01-09-1991 - Minutes TC Cl T Y OF QRA NGE
MINUTES OF A REGUL�1 R MEETING
C/TY TRAFF/C COMM/SSION
Da te o f Mee ting: Januar�r 9, 1 S9�
ROLL CALL - PRESENT - COMMISSIONERS: D. Yarger, J. Fortier
N. Hower, B. Leming,
,F. Sciarra �
PRESENT - ST/aFF: C. Glass, Sgt. B. Weinstein,
B. Herrick, D. Allenbach,
R. Gardner, P. Then
ABSENT - STAFF: B. Dennis
/. ELECT/ON QF CHA/RMAN & V/CE-CHA/RMAN
A. D/CK YARGFR is nominated as Chairrnan.
MU T/ON - Frank Sciarra
SECOND - N. Ho wer
A YES - Unanimous �
B. JOE FORT/ER is nominated as V/CE-CHA/RMAN.
M�J T/�N - D, Yarger
SECOND - N, Hc�wer
A YES - Unanimous
//. APPROVAL OF M/NUTES: November 14, 1990 �
Recommendation: y4pproved as published by.Recording Secretary.
MO TION - J. Fortier
SEC4ND - B. L eming
A YES - Unanimous
/1/. GONSENT CALENDAR
�. Request for the installation of red curb or 'No Parking Anytime'
signs on Featherhill Dr. in proximity to Meats Ave.
K. F. Kadletz
2523 N. Shady Forest Ln.
Orange, CA 92669
Oral presentation was based on the written staff report, please
refer to your cop y.
K. Kadletz - Requesting this posting in an attempt to eliminate
vehic%s with `For Sale' signs from parking at this intersection.
This is a residential area and these cars make it difficult to see on-
coming traffic when trying to enter the intersection.
D. Allenbach - Pointed out that the area where this is occurring► is
an Edison easement. We think this problem could move into the
resid en tial area if we p os t signs h ere.
Ghairman YarQer - What is the possibility of sending a patrol car
into tha�t area on a weekend? Do you have anyone available to go
into that area and issue citations, and maybe after a short period
of time that it would discourage people from parking their 'For
Sale' cars there?
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Sqt. Weinstein - When / spoke to Mr. Kadletz / let him kno w that
we were going to s tart Sa turda y en forcem en t which we ha ve
been doing, and at the same time over the past two weekends, /
have had motorcyc% officers monitoring that as often as possible:
We have issued a coup/e of tickets on Sunday's and after /istening
to Mr. Kadletz today we wil/ increase our Sunday enforcement
efforts again.
Durin� th e disc�ssion, th e C TC felt, tha t th e vehic%s were b ein
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parked on Featherhill Dr, because of the goo,d visibi/ity they would
receive. They felt that if 'No Parking Anytime' signage was
installed on both sides of the curb frontaqe of SCE easement, then
the problem would abate itself, The signage would encompass
approximately 450 ft. of curb frontage. lt was the opinion of the
CTC that the problem would not impact the residential area
because the vehic%s wou/d not receive the needed visibility.
RECOMMENDA T/ON: Tha t th e C TC, b y Mo tion, APPRO VE th e
. request.
MO T/ON - D, Yarger
SECDl1/D - F. Sciarra
A YES - Unanimous
2. Request for the re%cation of the 4CTD Bus Stop from the north
/eg of Main St. at the Wa/nut Ave./Orangewood St. intersection to
the south /eg. �
Manjit Parhar - Stops & Zones Dept.
. Orange County Transit District
11222 Acacia Parkway
P.O. Box 3005
Garden Grove, CA 92642-3005
�ral presentation was based c�n the written staff report, please
refer to your cop y, There was no discussion on this item.
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RECOMMENDA TION: Tha t th e C TC, b y Mo tion, APPRO VE th e
request.
MOT/ON - D. Yarger
SECOND - J. Fortier
AYES - Unanimous
3. Request for the installation of a painted red curb/bus 'Loading
Zone' on the west side of Linco/n St. north of Palm yra A ve. � .
Gordon Mitchel% Principal
Palm yra E/em en tary School
�325 E. Palm yra A ve.
