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10-13-1999 - Minutes TC � L:�•: CITY OF ORANGE �`��� .:: �:�;�,. ��ti�. � CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION r��---������� � ����� Ivlinutes of a Regular Meeting: October "13, 1999 I. OPENING Ae Flag Pledge B. Roll Call: Present- Commissioners: D.Yarger,).Fortier, F.Petronella, W.Poutsma, F.Sciarra Present-Staff: - H.Bahadori, W.Winthers, Sgt. B.Green, C.Glass, D.Allenbach, P.Then Co Approval of Minutes: September 8, 1999-Approve as published by the Recording Secretary MOTION: D. Yarger � SECOND: F. Petronella AYES: Unanimous D. Items To Be Continued or Withdrawn Consideration Item #C is deleted from the Agenda. II. CONSENT CALEN DAR A. Request for the installation of red curb markings for the driveways that service 1539 W. Orange Grove Ave. �ohn Vanderschee 1539 W. Orange Grove Ave., Unit B Orange CA 92868-1114 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report, please refer to your copy. Chairman Yarger opened the public hearing for the following discussion on this request: lohn Vanderschee, 1539 W. Orange Grove Ave - It's a driveway into an industrial complex and it's fairly busy and even though it's a short street its very busy so when you're exiting this area and there are parked vehicles on either side you have to pull out so far forward to see oncoming traffic that the vehicle is at that time in a hazardous situation. ACTION: Approve the installation of 20 ft. of red curb markings on both sides of each driveway at 1539 W. Orange Grove Ave. MOTION: D. Yarger SECOND: W. Poutsma AYES: U nan i mous Tape#CTC-99.07 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. � Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714) 744-5534 i,n this regard,advance notice is appreciated. �� �■1�Printed on Recycled Paper � Minutes of a Regular Meeting-City Traffic Commission-October 13, 1999 Page 2 B. Request for the installation of a "CARGO'� loading zone and red curb markings on Struck Ave. at the driveway that services FORD OF ORANGE. Brian Hesketh FORD OF ORANGE 1350 W. Katella Ave. Orange CA 92867 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report, please refer to your copy. There was no discussion of this request. ACTION: Approve the installation of 30 ft. and 20 ft. of red curb markings easterly and westerly, respectively, of the driveway on Struck Ave. that services FORD OF ORANGE. Approve the installation of 60 ft. of yellow curb markings for a loading zone westerly of the subject driveway, immediately adjacent to the 20 ft. red curb markings. MOTION: D. Yarger SECON D: F. Sciarra AYES: Unanimous I11, CONSIDERATION ITEMS A.. Request for the installation of "All-Way" STOP signs at the intersections of Handy/Quincy and Handy/Monroe. City Council CITY OF ORANGE Oral presentation is based on the written staff report, please refer to your copy. Chairman �'arger opened the public hearing for the following drscussion of this item. Bud Trabold, 2548 E. Wilson Ave. — If necessary I am in favor of a STOP sign but speed humps are out, and I think 2 STOP signs are totally out of the picture. Based on the staff reporfi it reads "...none of these two intersections meet the city's minimum requirements for the installation of "All-Way" STOP signs." So I think we need to continue researching this and see if we can come up with something else. And of course part of the problem comes from closing several streets due to the freeway widening project. Ron Rust, 1129 N. Handy St. — I'm at the corner of Handy/Adams. I also have a letter in my possession that was passed out, that states that we were instrumental in getting the speed reduced to 25 MPH last year. As I recall 25 years ago when speaking with officers at the corner with radar equipment, at that time they were allowing 15 MPH over the speed limit, so in other words you had to be going 40 MPH before you would receive a cifiation. I don't know when they changed to 35 and then back to 25 MPH, because I don't recafl any change at all. There have been 2 fatalities on this street and there have been several more accidents. Tape#CTC-99.07 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. � Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714) 744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. �� �s �■h�Printed on Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting-City Traffic Commission-October 13, 1999 Page 3 Ronald Mullion, 2543 E. Iacaranda Ave. — I am opposed to the STOP signs. I have a signed piece of paper from some of the people who I ive on the 3 blocks off of Handy, most of these 81 people on those 3 blocks are opposed to the STOP signs or would like to see more Police enforcement. I agree that the speed limits get out of ha.nd but why punish all the people that live