02-10-1993 - Minutes TC � ?:�
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CITY OF ORANGE
MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING
CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION
DATE OF MEETING: February 10, 1993
ROLL CALL: PRESENT - COMMISSIONERS: D. YARGER, J. FORTIER, N. HOWER,
B. LEMING, F. SCIARRA
PRESENT - STAFF: B. DENNIS, C. GLASS, D. ALLENBACH,
P. THEN
ABSENT - STAFF: LT. E. TUNSTALL
I. APPROVAL OF MINUTES
January 13, 1993 - APPROVE as published by Recording Secretary
MOTION: B. Leming
SECOND: J. Fortier
AYES: Unanimous
II. CONSENT CALENDAR
1. Request for the reduction in length of red curb on the south side of Palm Ave. westerly
of Grand Ave.
Wanda Marta
1210 E. Madison Ave.
Orange, CA 92666
RECOMN�NDATION: That the CTC, by Motion, APPROVE the request.
MOTION: D. Yarger
SECOND: F. Sciarra
AYES: Unanimous
III. CONSIDERATION ITEMS
A. Request for the installation of a 4'Way STOP control device at the intersection of
Rancho Santiago Blvd, and Bond Ave. (Continued from October 1992, CTC meeting.)
Larry Pore
645 N. Ranchroad Dr.
Orange, CA 92669
Oral presentation is based on the written staff report, please refer to your copy.
Chairman Yarger opened the public hearing for the following discussion of this request.
Larry Pore - I spoke before you at the October meeting and I expressed my concerns at
that time. Since then I'd like to express some additional concerns and perhaps ask if you
have looked at the intersection personally. (distributes drawing of intersection)
Lane width for northbound Rancho Santiago the street is 64 ft. wide, if you compare that
to the intersection of Tustin/Collins which is only 56 ft. wide; if you go to Bond Ave. west
it's 60 ft. wide and again Collins is only 56 ft.; the intersection north is 40 ft. wide and
obviously Bond east is 47.5 ft. wide. This is an extremely wide intersection.
We have bike trails north and southbound on Rancho Santiago, we also have a bike trail
on the north leg of Rancho Santiago the west side of the street. If you go to the end of
that bike trail there is a small STOP sign and I mentioned before that occasionally
motorists come to this sign and stop.
There are 2 bus stops; one being on the northwest corner, and there is another bus stop on
the southeast where children are let off quite frequently and are crossing the streets. On
the south side of the intersection there is a crosswalk but on the north side where the
children get off the bus there is no crosswalk and you have to go at an angle to get across
the street. On the south leg of Bond east side there is no sidewalk but yet there is a
crosswalk.
On the northeast corner there is a large utility pole and a retaining wall which restrict
vision. I think we should give equal consideration to this intersection as you would any
other intersection in the city that has requested installation of a 4-Way STOP sign.
Obviously these 4-Way STOP signs have come before you in the past and I say to you that
there are intersection in the city that are substantially less traveled than this one where the
4-Way STOP has been approved and installed.
We have substantial civil liability that we feel we are exposing the city to and we are
bringing this to your attention. I know of one claim that has been filed against the city
following an accident at this location.
In addition to the need for the STOP sign here I feel the city needs to put in some
channelization also. I have a list of people who live in the community who want the
STOP sign and also there are some letters attached which support this request.
Bernie Dennis - Are the 2 people that live on the northwest and the southeast corner in the
audience today?
Larry Pore -No
Bernie Dennis -Have you talked with them about this?
Larry Pore - No I have not personally talked with the residents of the northwest corner
about this but I gave them a letter with my phone number, however, I have not had any
contact with them. I have had conversations with the Korean Church on the southeast
corner.
Chairman Yarger-I don't recall Rancho Santiago being 64 ft. wide for any great length. I
think it's a regular width street and then opens to 64 ft. adjacent to the church for about
100 yards. and then it narrows again to a regular street width.
Bernie Dennis - For may years Rancho Santiago was classified as a secondary highway
and was downgraded, by request, in conjunction with development of the tract on the
northwest corner. This was downgraded to a commuter roadway, based on the fact that
Hewes paralleled it on the west and you were going to have Crawford Canyon/Loma
paralleling it on the east. The City and the County agreed to this downgrading, but as the
street was in existence and as the development had occurred for many years you have a
variety of may different street widths on the street.
Chairman Yarger - Closed the public hearing and initiated discussion between the
Commissioner's prior to a vote.
Vice-Chairman Fortier - I'd like to have a report from any Commissioner's that have
personally driven through the area observing traff'ic conditions and patterns.
Commissioner Sciarra - I went out to this intersection on three separate days between the
hours of 7-7:30 a.m. and on only one trip did I see any traf�'ic backed-up on the west leg
of Bond, and it took 2-3 minutes for 5 cars to clear. Personally, I didn't see a problem
with the utility pole on the northeast corner it didn't obstruct my view at all and I had a
clear view of course looking south. In all three trips I had absolutely no diff'iculty
crossing Rancho Santiago from Bond Ave.
Commissioner Lemin� - I made a couple of trips during the evening between 5:30-6:00,
and it was dark at the time. I didn't see alot of cars trying to come out of Bond, probably
because it was time for the reverse move back into the tracts. Traf�ic seemed to moving
on Rancho Santiago very well.
What school drops of� children at this intersection? I did receive a call from an area
resident who mentioned all these children that were standing on that corner, but yet from
the staf� report and from other Commissioner's who were out there, we have never
observed any children out there.
From a volume perspective this intersection doesn't meet the warrants for a 4-Way STOP.
Bernie Dennis - In conjunction with the development of the tract on the northwest corner
a condition of approval on that development was that a Type 1 bike trail be installed. A
Type 1 bike trail is "o�" the street. This facility was funded either in total, or in part, by
either the County of Orange or by some State agency who had funding available for bike
trails. One of the agencies requirements were that we sign the trail according to what
was, at that point in time, their standards. Their standards at that point in time required
that you have a STOP as you approach the intersection, with the intent being that you get
off your bike and walk across the street. They achieved this with the miniaturized STOP
sign, frankly if it's not there I don't know where else we would put it. We do not
custornarily do that type of sign installation in bike lanes.
Chairman Yarger - I made many trips through the intersection at various hours of the day
and I honestly never saw any traff'ic problem at that intersection where anyone was held up
for any length of time. I've been out there when there wasn't another car on Rancho
Santiago at all, I've approached the intersection from 6:45 a.m. making left turns onto
Bond and never saw any traffic to speak of. I went out here during the afternoon hours
and it's a street where perhaps it's easy to go over the posted speed limit but most of the
motorist seem to stay within the 85th percentile and the traff'ic isn't even heavy at that
time.
Vice-Chairman Fortier - When staff was out conducting turn counts what were your
observations as far as traffc being able to cross Ranch Santiago?
Dave Allenbach - I witnessed no excessive delays while I was conducting turn counts and
I would guess that the average wait for motorists entering Rancho Santiago from Bond
was about 15 seconds, and this was between 7:30-8:30 a.m., the morning peak hour.
RECOMIV�NDATION: That the CTC, by Motion, DENY the request.
MOTION: N. Hower
SECOND: J. Fortier
AYES: Unanimous
Chairman Yarger - The City Council will have final approval of this request and members
of the audience may attend that meeting.