Orange, CA 92666
Oral presentation was based on the written staff report. Please
refer to your cop y. There was no discussion on this item.
RFCOMMENDATION: That the CTC, by Motion, APPROVE the
request.
MOTION - D. Yarger
SECOND - J. Fortier
A YES - Unanimous
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/V, CONSIDERA T/QN/TEMS
A. Request for the installation of a traffic signa/ at the intersection of
Tustin St. and Quincy�4 ve. -
Barbara DeNiro
� � �8 E. Adams A ve.
�range, CA 92667 . �
Commissioner Fortier - l have noticed that the continuously
flashing yel%w light mesmerizes the motorists. / have noticed
that pedestrians attempting to cross here get half-way across and
are stranded because motorists don't stop. l know we've had
pedestrians hurt here and it seems to me that l don't know why
we have the striping and the flashing lights here in the first place;
and l think we're just asking for trouble keeping them here.
Commissioner Leminq - We've addressed this many times and l
think it's pretty evident that we're not going to signalize this
location - but l have problems with putting in an 'pedestrian
activiated' flashing light - meaning there would be no flashing light
on Tustin St. a PED would come up and push a button then the
light would start flashing and then the PED could cross here. ln
m y estimation / think you're giving a false impression that it
would be safe to walk across, and l don't think it would be. From
a PED standpoint l think it would be more dangerous than what is
out there today. lf we can't signalize this location there shouldn't
b e an y con tro/s a t all. l'm n o t sure wh o is using tha t crossing
location; is it patrons of the Post Office or people using the bus
stop.
D. Allenbach - /n our studies we have found that the heavier
number of people using the crosswalks are people crossing at
Adams Ave. 4ur studies indicate that the majority of pedestrians
are crossing in order to utilize the bus stop.
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Commissioner Hower - Could we get a legal option as to the
position of liability for the city if the flashers are removed entirely
since they were put in primarily as a safety measure?
City Atty. Herrick - Removing the flashers but /eavinq the striped
pedestrian crosswafks may increase liability from the s�andpoint
that you're removing some protection given to the PED, however,
/ think PED actuated flashers may also increase that. liability and .
probably to a greater extent that PED still have a duty of care
when crossing at a marked crosswalk, and. / don't see it being a
ma%or increase in liability by removing the flashers. / do see,
potentially, a major increase by PED actuating them.
Chairman Yarqer - What about if we remove both the flashers and
the marked crosswalk, are we removing liability if we take out
both?
Commissioner Leminq - Whatever we do here should be done
under the premise of decreasing city liability. lf we remove
everything would it still be legal for pedestrians to cross here?
D. Allenbach - Yes it's still legal for PED crossing whether or not a
marked crosswalk is there or not. An y intersection whether it is
painted or not is a legal crossing point.
City Atty. Herrick - lt is possible to change the presumption in the
law about the legality of crossing by ordinance and that may be
something that a traffic study could address as the possibility of
designating crossing and no crossing zones along Tustin St.
because the crossing problem doesn't exist just here, it exists all
along Tustin except at the major intersections where there is
device regulation.
Commissioner 5ciarra - What if, rather than having a pedestrian
activated yel%w flashing or a red signal, what if we just put in a
red flashing light?
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D. Allenbach - We can't legally put in a �ed flashing light, that
indicates that it is a STOP sign and we can't do it for a two-way.
/f we were to take the intersec.tion of Tustin/Quincy and make it
an all-way STOP then we could do that, but we could not just put
in a red f/ashing light for Tustin and not do something for the side
street.
Barbara DeNiro - � 118 E, Adams - We really need to look at
re%cating the Post Office to the industrial area of the city. Have
you considered/ooking in i`o re%ca ting the bus stop a wa y fror» this
/ocation?
Commissioner Leminq - VI/e were discussing the possibility of
removing the bus stops, the flashing yellow lights and the
crosswalks al/ tagether, since you live in that area ►nrhat are your
feelings, do you utilize those crosswalks?
B. DeNiro - No, becac�se / ride a bike and when / walk / go up to
Tustin and Collins, / never cross fhere because l know better but
the caution l woul�d use when crossing the street isn't the caution
some other people might use.
Chairman Yarc�er - Do we have bus ridership figures for this
particu/ar stop? Could this be moved to the south side of Quincy?
