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10-13-1993 - Minutes TC , ,.,�;, ' �� _,.�� � CITY OF ORANGE MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION Date of Meeting: October 13. 1993 ROLL CALL-PRESENT-COMMISSIONERS: D.Yarger,J. Fortier,N.Hower,B. Leming, F. Sciarra PRESENT- STAFF: B. Dennis,B.Herrick,Lt.E. Tunstall,C.Glass, D. Allenbach.P.'Then I. APPROVAL OF MINUTE5 May 12, 1993 - APPROVE as published by Recording Secretary. MOTION: F. Sciarra SECOND: B. Leming ' AYES: Unanimous September 8, 1993 - APPROVE as published by Recording Secretary. MOTION: F. Sciarra SECOND: B. Le�ing AYES: Unanimous II. CONSENT CALENDAR 1. Request for the installation of driveway vision zones on the west side of Grand St. opposite City Hall. City of Orange Traffic Engineering Division 300 E. Chapman Ave. Orange, CA 92666 There was no discussion of this item. RECOMMENDATION: That the CTC,by motion APPROVE the request. MOTION: F. Sciarra SECOND: B. Leming AYES: Unanimous � . CITY TRAFFIC CUMMISSION Minutes of Regular Meeting: October 13. 1993 III. CONSIDER.ATIUN ITEM5 A. Request for a school crossing guard at LaVeta Ave. and Parker St. Patricia Davin 700 W. LaVeta Ave.,#HS Orange,CA 92668 Oral presentation was based on the written sta,fJ'report,please refer to your copy. There was no discussion of this item. RECOMMENDATION: That the CTC,by motion DENY the request. MOTION: J.Fortier SECOND: B. Leming AYES: Unanimous B. Request for the installation of a mid-biock schooi crosswalk on Shaffer St. befiween Chapman Ave. and Almond Ave. Jei�'rey Sunderman,Administrator of Support Services ' St. John's Lutheran School 154 S. Shaf�er St. Orange, CA 92666 � Oral presentation was based o� the written staff report, please refer to your copy. Chairman Yarger opened the public hearing for the following discussion of this item. Karl Birnstein, Principal St. John's Lutheran School - 154 S. Shaffer St - We requested this because on both sides of the street are classroom buildings and students and their parents come out of these buildings and then access the parking lot and they also like to cross the street. Our experience has been,that even thou,gh we have this other mid-block crosswalk that not a11 pa�ents are helpful and cross down here, even after numerous reminders to use a safe crossing area, so our - intent is to attempt to provide safe crossing locations for these people. Commissioner Fortier-What would happen if one of the other crosswa.lks were eliminated? Principal Birnstein - That's also a problem, the crosswalk at Moreland would be less important than the existing mid-block crosswalk. Commissioner Fortier -What would happen if you were to try to educate your students and their parents by providing personnel at that point�1Vioreland Dr.),you'd be surprised whax happens afl:er a while,they seem to leam. When we have 2-4 crosswalk on one street it creates more problems than it solves. Principal Birnstein-I understand that you see alot more streets than I do,but what we're seeing is alot of people ind.iscrimina.tely crossing all over the people. We write notes to people each week reminding them of the correct crossing locations; if you think this is not going to work you will decide that. _- 2 . � CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION Minutes of Re ular Meetin ; October 13 1993 Bernie Dennis - Typically you don't try to introduce pedestrian activity in an a,rea where�,�,e have alot of turning movements. Principal Birnstein-The renovation will be a few years with the new building. If Moreland Dr, is a one-way street it would be helpful if it were posted, it isn't posted now; wluch would help our traf�c control dramatically. Chairman Yarger closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for their comments and a motion. RECOMMENDATION: That the CTC, by motion DENY the request based on the fact that it probably wouldn't enhance protection of children or any other pedestrians. MOTION: B.Leming SECOND: J. Fortier AYES: Unanimous Commissioner Fortier-If Mr. Birnstein would submit a request to the CTC to post Moreland Dr. as a one-way street it may help with their traf�ic problems. C. Request for the installation of an A11-Way STOP at the intersection of Bixby Ave. and Oceanview St. ' Dorothy Gibson 3032 N. Oceanview St. Orange, CA 92665 Oral presentation is based on the written staf�report, please refer to your copy. There was no discussion on this item. RECOMMENDATION: 'That the CTC, by motion APPROVE the request, based on tra,ffic volumes and approach speed. MOTION: F. Sciarra S�COND: J. Fortier AYES: Unanimous 3 - CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION Minutes of Regular Meeting: October 13, 1993 - —� -- D. Request to close Adams Ave. west of Tustin St. in proximity to Shattuck St. Bob Jones 1343 E.Adams Ave. Orange,CA 92667 Oral presentation is based on the written sta,f�`'report, please refer to your copy. Chairman Yarger opened the public hearing for the following discussion. John White 1106 E. Adams Ave. -The changes that have occurred in the traffic pattern over the years alot of the homes have gone through transition and there are now alot of younger families living on this street and there has been a great increase in traffic volumes. It appears