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09-11-1996 - Minutes TC ! ` CITY OF ORANGE CITY TRAFFIC CUMMISSI4N Minutes of a Regular Meeting: September 11. 1996 I. OPENING A. Pledge of Allegiance To The Flag t�cr�c�c�c�c�sc�c�c�sc�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�cr�c�c�c�c�c�c�c:� B. ROLL CALL: Present-Commissioners: D.Yaxger,J. Fortier,J. Gibson,F. Sciarra Present- Sta.ff• H.Bahadori, C. Glass,W.Winthers,D.Allenbach,P. Then Absent-Staff: Sgt. J.Hudson c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�cr�c�c�c�c�c�sc�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�sc�c�c�c�c�c�c�c�sc�cr�c�c�c�c�c�c�sc� C. APPROVAL OF MINUTES Minutes of August 14, 1996 CTC meeting. RECOMMENDATION • Approve as published by the Recording Secretary. MOTION: J. Fortier � SECOND: F. Sciarra AYES: J. Fortier,F. Sciarra,D.Yarger ABSTAIN: J. Gibson D. ITEMS TO BE CONTINUED OR WITHDRAWN: None II. C�NSENT CALENDAR A. Request for a bus loading zone on Palm Dr. adjacent to Portola Middle School. Susan Belenardo,Principal Portola Middle School 270 N. Palm Dr. Orange, CA There was no discussion on tlus item. RECOMMENDATION: Approve MOTION: J. Fortier SECOND: F. Sciarra AYES: Unanimous � Tape �CTC-96.09 of this Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714/744-5536) in this regard, some advance notice would be appreciated. � Minutes of a Re�ular Meetin�-�<<y Traf�ic Commission-September 11 1996 Page 2 II. CONSENT CALENDAR (Continued) B. Request for red curb markings adjacent to the commercial driveway on Greenleaf Ave. easterly of Orange-Olive Rd. Cheryl Clapper � 2707 N. Dunbar St. Orange, CA 92865 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report,please refer to your copy. Chairman Yarger opened the public hearing for the following discussion of this request. William Snvder, 2681 Orange-Olive Rd. - Owner of the shopping center. We're in favor of the westerly section of red curb because its 20 ft. and parked cars do obscure vision for vehicles entering and exiting the center. On the east section we're in favor of a 10-15 ft. red curb because apartments across the street use that a.rea for parking at night,without it they will be parking in our lot and that would probably impede the sweeping and keeping order in the center. So I'd like to request that be cut down to 10-15 ft. of red curb. Chairman Yarger -You're ta.lking about the area where we were going to put in 25 ft. of red curb and you want to see it cut down to 10-15 ft. Dave Allenbach-The motorists view from that direction is not quite as acute and I think 15 ft. would be sufficient. Hamid Bahadori, Citv Traffic Engineer - The red curb restriction adjacent to a driveway because of the clear vision zone cannot be decided arbitrarily. We either have to go by the Sta,te standard which is 7%z second minimum sight distance requirement which we will not meet, or we have to go by the standa.rd that is set by the Commission on prior occasions. Chairman Yarger-So it's 25 ft. or none at all? Hamid Bahadori -It's 25 ft. or a lot more. Chervl Clapper, 2707 N. Dunbar St. - Thank you for looking into this for me. It will really help with the children that frequent the store here. Chairman Yarger closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for further discussion and/or a motion. Commissioner Fortier - Due to the restriction I make the motion we insta.11 these vision zones and that 25 ft. of red curb on the east side in compliance with State standa.rds. 1VIOTION: J. Fortier SECOND: J. Gibson AYES: Unanimous � Tape #CTC-96.09 of this Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714/744-5536) in this regard, some advance notice would be appreciated. ' Minutes of a Re�ular Meetin�� .�v Traf�ic Commission-September 11 1996 Page 3 • III. CONSIDERATION ITEMS A. Request for turn restrictions on Meats Ave. at Shaffer St. Stuart B. Hindemit 1761 N. Shaffer St. Orange, CA 92865 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report,please refer to your copy. Chairman Yarger opened the public hearing for the following discussion of this item. Ton�nn, 1733 N. Shaffer St. - In favor of restrictions. (Has chart of neighborhood he refers to during his presentation.) Due to these signals all traffic is funneled to our street where there are no restrictions of any type. The 7-9 a.m. traf�c flow is incredible because there are no STOP signs or police enforcement keeping them from using it. Resident of corner house has to have police escort to back out of his driveway there is so much traffic. We want the street barricaded of�allowing right turns in and out only, and makes it into a cul-de-sac. I spoke with the Fire Dept. and they don't have a problem with barricading off the street. If you don't want to barricade the street put in two STOP signs here and here and there