Commissioner Lemincr - / think a pedestrian activated flasher
would just give us greater liability and give a false sense of
security to pedestrians. lf we can't install some type of a red light
and actually make the traffic stop for the crossing activities /
don't feel they should be crossing at all. / make a motion that we
recommend removal of all flashers inc%ding the two crosswalks,
and we may want to recommend staff contact OCTD about
removing altogether that other bus stop which will eliminate some
of the crossing activities.
Commissioner Sciarra - Are vve required to notify someone before
we do som e thing like tha t?
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D. Allenbach We could contact OCTD and find out how valuab/e
that bus stop is to them and whether they could move it or de%te
- it from their route altogether. lf they are going to do that we
would probably come back through CTC� on that bus stop issue
separate/y. �
Chairman Yarqer - That next bus stop at Katella is what, maybe
� 500-600 yards?
Commissioner Lemina - No, it's not that far.- �
Commissioner Lemina - The motion l am proposing is the removal
of the crosswa/ks and the f/ashing ye/%w lights.
C. Glass - /f you're going to go ahead with that motion may /
suggest that we reserve the right �o come back to the CTC if we
find some flaw in that rationale. / do not know the past history of
how those flashers were installed.
MO T/ON - B. Leming
SECOND - J. Fortier
A YES - Unanimous
Commissioner Fortier - lf we find problems with this rationale we
can always rescind our action of today.
Commissioner Leminq - When they take it to City Council if they
find there is a probler» with this recommendation they wi// send it
back to us again. And at time we can address the bus stop issue.
B. Request for installation of 'No Parking 7 - � 1:30 a.m, for
Street Sweeping' purposes signs on Marywood Dr. between
Villa Real Dr. and Meadow Grove Rd.
Karen Hsu-Hardt
3236 E. Marywood Dr.
4range, CA 92667
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Chairman Yarqer - / am going to make the motion that we deny
the request predicated on the fact that we have a package going
to the City Council right now on a city-wide street sweeping .
program. We have piece-mea/ these so much we have signs all
o ver to wn. Wha t's going to happen is we are going to put in a
sign sa ying your area on a certain da y sa y Tuesda y 7-� 1:3D a,m.
No Parking. ln 60 days the city is�going to have to come out and
- rip those signs out or re-do those signs because the day will
probably change, and tha t's the only reason-wh y l would den y this
a t this tim e; and / ha ve had con versa tion with som e Coun cil
peop/e and have received their supp�rt on this city-wide
ordinance. �
Karen Hsu-Hardt, 3236 E. Marywood Dr. - / was to/d l had to
petition for these signs even though /pay taxes for this service. lf
you can guarantee me within a re/atively short period of time, 2
months, that the city council is going to ratify the entire city to be
posted / would be more tJ�an happy to shut up, however, I'm not
so sure you are all that c%se. You tell me, what woul� you bet
on?
Chairman Yarc,�er - l think we're real c%se to getting this done.
Not only will this get streets clean but we will be able to aid the
police in getting rid of abandoned vehicles left on the streeto
Karen Hsu-Hardt - lf you deny it now and then say in 2 months
the city doesn't ratify the program, do l have to start all over
again?
Chairman Yar„�er - l think that once you have the petition all we
would have to do is bring it back up on Consideration Calendar
and it may take another 30 days if the Council should deny the
program.
� Commissioner Leminq - Theoretically, if we were to deny this and
go far the city-wide program, what time-wise will it take to get it
to the Council?
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Chairman Yarger - Am l wrong in sa ying 60 da ys?
C. Glass - A public hearing wou/d be required, we would have to
post the proper legal notices with the proper timing and l think it .
would take at least one month before we could put it on the
Council agenda. Once the Council acts on the item, it would have
to be an ordinance, and that would take 30 days for 45 days?
� Cit�r Atty. f-lerrick - /t would require two separate meetings at
least 5 days apart, which we can do for the, 1 st and 2nd readings,
sometimes that takes a coup/e of weeks and then it wou/d be a
30 day time period before the ordinance would become effective
unless the Council, by 4/5 vote, found that it was an emergency.