to me that there are an inordinate number of cars making a right turn from Tustin and go along Adams on over the Cambridge, where the turn left. I don't know why they would prefer to use Adarns and not use Katella,it's the same trip. We are designated a collector street but it dcesn't make sense to be collecting traffic from Katella. It seems that the students attending California School are coming from grea.ter distances,the student pedestrian traf�ic is much heavier than ever before;this presents a great danger to continue to allow "thru traffic" down Adams in light of this danger is somewhat irresponsible. Rod Kossack, 11460 Coriender,_Ft. Vallev - We purchased an apartment building here 5 years ago (1538 E. Adams Ave.), we took about $1/2 million dollars of investors money and we rely on , Adams Ave. to rent our units. There are only a few apartment buildings in the area, there are about 6 four-plexes on Shattuck,there is an 8-unit building to the west of us and then there is our building and we put out a sign when there is a vacancy and if we have no traffic we can't rent our units. We ha.ve a responsibility to our limited partners when we took their money to provide a return on their investment and vacancies are very hard to fill in this economy and I would say 90%0 of our residents come from the street advertisement. I know this street closure would hurt our property value. Bernie Dennis -How do you suggest prospective tenants locate your complex? Rod Kossack - We put our signs out in front of our building. I lrnow alot of our tenants come from the other buildings to the west of us,Tustin St. advertising is not effective because there isn't _ room enough for us to install a sign. Bob Jones 1343 E. Adams Ave. -The survey staff referred to which indicated 1800 cars,I believe this count was performed in July after the school term had ended, so the count did not reflect the school traffic. Backing our of our driveway's is a real risk. We won't let our 4 year old daughter play in the front yard for fear she might g4 out into the street. The postal workers are one of the biggest offenders, they use Adams to get to the Post Office and by pass the arterial stxeets where they might have more of a delay in tr�'ic congestion. Commissioner Lemine-You're located where? Bob 7ones-I°m four houses off Lincoln St.;between California and Lincoln. Commissioner Lemin�-Is that school genera.ted traffic coming from Tustin? Bob Jones-I see alot of trai�ic coming down Tustin and then turning into our street and continuing on through. 4 CITY TR.AFFIC COMMISSION Minutes of Regular Meeting: October 13, 1993 Commissioner Fortier - The validity of the traf�ic count stands, it's immaterial if the count was taken whether school was in or out of session. People are using that street whether or not they are going to the school and it shouldn't even be part of the survey. Bernie Dennis - During the course of the study and the neighborhood meetings we discussed, at leng�th,the impact of any action relative to the school. We would think the majority,in fact all of them are situated easterly of California,Wilson,Lincoln and it was deliberately set up that way to avoid conflicts with school traffc. 06viously the least restrictive, in regard to ac�essibility to the school would be Option E because it maintains the integrity of the azea relative to school area whether it be vehicular or pedestrian trips. The 50/50 diverters(north side/south side)impacts one of the trip links, it's either going to impact the residents easterly of Lincoin going to school, but I think with our discussions with area residents,we were very emphatic that we would do nothing to jeopardize accessibility to the school. Bob 7ones - Something needs to be done on that street, and maybe closure isn't the solution. We feel people will go around the diverters. � Bernie Dennis - In preparation for the neighborhood meetings Chuck prepared 20 diverter strategies, and after they were all pretty well analyzed by the residents in the Adams/Lincoln/California area,it boiled down to the 3 options Chuck indicated. I don't thinlc the Adams residents care where the street is closed as long as it's westerly of Tustin to � prohibit the through moves from the residential are to the commercial area along Tustin. Chairman Yar�er-If we put up a full-blown diverter up to block the street and a house catches fire and the firemen can't get there as quickly because the street is closed off, and/or if something should occur causing an emergency to one of the resident's (criminal activity) and the police can't respond as quickly, would this be a 'filter down' situation where the resident can turn around and sue the city because there is a barricade and the emergency personnel cannot get through fast enough to respond to the emergency in time to avert disastrous consequences? Bob Herrick, Asst. City Attorney - Ordinarily not, unless the particular option that is selected would create a situation that would somehow violate the development standards that we've set in _ order to facilitate fire and police access. I would imagine there are ways to create these diverters in such a way that they could be bypassed for emergency purposes. We do that with some of the private tra.cts, but