are no crosswalks into the park. There is a crosswalk down here that aligns all kids into Taft School with a crossing guard but there is nothing here to get them across Shaffer. J. Clavton Moore, 2001 N. Shaffer St. - Oppose blocking off street at Meats. We do have a speeding problem and the police need to be here writing tickets,that's what we need. Chairman Yarger-In the City of Orange we have 12 motorcycle officers. The police cars you see are not designed to catch speeders, the motors are designed for this function. We do not have 12 motors on the street all at one time due to the fact they work a shift from 8 a.m.to 6 p.m. so they are sta.ggered and unfortunately the City of Orange is almost 25 square miles and if you visualize how many streets are in the City of Orange these 8 to 9 motors that are out on the street at one time cannot cover 25 square miles at one time, they are going to different sections of the city as often as they can to monitor some of the hot spots, one such location is yours. Unfortunately if there is a bad accident or some other type of emergency they have to respond to that call. If is not possible to have a motor assigned to your street every day of the week, I won't kid you, if you don't think there are enough motors in the City of Orange then if I were you I would sit down and write the Police Chief a letter requesting him to ma.ke application to put more motors on the street in the City of�range. Mike Heruiessv, 1802 N. Shaffer St. - In favor of tum restrictions. We went along with the suggestion from Chuck Glass that we put in some type of traffic control at Meats because you didn't believe there were that many cars coming down the str�et that fast, they do every da.y. The volume of traf�'ic mentioned earlier is too light for what is really going onIt's unlimited speed on that street,motorists know there are no police on the street. Police were here one day after a CTC meeting and then again 3 other times with the speed trailer that displays motorists speeds but it was a joke. If you put a cop there every day you pay for the cop just by having them there collecting enough revenue. '�' Tape #CTC-96.09 of this Traf�ic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714/744-5536) in this regard, some advance notice would be appreciated. • Minutes of a Regular Meetin„g tv Traf�'ic Commission-September 11 1996 _ Page 4 , IlI. CQNSIDERATION ITEMS (Continued) Chairman Yar�er-The City of Orange does not get 100%of the funds that are collected from a traffic citation. As a matter of fact the City gets 20% and remaining 80% goes to the County. So it is a myth that we can collect enough money from citations to pay for t11e motor officers. Hopefully the City is getting financially stronger that it was a few years ago and maybe the budget can afford more but I was serious when I suggested tha.t you write the Police Chief a letter requesting more motors to help control speeds in the City. Ann Jensvold 505 E. Glendale - Oppose blocking Meats Ave. I realize that tra.ffic has increased in the 30 years I have lived at my home and most especially the traf�ic coming down Shaffer and turns onto Glendale on its way to Taft School. Every moming at 8:00 traffic is heavy gomg that way. If you close off the north end of Shaffer at Meats then you will impact the school, which I think is negative, and if you close off Shaffer you impact Cambridge, and I'm curious what the Fire Dept. will do when responding to emergencies. Chairman Yarger-You're absolutely conect. In the past when they have made some of these deterrents of getting in and out of neighborhoods you have helped your neighborhood a little bit but the impact to areas around you a.nd especially in areas around schools has ma,de it more unbearable in those areas. Bill Feliciano 2009 N. Shaffer St. -In favor of closing Sha.i�er at Meats. With the increase in the trai�'ic within the overall County the traffic on my street alone has increased at least 10 fold and people hit that corner in the morning coming from the east, hang a left, and punch it. By the time they get to my house (6�' house down) they are cooking. When I back out of my driveway and I want to go southbound by the time I'm up to 10-15 MPH I usually have some yahoo in my trunk, and they pass me on the right where other cars are supposed to park, so if I'm turning into my driveway by the time I'm starting to turn my wheels someone is passing me on the right, it happens all the time.You found it wise to insta.11 some type of solution at the Tustin/Briardale intersection most likely because you had prob�ems simila.r to ours, the people were coming through that tract as a cut through. I don't think there is a problem with the Fire Dept. they can do anything they want to do in terms of right and left turns e�ting the