/t seems to me the earliest you can have an effective ordinance
would be about 2-�/2 months, that's not allowing for tirne for
signage and implementation of the program.
C. Glass - Were this city-wide ordinance to go into effect
depending on what type of program were established rabviously
we coulo�n't sign the entire city in a short period of time. lt would
have t� be done like our street name sign rep/acement program
and be done in phases, and this phasing could actually take over a
year at least. You could expect ,qetting to Council within the next
30 days with an item and assuming there were no major
objections in the public hearing, at least you would have an
answer from the Council relative to the approval of the ordinance
and then the mechanics of the time until it �fficially became
effective would be the time Mr. Herrick is talking about.
Chairman Yarqer - Phyllis if we could get this together quick
enough could we get it on the Agenda far 1/22/9� for Counci/?
P. Then - We can take our request to the Council, what they
wou/d do at that time is instruct the City Clerk's office to calendar
a public hearing, not knowing what the agenda for public hearings
are, they could be pretty full or they could have vacancies, we
don't know how many people are waiting for public hearings. lt
could be 3D-60-90 days depending on it's calendar. lf/ may rnake
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a sugqestion; perhaps if you want you could go ahead and
approve this particu/ar petition and make it contingent on how
quickly we can get the eity-wide ordinance through; if it appears
that it wiU take some teme for the ordinan►ce to get t� the public
hearinq process and passed, perhaps we cou/d go ahead and
alleviate this particular street and ther� address the imp/ementation
of �he city-wide. . .
Chairman Yarc�er - /f we went ahead and approved this on
Marywood, how long would it take to get the signs installed? �
C. G/ass - We'd go to Council on �/22/9� and if it was approved
we could write a work order the fol%wing day, and figure another
3 weeks before the work could be scheduled.
Commissioner Leminq - Your concern was the number of signs
that mi�ht have to be replaced at a la�er date, my feeling is that it
will take more than 60 da ys but ho w man y signs are we ta/king
about to post an area?
D. Al/enbach - Minimum of 3 on each side of the street.
C. Glass - Under our current program, doing these individually, we
put up the smaller �2 x 1 S sign and we post them �5� ft, apart,
When we go city-wide in all probability we'll post the beginning of
blocks or the entry to tracts with larger signs, but alot less signs.
Karen Shu-Hardt � /'d prefer the latter, every person on the street
is aware of the situation.
Chairman Yar� - How do you suppose those people would feel if
we sign it and then hold a public hearing, would we get any
support from that area once they have the signs to help us get the
city-wide program?
Karen Hsu-Hardt - /'d be very happy to talk to the neighbors aboa�t
it, most people would like to have their streets clean and looking
good.
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Chairman Yarrc,�er - You say your street is not getting swept, who
are the offenders of the parked vehic%s?
Karen Hsu-Hardt - There are sporadic. Because the city doesn't
want any liability the sweeper operator doesn't want to cut in too
c%se.
Commissioner Sciarra - lf the city-wide ordinance was passed
today you would be satisfied?
l would recommend then that we deny this at this time, and in the
evenrt the city-wide ordinance is not passed within the next 90
days, you bring it back and then we will pass it.
P. Then - Would you put this in abeyance and let me go to the
City Clerk's office and find out the availability of a public hearing
date would be�
Chairman Yarger - Alright.
Commissioner Lemin4 - The only problem l have with that is that
we have a request here, we've had staff look at it and their
recommendation is approval, you've got 90% of the residents
supporting it, and from legal counsel you've got a minimum of 2
months, and then you can't guarantee it's outcome onc� it gets to
the public hearing before the Council, you've got a neighborhood
with a problem and a resident who has been working on it for 6
months, we`ve done this before, l think we should carry on with
the system we've got going. l think we should approve it.
l make the motion that we approve the request for No Parking for
Street Sweeping purposes. .
M4 TIUN - B. Leming
SEC4ND - J. Fortier
A YES - Unanimous
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Phyllis Then - The fi�st availab/e opening for a public hearing :
� would be March �2, 1991.
C. Request f or the insta!lation of a 'STOP' sign on Crawford
Canyon Rd, at Creekside A ve.
Bonnie & Mike M. arona �
5744 E. Creekside A ve., #19
Orange, CA 92669 . �
There was no discussion on this item. .
