseif to motorists driving right
through it if there are no bicycles. lf there are those big yellow stripes that
delineate that it's not part of the roadway motorist tend to comply.
Bernie Dennis - If we were going to do that we would certainly paint it and
also enhance it in a little different way and make it a little more definitive.
Commissioner Fortier - When you investigated this area did you find it to be
dangerous and do they have to wait 15 minutes to get out, or have to listen
for sound in order to get out?
Dave Al/enbach - We were there during an off-peak hour and his point is
well taken, there will be more traffic during the peak hours. Since you only
have one lane of travel in each direction your platoons of traffic are going to
be longer than if you have two lanes of traffic, so consequently it will cut-
down the amount of time you have or lengthen your delay in getting out —
from the side street. The sight distance is limited because of the slopes and -
the vegetation growing on them.
Commissivner Leminrx - We heard that some motorists using Nohl Ranch
may not be aware of these side streets, what about some type of signage
advising them of an upcoming intersection, would there be any value?
Bernie Dennis - ! can assure you that there is more than sufficient
intersection signs along Nohl Ranch Rd. maybe too many, because it is
double signed. That is to say that there is a sign ir► advance of each
intersection for each travel direction both north and southbound, and ifi
could be confusing.
Commissioner Fortier - �ly first suggestion would be to somehow enhance
those intersections with yellow stripes or shaving off the slopes so
motorists exiting the side str�eets have some incr�ased visibility. I would
like to make a motion that we look at what is the best possibility to make
those safer intersections either using paint or raised pavement markers and
also to cut some of the bank off it will help to look into that as well.
RECOMMENDA TION: That the CTC, by Motion, DENY the request for
installation of warning flashers.
M�TION J. Fortier
SECOND F. Sciarra
AYES Unanimous
RECOMMENDAT/ON: That the CTC, by Motion, look at put in an enhanced
visibility through paint, raised pavement markers, cutting some of the bank,
whichever wouid be the most appropriate means.
MOTION J. Fortier
SECOND N. Hower
AYES Unanimous
Commissioner Leming left the meeting at this time - 4:30 p.m.
D. Request for seduced speed limit signs on Cambridge St., and the installation
of a traffic signal at the intersection of Glendale Ave. and Cambridge St.
Virginia Nicholson
815 Glendale Ave.
Orange, CA 92665
Oral presentation was based on the written staff report, please refer to your
copy. Discussion on this item was as follows:
Chairman Yarger opened the public hearing.
Virg►inia Nicholson, 815 G/enda/e Ave. - We have always had problems with
the crossings and last May I was almost hit when crossing the street with
the crossing guard. The trees need to be trimmed and additional warning
signs need to be installed so motorist can see the crosswalk. There is no
sign that says PED Xing and there is no sign that says SCHOOL. There are
pavement marking of 30 MPH and as they go around the curve there is a
PED sign that is at least 200 ft. before th�e crosswalk. There were two
incidents where my granddaughter and myself were almost hit by a car
while we were crossing with the crossing guard.
Chairman Yarger - On these two occasions do yoli recall which direction the
motorist was driving?
Virqinia Nicholson - They were travelling north both times. In discussions
� with the crossing guard she has indicated that cars in the curb-side fane are
not stopping and when the children waiting to cross see her on the opposite
of the street move on out to stop traffic, then the children, who have a false
sense of security, go ahead and start to cross the street and not all of those
motorists will stop.
Chairman Yarger - Sgt. Weinstein, have we ever had any motors out there
in the AM or PM hours that have experienced this and issued any citatio�s?
S,qt. BarrY Weinstein - Yes, based on citizen concern we have implemented
a enforcement program that has been ongoing for the last 6 weeks, and we
ha��� is�ued a tremendous number of citations for speeding and turning _
violations both morning and afternoon, particularly during school hours and
we have had posetive feedback from our crossing guard, and we have
initiated this as an on-going enforcement program and have noticed that
violations and citations have significantly decreased since we have
implemented this program.
Vir inia Nicho/son - 'We have naticed as many as 3 motor officers working
this program on any one day, and on one Friday they had issued as many as
20 citations by noon. The new principal Mrs. Duarte is as equally upset
about the problem and has done as much as she can to try and help.
Gommissioner Lem;n_v - Is it your impression that alot of the prablems are
ca�sed during the dropping off and picking up o�f students?
Vir_qinia Nicholson - Yes, it's actually parents whose children attend the
school who are actually putting their children in jeopardy.
Commissioner Fortier - The driveway coming out is that part of the problem,
where the cars are coming in the driveway and others are dropping aff
children out on the street, does this compound the problem? We can't put
in a signal because it doesn't meet the warrants.
Virqinia Nicholson - It does contribute but the major problem is the speed.
Chairman Yar,ger - Did people slow down while the officers were there?
Viri�nia Nicho/son - Yes but after the officers were no longer there the
speeding resumed again.
Commissioner Fortier - Are the offenders parents of the school or people
just passing through? �
Virginia Nicho/son - Just passin� through I would say, but if you could
- possibly put in some more PED Xir�g signs it might help, here we only have
one sign. I would be in favor of a 15 MPH speed zone through her�e.
Chairman Yarger - If i'm not mistaken by the State code if we put in a
15 MPH sign there we couidn't enforce it anyway it wouid be thrown right
out of court. From what the warrants show it doesn't qualify for a signai,
however, Commissioner Fortier is going to talk to the school principal and
school district .to help alleviate the chifdren dropping off and pick;ng up their
children to make it an easier access on that side of the street, possibly
installing a circular driveway or a larger driveway; and also sta�f will look
into installing additionaf PED XING signs where appropriate, and to continue
the police enforcement.
Commissioner Fortier - Also, in my talk with the school principal I will ask
that maybe in her parent newsletter to tell the parent what the problem is
and that they will be ticketed, and ask them to help with the situation. The
other suggestion is to study the driveways and perhaps change the pattern
for designated drop-off sites that are safe.
Chairman YarQer - Clo:sed public hearing and return it to the Commissioners
for further discussion or recommendation.
RECOMMENDA T/ON: That the CTC, by Motion, DENY the request for the
installation of a traffic signa! and reducing the speed limit, predicated that
Commissioner Fortier meet with both the school principal and school board
to change travel patterns, modify the driveways with a possible drop-off
point and that Sgt. Weinstein continue the enforcement program in this
area.
MOTION D. Yarger
SECOND F. Sciarra
AYES Unanimous
E. Request for the installation of a t�affic sig»al at the intersection of Rancho
Santiago Blvd. and Walnut Ave.
Adrianna Reyes
332 N. Swidler St.
Orange, CA 92669
Oral presentation was based on the written staff report, please refer to your
copy. There was no discussion on this item.
REC4MMENDA T/ON: That the CTC, by Motion, DENY the request.
MOTION D. Yarger
SECDND J. Fortier
AYES Unanimous
!V. ORAL PRESENTA TIDNS
A. There being no further business presented to .the Commission, Chairman
Yarger adjaurned fhe meeting at 4:50 p.m.