there and abide by the laws. If you establish more STOP signs you're only going to have more people racing from one STOP sign to the next, it is not going to solve the problem; it wi I I on(y frustrate the rest of the residents. - Tom Smith, 2225 E. Locust Ave. — I am in favor of the installation of the STOP signs. It is a hazardous condition out there. )ust about nightly my wife and I walk up Handy and I just about jumped out of my skin because of the car coming behind me, I thought it was going to come up over the curb and hit me and I know there's not only increased traffic volume but increased speed as well. Are STOP signs are inconvenient, you bet they are. There is a greater good to be had and that is the safefiy for the Handy St. residents. I'm a commercial insurance broker, and while I don't specialize in municipality insurance I can tell you it's just a matter of when the City is going to be sued and I ask this Commission to protect not only the citizens from a safety standpoint but also us taxpayer's from (itigation if the STOP signs don't go up. Mark Hanna, 1200 N. Handy St. — I am opposed to these STOP signs. I feel people are going to run the STOP sign just as they are going to speed, as was mentioned earlier, a sign cannot enforce the law. I don't think these signs will slow the traffic, only Police enforcement can do that. Leonard Stitz, 1166 N. Handy St. — I am in favor of the STOP signs. I too can testify that both the traffic volume and the speed have increased dramatically in the 21 years that I've been in Orange, and especially in the last 2-3 years. I don't know other than the convenience issues what argument we could put forth against STOP signs. We all like to be. unimpeded and if everyone drove at 25 MPH I would like it too, however, they don't. We tried to find a solution, the neighbors didn't like that idea in fact when they were soliciting opposition to the speed humps they suggested that maybe we should install STOP signs, and as we're not going to get speed humps immediately they are now suggesting that maybe we shouldn'fi have STOP signs either. I submifi that if you start to enforce the law and they begin to get citations for speeding they wifl have another argument against their right to speed, everyone wants to protect their right to go as fast as they want. The truth of the matter is that this is a safety issue and pedestrians, especially children and elderly don't have a fighting chance to get across that street. Chairman Yar�er — Asked if there was anyone in the audience who lives at one of the corner lots of either QuincylHandy or Monroe/Handy; there was none. Whoever lives in � these corner lots will find the noise and pollution unbelievable if these STOP signs are installed. Roy Rober�s, 2226 E. Locust Ave. — Most of my objections has been addressed. On Locust we also have a speed problem and it seems to me that if you're going to put in STOP signs � on Handy you should consider putting in STOP signs everywhere in the City because every street has this same problem. It seems to me you have to make sure the law is followed and give out citations. � Tape#CTC-99.07 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. � Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714) 744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. � �s ��I�Printed on Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting-City Traffic Commission-October 13, 1999 Page 4 Irma Lev�, 2441 E. Collins Ave. — I am in favor of the STOP signs. live at the corner of Collins/Handy and I have an "All-1Nay" STOP sign at my house too, the noise hasn't done us an.y harm yet. There is a problem on Handy. It's not a perception any longer, we hear the cars running up and down, and they burn rubber, exhibition of speed. We need a solution, we've been at this for over 2 years. We started this committee and have sent out letters asking people to serve on the committee and to give us a list of options to explore. We've been working very hard and now we're back to square one. There is a problem on Handy and I don't want to pay more taxes to have Police there because it's going to cost more money to the City of Orange to assign them at this location. I also work for a Police agency and you just don't have the resources to station them full time at corners like this and watch people drive up and down the street. Adding more police is not the solution. Russef Monroe 2505 E. Locust Ave. — I am in favor of the STOP signs. I live at the corner of Handy/Locust. I have been 4-5 years trying to get something done about the increasing speeds. We appeared before you and received approva) for the speed hump installation, � � we went to the City Council and received their approval for these humps, and then it was back to square one because