neighborhoods,there's nobody from the Fire Dept. here opposing this measure. Chairman Yar�er - Say that we close off Meats then where you say all the tra.f�ic is coming from(east)instead of coming down Shaffer they will come down Cambridge. Now we have a school there with young children, so who do we protect, children of the kids? What neighborhood do we protect, you can't protect them all. We're trying to come up with a solution but you can't put up bamcades at every street corner in the City of Orange it won't work. What you're proposing to do cuts off access of Shaffer for those residents of Shaffer St. north of Meats Ave. they have just as much a right to drive that street as you do. � Tape #CTC-96.09 of this Traf�'ic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714/744-5536) in this regard, some advance notice would be appreciated. ' 1Vlinutes of a Re�ular Meetin�� _tv Traffic Commission-September 11, 1996 Page 5 . III. CONSIDERATION ITEMS (Continued) Stuart Hindemit 1871 N. Shaf�er St. -The problem at this point is the recommendation from the February meeting was actually from the City Council as far as the barricade,that was not a suggestion by the neighborhood. There is a problem with speed based on the 40 MPH average in a 25 MPH zone, 15 MPH over the posted speed limit on a regular basis is a problem. If the barricade doesn't work something has to be done. In February we requested that there be crosswalks, speed bumps, STOP signs, al1 of which was tumed down because that's not how you control traff'ic. The first street circling our neighborhood Cambridge, Orange-Olive Rd., Taft and Meats are all larger streets with 35 MPH zones so I don't think there would be a big problem having traffic, however it gets there, go back down Cambridge because most of the traffic we see in the morning is going to and from the school. I think St. Norbert's Church is a source of the problem. Chairman Yarger - We went back through our minutes and we cannot find any such recommendation being made by the CTC. We may have discussed some possible suggestions but I don't think any firm recommendations were made. Chuck Glass, Traffic Engineer - To set the record straight I directed the discussion on tha.t request but there was no recommendation, there was a suggestion and perhaps there is real confusion between the two. The issue before us at that meeting was the insta.11ation of `All-Way' STOP's, crossing guards, etc. Those requests were acted on, and in the course of our investigations we found an imbalance of northbound versus southbound traf�ic volumes and we threw out the suggestion, not recommendation, that if there was a desire to reduce the volume this may be one alternative. If there were a recommendation there would have been action taken on the recommendation. Stuart Hindemit - What other recommendations are there? Let's get away from the suggestions and see if we can get to the recommendations because I think we all agree there is a problem and either we raise the speed limit so we can say everyone can go 35 MPH or do something to really deal with this and get it back down to 25 MPH. Robert Bergmann, 2040 N. Shaffer St. -In favor of street closure. I understand that much of law or policy of law comes from sta.tistics that come from an actual accident and so far we've been fortunate to have few accidents on our street. It se�ms not only do we have a lot of children on the street we have a very busy park with a lot of sport events. Do you have a surveillance camera or a device that indicates your license is being photographed as you are speeding? Is there some other creative solution to inhibit people from speeding? When they saw the speed trailer it seemed to temper their speed somewhat. Chairman Yarg,er That type of operation works very well in Europe, I'm not sure it's been approved for use here or not. Over there if you're speeding you get a citation in the mail with a picture of your license plate. '�` Tape #CTC-96.09 of this Traf�ic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recozding Secretary at (714/744-5536) in this regard, some advance notice would be appreciated. ` Minutes of a Re�ular Meetin�- _..