RECOMMENDA T/ON; That we accept staff's recommendation and
DENY this request.
MO T/ON - D. Yarger
SECOND - J. Forteer
A YES - Unanimous
D. Request for the installation of 'P�D X/NG' signs or 'Pavement
Markings' on White Oak Ridge at the westerly end of Santiago
Hills Park.
Jean e tte Walters
714� E. Tangle wood Trails
Orange, CA 92669
Chairman Yarqer - Was there a change on that item?
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t
D. Allenbach - We recommend that the installation of advanced y
warning signs be insta//ed and along with that the insta//ation of �
30 ft. of red curb on the south side of White Oak Ridge where the
paseo crosses W�iite Oak Ridge, this is adjacent to an existing
public park. White Oak Ridge is already posted for 'No Parking A t
Anytime' with the exception of the park frontage. The proponent �
has stated that on weekends and at other times many vehieles are
parked fairly c%se to this paseo crossing, and in order to provide a
sight distance for both motorists and pedestrians we recommend
this 30 ft, of rec� curb. �
There was no further discussion on this item.
Motion was made to APPROVE the item per staff's
recommendation.
MO T/ON - D. Yarger
SECUND - F. Sciarra
A YES - Unanimous
E. Request to 'Prohibit Right Turns' between the hours of 7-9 a.m.
and 3-6 p.m. at the intersection of Chapman Ave. and City Drive.
Dennis Powers, Asst. Police Chief
UCl Police Dept. - UGl Medical Center
�01 City Drive, Route 90
Qrange, CA 92668
Oral presentation was based on the written staff report, please
r�efer to your cop y.
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Discussion before the Commission ensued between UCl
representatives, members of the Commissian and city staff and it .
wa.s determined that there is a /arge .number of pedestrians
crossing at the subject intersection. lt should be noted, however,
that most of the these pedestrians are employees of UCl Medical
Center �ho are parking in the UCl parking /ot located at Chapman
and Manchester. City staff expressed concern that this type of
turn restrictions would have a negative effect on the %ve/ of
service for the entire intersection; and that frequently this type of
signage is not seen by motorists leading �to an increase in the
number of auto versus pedestrian accidents.
The motion was made to have staff further study the request and
come back to CTC again next month for a final determination.
M�T/ON - J, Fortier
SEC4ND - F. Sciarra
A YES - Unanimous
F. Request for the establishment of ' Speed 2ones' on
Chapman Ave., Newport Blvd., Jamboree Rd., Santiago Canyon
Rd., Can yon Vie w Rd., Sky/ark Rd., and White Oak Ridge.
Traffic Engineering Division
City of Qrange
Commissioner Hower - / would like to make the motion that we
carry this over onto a workshop session.
MO T/ON - lU. Hower
� SECOND - D. Yarger
A YES - Unanimous
Second motion is made to ho/d this workstudy session on January
24th, at 8:30 a.m., in the Weimer Roome
MO T/ON - D, Yarger
SECOND -
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V. ORAL PRESENTA T/QNS
�. Commissioner LeminQ mentioned a burnt out street light at
the intersection of Collins Ave. and Hart St. being out for
quite som e tim e.
D. Allenbach - Responded that we were aware that SCE
seemed to be taking an inordinate amo�unt of � time in
effecting their repairs after malfunctions have been reported
to them. . �
1 am going to be in contact with Pat Buttress of SCE, who l
have talked to in the past when encountering similar
problems, and / think she will be able to resolve this service
issue.
2. Chairman Yaraer - Joe did you get a chance to talk to the
principal and the school district about Taf� School on
Cambridge St.? We ha�d discussed �he installatian of a
circular driveway to facilitate safer loading and unloading of
�tudents.
Commissioner Fortier - Yes we went out there with Sgt.
Weinstein, Chuck G/ass and we met with the office staff
and we wa tch ed an op era tion tha t flo wed as sm oo thly as
an yone could wish for an hour and a half. We were told b y
both office staff and a coup/e of parents that usually it was
a snarl and a nigh tmare, but for som e reason toda y it was
working.
There being no further business presented to the Commission,
Chairman Yarger adjourned the meeting at 6:00 p.m.
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