no in general the city does not incur liability or a delay generated by traffic control. Chairman Yar�er-Lt.Tunstall,could you give us some perspective on behalf of the Police Dept.? Lt. Ed Tunstall. OPD Traffic Bureau -Due!o the fad thot the Lieutenant did not activate his microphone his response to tbe Chairman's question was not audibl� Bob Herrick-We should clarify that the fact that there would not be liability occurring to the city dces not mean there would not be delays and that public safety should be concerned, but�this merely addresses the legal liability issue. Bob Jones - What about using a break-away or spring mounted type diverter, they would allow emergency vehicles to drive through and still reta.in the diverter. — 5 � CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION, Minutes of Regular Meeting: October 13, 1993 Tom Erdman. 924 E. Adams Ave. - I live at the end of Adan�s at Cambridge. There aze alot of people using Adams as a by-pass street getting to the Post Office or to the commercial district on Tustin St. If possible I would make each stre�t a cul-de-sac because it's a residential neighborhood,not a street for through traffic. Lil,y Vanderbilt, 447 Country Hill Rd.,Anaheim-I own two 4 plexes one on Shariuck and one on Locust. I realize the residents point of view with the traf�ic on Adams, but what about the people who live along Sha.ttuck and Locust? We are already in cul-de-sacs and in order to get out we have to go around and if you close Adams it becomes even more difficult. Chairman Yarger-Before we continue with the other speakers I would like to see a show of hands who are in favor of what type of closures. Option A None Option B None Option C None Option D None Option E 15 Option F None Doesn't care 1 Opposed to all closures 3 . John Elsev, 1311 E. Adams Ave. - I did my own traf�'ic survey by standing out in front of my house as I can see both through to Tustin and to Cambridge. I stood out there for some 6 hours and counted 520 cars. I only noted ca.rs that came right in front of my house I didn't count those that turned prior to my home. These 6 hours were done at�arious times over a 2 week period, mostly during the evening usually from 6-9 p.m. 47% either came in off of Tustin and went westerly or they enterec,l from Cambridge and went east to Tustin St. 15% I �all local because they either used a driveway on Ada�ns. The other percent I don't lrnow where they went. I understand that a traf�ic signal is being considered for Tustin/Adams, if that is installed I think it would only aggravate the problem,there would be much more thru traffic than we have now. With thank in mind I think a full closure would be appropriate since we have mostly thru traffic on the street and the nature of the traffic has changed so much. - Mike Tunstall 1428 E. Adams Ave. -I'm on the corner of Adams/Lincoln and we bear the most of the traffic. The Villa Theater has recently been remodeled, while this was open we had quite alot of cars bouncing off our curb and the trees next to my house late at night. I checked with California School and the kids on the east side of Tustin do not attend California School so school traffic on Adams to California School is coming from the apartments and duplexes on Shattuck and those area,they aren't coming from anywhere else�long Tustin St. David Martin 1105 E Adams Ave. - I have to wait 4-5 minutes to be able to back out of my driveway at 7:30 a.m. because of a11 the traffic coming through. I've also had to keep the front bedroom windows closed because at night we get alot of speeding tra.f�'ic which generates alot of noise, so in order to sleep we have to keep the windows closed. Conversations at 7:00 a.m.on the sidewalk with some of my neighbors had to stop while traff'ic goes by because of the noise. Had I known wha.t kind of traffic this area really had, back in April, I probably wouldn't have bought in that neighborhood. - 6 ' CI'TY TRAFFIC COMMISSION Minutes of Re ular Meetin : October 13 1993 Chairman Yarger closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for their comments and a motion. Commissioner Sciarra- One of the problems tbat we ha.ve in the City of Orange is the increase of tra�c. If we close Adams we will redistribute the tra�c onto one of the other streets in the area and we will have another group of people request we close their street also. I don't personally feel that cl o s u r e o f t h e s t r e e t a t t h is t i me is warran t e d. Commissioner Lemin¢-If we chose#A or#B that allows traffic to go westbound from Tustin,and from all the comments made the problem of thru trips is generated by the westbound traf�'ic. #C would keep tra�c from going westbound, it keeps people from going to the Post Office while still allowing the residents access. #D separates the neighborhood, the single-family homes from the high-density residential uses; if anything is to be done I think it should be done between the commercial and residential uses so we're down to 2 choices in my mind. #E is a full closure and #C is a partiat closure of westbound,or to leave it alone entirely. Most of the residents seem to be concerned with speed and children's saf�ty. 3�es there h�s been a turn-over of the residents within the