�v Traffic Commission-September 11.1996 Pa,ge 6 � III. CONSIDERATION ITEMS (Continued) Dan Grau,pensperser, 2029 N. Shaffer St. -In favor of street closure. I don't believe Shaffer is designed to be a thoroughfa.re for morning and afternoon traffic. I think Cambridge was designed for it, Orange-Olive and Glassell were also designed for that. Most of the cars in the morning don't live anywhere near where I live, they live in another part of Orange or another city, and they use that street to get to work in the morning. The changes that have been ma.de by the City to the streets have channeled people onto my street. Apparently something has been done in the past has af�ected me and I was never involved in the decision to do that. As far as Cambridge and the school being there,they have a crossing guard, a 4-lane street, many times there is a motor officer at the intersection writing cita.tions, and that helps to slow people ao�. Mary Widdows, 1740 N. Shaffer St. - In favor of street closure. I think a STOP sign would be the most cost effective thing we could do at ShafFer/Glenda.le. Shaffer Park was used more this year than ever before, people need to be able to walk from Glendale across to the Park. There's no way to get over there, plus there is no place to park so people park on the side streets. Robert Sumers 729 E. Glendale Ave -I oppose barricading the street at Meats. I agree there is a speeding problem on Shaffer. As a professional driver I have seen streets closed off and what happens when a street is barricaded before long someone drives into it and pretty soon they start moving it around and get it on the wrong side of the street. Why can't we ha.ve a �TOP sign at Glendale or ane street above there where the fire trucks come out and need the STOP sign that way we would stop that racing on the street. Perhaps a crosswalk for the school children would also help. Carmen Saldana 1903 N. Shaffer St - Opposed to barricading the street at Meats. I live at the corner directly across from the Fire Sta.tion. Of all the residents here today we are probably the most impacted by the traffic and people going to the Park, and I knew that would happen when I bought the house. I do think the traffic is very high and there is speeding but I don't think blocking off the street will help. I lived at another place where the street was closed off and it never worked. I think we need to educate the people driving on that street not to drive so fast, but a STOP sign is inappropriate, it's more of an education and law enforcement issue versus having other bamers around. Chairman Yarger closed the public hearing and returned the item to the CTC for fxcrther discussion and/or a motion. Chairman Yarger - There are a lot of problems in this neighborhood. STOP signs are not designed to slow traffic. It might not be a bad idea in your case except you have staggered streets. Glendale, for example, the way it's staggered trying to figure how to insta.11 STOP signs is interesting how do you install the sign without blocking access from anyone's residence? To put a STOP sign in front of the Fire Dept. with no streets running either east or westerly there is no design for that type of installation and I don't know what the legality would be. If this map is close in scale, how could you insta.11 STOP signs on Glendale for north and south without creating potential for accidents? � Tape #CTC-96.09 of this Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714/744-5536) in this regard, some advance notice would be appreciated. . Minutes of a Regular Meetin� y Traffic Commission-September 11 1996 pa� , III. CONSIDERATION ITEMS (Continued) ' Chuck Glass -Any additional STOP's on Shaffer would have to be what we call an `All Way' STOP. Glendale Ave. is a public street, there is a cul-de-sac end on the west side of Shaffer that is a private street (Glendale Place). We would stop the public intersection which would be a `3-Way' or `All VVay' STOP at Glendale/Shaffer. The reason we don't have crosswalks crossing Shaf�er St. at Glendale is because we don't feel it is in the best safety interest of the public to have a crosswallc across a street that is not controlled either by a STOP sign or a traffic signal. There have been several studies performed in this regaxd and it was found that typically a pedestrian would stop and use prudence before entering the street to make sure the crass-traffic is cleared when there is not a crosswalk there. Where a crosswalk exists,the pedestrian tends to think they are protected by those two stripes of paint when they are not. A crosswalk is not designed as a safety device and you will never hear staff call it that, a crosswallc is a channeliza.tion device to move a pedestrian from one logical crossing to another, it's considered an extension of the sidewalk. This is a legal crossing unless otherwise signed at all intersections whether there is a crosswalk there or not it is an impled crossing. We studied these intersections 7 months ago and based on our wanants they did not meet any of the criteria for the insta.11ation of`All Way' STOP's at either of the intersections. We could insta.11 them based on our direction, however, we don't recommend them. Chairman Sciarra - The main problem is that there is too many cars, which is universal in Southern California. Putting up a STOP sign looks good, but what would happen? Someone mentioned earlier that they had to have an escort in order to get out of their driveway. Can you imagine with the number of cars on this street if you�put in a STOP sign you will have a queue of cars and you'll never get out of your driveway. I don't see how a STOP sign will solve this problem. There is a speed prablem and the only thing I can see to help that is to have more police enforcement as possible. Chairman Yar�er -What type of deterrent device would you use on Shaffer and Meats if we did restrict left and right turns? Why type of device construction would that be if we restricted westerly left-turns easterly right tums and southerly no entrance into Shaffer, why type of device would be installed? Chuck Glass - Your options of turn restriction could be anything from paint and signs to physical turn restrictions such as diverters, i.e. `pork-chops' a raised median type device. The only thing I would say is between those two ends of the spectrum the one that is self-enforcing, the physical type of restriction is much preferred from Trai�'ic Engineering's aspect and I believe probably from law enforcement aspect also other than those devices that requires enforcement to operate the way intended. I would hesitate to estima.te the cost of a physical restriction at this point because we would have to look as some other aspects such as drainage flow and that type of thing and what you see on a plan view of simply putting in an island sometimes could involve a rather substantial cost of building a storm drain facilities or things of that nature. Chairman Yarger - What about a "temporary" device such as the one we used over on Adams Ave.? � Tape #CTC-96.09 of this Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714/744-5536) in this regard, some advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a ReQular Meetin�-�,�iv Traffic Commission-September 11 1996 Page 8 " III. CONSIDERATION ITEMS (Continued) Chuck Glass -If the CTC were going to recommend some sort of a trial restriction we would probably recommend a similar approach that we took on Briardale Ave. and Adams Ave. and that was a temporary 6 month trial basis to be reviewed and that a determination be made at 6 months as to whether or not the device be made permanent. Hamid Bahadori, Citv Traffic Engineer - I would like to bring to your and the audiences attention the subtleties of traf�'ic and how the traffic will re-distribute if there is a demand and if you try to force them out of what the motorists believe to be a natural route for their trip purpose. Any possible turn restriction at the intersection of Shaffer/Meats at least appears to have a great potential for diverting traffic onto Cambridge, Grove, Buckeyewood, and Glendale and we will have problems with those streets if we do not look at the overall picture. If you focus only on a turn restriction at a single intersection we may potentially create other problems on other streets where problems currently don't eacist. Commissioner Gibson -In February I voted in favor of the STOP signs and the crosswalk and maintain that choice. I believe the `A11:Way' STOP signs at Glendaie/Grove and the crosswalk would be appropriate and if they were insta.11ed they could deter the fast commuter traffic that is no heavy on Shaffer St. Vice Chairman Fortier - I oppose insta.11ation of STOP signs at off-set intersections because motorists get very confused about who has the right-of-way. Chairman Yarger - I'd like to make a motion that we put up a temporary turn device on the corner of Shaffer and Meats no right turn easterly to go south on Shaffer; no left turns going westerly on Meats to go south on Shaf�er; and no straight through traff'ic from the north leg of Shaffer north of Meats to go south on Shaffer. Commissioner Gibson -May we add a time limit of 6 months and if that does not work out or meet the needs of the neighborhood that we come back and consider the STOP signs and the crosswalk? Chairman Yarger-I have no objection to that inclusion as long as sta.ff could come up with an appropriate design of STOP sign installation for Grove. MOTION: D.Yarger SECOND: J. Gibson AYES: Gibson,Yarger NOES: Fortier, Sciarra Motion does not carry. Vice Chairman Fortier - I agree there is a problem here but I can't agree to this insta.11ation when I know it will impact the next street over. If you install these barriers whax keeps the motorists from using Shaffer in the afternoon when the reverse move would be legal? So they would still have the same problem except it would be in the afternoon hours only. Chairman Yar�er - People going norkh on Shaffer making a right turn on Meats, it wouldn't slow them down at all. But the people wouldn't be able to make the left turn from ShafFer onto Meats. � Tape#CTC-96.09 of this Traffic Corrunission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714/744-5536) in this regard, some advance notice would be appreciated. � Minutes of a ReQular Meetin�-...