neighborhood and families with younger children are moving in now,which will generate an increase in traf�c inasmuch as when the kids grow up and leave you would have less people. Younger families have Little Lea.gue, PTA, Scouts, shopping and they themselves are generating more trips within the area. . Chairman Fortier - I noticed that 80% of the traf�ic is internal tra�ic within the complexes and most of the citizens here are for the street closure, if any action is taken today I would only be able support a total street closure or to leave it as it is. I've also heard that closing that probably won`t impact other streets, based on staf�s assessment. My one concern with the street closure is the apartment complex ax 1538 E. Adams Ave., but those tenants would have access to Tustin St. by the two driveways. ' I would not have a problem with a trial closure of the street to see what, if any, impact is on the neighborhood and that we review this after 6 months to see what impacts there have been. Commissioner Hower-What's the accident history on Adams Ave.? Chuck Glass-Nothing significant or unusual. RECOMMENDATION: That try it with blockage with some non-pennanent fixture for 6 months (Option#F)and deternune any impacts that would occur. MOTION: J. Fortier SECOND: F. Sciarra. DISCUSSION: Commissioner Lemin�-My problem with#F is that I'm not sure that is a logical place to close it off. You've got a number of trips generated by the apartments. If we approve F I would feel more comfortable if we tied it to signalization at Tustin/Adams. Commissioner Hower-What's the timetable for signalization at this intersection? 7 � � CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION Minutes of Regular Meeting: October 13. 1993 Bernie Dennis -That is not budgeted at this time,if we were to budge�t a si$na1 at this time it would be in the 1994/95 budget year. VOTE ON OPTION#F AYES: Fortier, Sciarra NOES: Leming,Hower,Yazger Option F fails with a vote of 2 to 3. RECOMMENDATION: That we ctose the street as outlined in Option#E,on a 6-month basis. MOTION: B. Leming SECOND: N.Hower VOTE ON OPTION#E AYES: Leming,Fortier, Sciarra NOES: Hower,Yarger Option E is approved with a vote of 3 to 2. Bernie Dennis - The residents will receive notices for the City Council public hearing on this request as they have the final authority. This will be a 7:00 p.m. session. We cannot give you a firm public hearing date now,we don't know what other public hearings may already be scheduled. � IV. 4RAL PRES�NTATIONS . PUBLIC PARTICIPATION - At the conclusion of the meeting of items listed on this agenda, members of the public may address the City Traf�ic Commission regarding items of interest to the public that are within the subject jurisdiction of the CTC. Gordon H. Parsons 1907 E.Monroe Ave.,#8 Orange,CA 92667 I live at the corner of Monroe and Highland and also the alley that nins behind the Post Of�ice. Both Highland and the Post Of�'ice al.ley are used for a raceway and there are lots of children and it's quite dangerous for them. I'm here though to talk about the pedestrians who are violating the TTO CROSSING' signs along Collins Ave. between the overpass and Tustin St. They just absolutely ignore them, hundred's of them go back and forth stopping traffic all the time. I've seen men,women and children,men with babies in their arms, they can't be seen at night because they don't dress with reflective clothing. There have been some terrible accidents along there which I laiow you are aware of those. My suggestion is for you to widen the sidewalk where there is a railing above a sewage area and then put whale-chain fences right along the curbs betwcen the Highland entry to Collins and the first driveway to the mobile home and the first driveway at Stater Brothers market. Runntng right up over the bridge on both sides of the sidewalks because also if there is an overhead coverage th� children can't get up there and throw things down onto the freeway. 8 K ' CITY TR.AFFIC COMMISSION Minutes of Re�ular MeetinQ: Qctober 13. 1993 The primary interest is to try and keep those pedestrians from crossing that way, putting up crosswalks with signal lights in and on the east side of the bridge approach over the SR 55 Fwy. I would propose the idea of ha�ing an electriically lighted siga at night that would flash warnings�- WALK PEDEST'RIANS - SLOW, then if the PED light is pushed and the light changes the cars can stop in time, but coming over the bridge at times they are so fast you think their wheels must be off the pavement.. Bernie Dennis-Would our legal representative advise the CTC on acting on a non-agenda item? Bob Herrick-Under State law concerning the Ra1ph M.Brown Act,the Commission cannot act on an item that is not agendized and therefore this would have to be brought back at a future date for consideration by the Commission. V. ADJ�URNMENT Discussion of all items before the City Traf�ic Commission being complete, and there being no ' further requests for action under Oral Presentation, Chairman Yarger adjourned this session of the City Traf�'ic Commission to it's next regular meeting. Time of Adjournment was 5:23 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Phyllis Then Recording Secretary � File Name: October 9 i°