�v Traffic Commission-September 11 1996 Page 9 ' III. CONSIDERATION ITEMS (Continued} Wayne Winthers. Asst. City AttorneX - Any time the city does anything that is not within a sta.tute or within a regulation then we do hold ourselves out to more liability. That is the first standard pointed out to us in Court and they are going to ask our City Traffic Engineer, "Why was this set up this way, haven't you ever read the Department of Transportation Handbook that says you don't use this type of device at this type of a location?" And it will be our Traffic Engineer's responsibility to respond to that in Court, and when its determined that the installation was not within the code or regulations more times than not we'll be open to liability in those types of matters. Hamid Bahadori - There is a speed problem that is well documented. We have an 85�' Percentile of 40 MPH on a street posted for 25 MPH. However, as far as the street pattem I think we have not identified the problem because we have not looked at where this traffic is coming from and where the tra.ff�c is going. The tota.l 24-hour volume is within reasonable range of a street of these characteristics and the only alternative we have studied is the request from the residents for a turn restriction at Shaffer/Meats. If you want, as an alternative, we can do a complete study like we did at Briardale. We did not have money in the budget for the Briardale study,that study was partially funded by the development on Taft and they paid for our consultant fees and the data gathering services and we simply do not ha.ve the capability at this time to spend close to $30,000 to reevaluate the whole area altogether. That is an altemative you may wish to consider and the City Council may direct us to perform this study,they can authorize funds for a specific project of that type. Chairman Yarger - I would go to the City Council then and see if they have the money to conduct a fuli traf�'ic study of the neighborhood. Commissioner Sciarra - I recommend that we deny the request for the installation of tum restrictions on Meats Ave. and Shaffer St. MOTION: F. Sciarra SECOND: D. Yarger AYES: Fortier, Sciarra,Yarger NOES: Gibson Motion is carried B. Request to adopt a policy and procedure to process street name change requests. Traffic Engineering Division City of Orange Chairman Yarger -Do we need to go over any more on this item since we have a couple of more months to maybe get that put together? Chuck Glass - I am prepared to go over the item with wha.tever background information you would like. What I would be looking for at this point is what has been presented to you in the Commission item, the cover report and the recommended policies and procedures document would be to get from the Commission any input you may have. �' Tape #CTC-96.09 of this Tra�c Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714/744-5536) in this regard, some advance notice would be appreciated. Minutes of a Regular Meetin� ,.y Traf�ic Commission-September 11.1996 Page 10 III. CONSIDERATION ITEMS (Continued) RECOMMENDATION: Continue until the October 9`�, 1996 City Traffic Commission Chuck Glass -With that in mind I would like each Commissioner to review the documents and pencil out your comments and submit them to me in advance and I will make them part of the next package. MOTION: D.Yarger SECOND: F. Sciarra AYES: Unanimous IV. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS Hamid Bahadori, Citv Z'raffic En�ineer-Reported that iai last month's meeting we ha.d the discussion on the recruitment of the new Commissioner's appointment and it was suggested that Mr. Fortier will be serving as a Commissioner at large and we will have a new representative for the School District. The information provided by the City Clerk is that it cannot be handled administratively that is why they have opened the recruitment and the deadline is September 19�, 1996. V. ORAL PRESENTATION None. VI. ADJOURNMENT Discussion of today's Agenda items for the CTC being complete, and there being no further requests � for action under Oral Presenta.tions, the Chairman adjourned this session of the CTC. The next regularly scheduled meeting of the CTC will be held October 9`�, 1996. Respectfully submitted,. Phyllis Then Recording Secretary City Traffic Commission TRAFFIC ENGINEERING DIVISION DEPAR.TMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS CITY OF ORANGE 300 E. CHAPMAN AVE. ORANGE, cA 92866-1591 PHONE: 714/744-5536 FAx: 714/744-6961 File Name: September 1996-CTC Minutes (Disk#11/A-Then) � Tape #CTC-96.09 of this Traffic Conunission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at (714/744-5536) in this regard, some advance notice would be appreciated.