one of the Councilmembers was contacted by people who were not Handy St. residents, they were in the neighborhood but not on Handy St., they � were not part of the 86t" percentile that signed in favor of speed humps. We formed an ad hoc committee, of which I was a member, and we have met about 5 times trying to solve any speed control issues that we could. We're willing to work with everyone to resolve this problem and at our last meeting we finally agreed with staff that STOP signs was about the only alternative that we do have in order not to affect the Fire Dept. response. The Police Dept. has been terrific, I understand there are 38 other streets in the City who have requested increased enforcement, these people have done a wonderful job on our behalf on Handy St. but the solution is still not there. The speeds have still increased, Sg�. Green has reported to our ad hoc committee that unlike the initial citations which were concerning a high percentage of the local residents, the local residents have finally got the rr�essage. But now it's the through traffic from outside the area and consequently the average speed on the citations has gone up since then. I believe STOP signs are the only alternative that we can have. Police enforcement is not answer because they can only enforce for so long and they have limited resources that can be assigned to this type of activity, they have to respond to other calls. Nick Arhontes, 2116 E. Wilson Ave. — I support the interim installation of STOP signs as a fact finding study for staff. I think we need good data for once and all. I think bringing fihat information back for public review and discussion is a good thing to do prior to taking any further action. We are having severe impacts of traffic due to the SR-55 Fwy. and the Tustin St. projects. We don't need more laws and regulations, we should enforce existing ones; and I'd also like to advocate that the Commission be proactive in a manner that allows the fees collected from fines in this area to be used for supporting enforcement in this area instead of being diverted for other uses, so it's more of a pay as you go type , program for those that want to go faster than the posted speed limit. Tape#CTC-99.07 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. � Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714) 744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. � �y �■1=Printed on Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting-City Traffic Commission-October 13, 1999 Page 5 Micki Bernat, 2441 E. Locust Ave. — I support these STOP signs. The corner of Locust/Handy where I live has been fihe "Indy 500" for close to the last 5 years. A 25 MPH sign went up about 3 blocks from Katella/Handy and I noticed that people would race up to that sign and from there on out they were (ike Mario Andretti, they had 8-9 blocks to get down to Collins and it was used just that way. Recently somebody came to my house addressing the issue of speed humps who was not in favor of them and they asked for my support in getting it all thrown out, and suggested that there were just too many retired people spending too much time looking out their windows. My bedroom faces Handy St. and it's particularly bad at night. I don't have any children or grandchildren but my neighbor does and { know he is very concerned for their safety, and I applaud my neighbor for speaking up about what should be done to ensure their safety in the neighborhood, and for doing a job that I as a resident should also have done. There was a letter that just recent(y came out suggesting that 25 MPH is an unreasonable speed for reasonable people �o go, well when your child gets hit by a car how reasonable would that 10 MPH have been? How reasonable would that STOP sign be? When we just can't get across the street because we're not as young as we used to be, then how important is it? Basil Reyes, 1192 Handy St. — The traffic is pretty heavy, I live 3 houses from Hoover and for me to get out of the garage is difficult sometimes because the traffic is so heavy. We need to do anything to slow this traffic downe BiIB Lannin�, 2632 E. Adams Ave. — At the time this speed hump thing got really hot we formed an ad hoc committee call.ed fihe "Citizens for the Preservation of the Presidential Housing Community," not to be confused with the "Handy 49",: this included the 805 people that we canvassed; 92% at the time said they did not want speed humps, 7.8% said they would like them. In the process of talking to neighbors and asking if they had any alternative suggestions to speed humps the only thing that was identified with any frequency at all was additional enforcement, 25% wanted more enforcement and 35% said they would be willing to put up with STOP signs on Handy. That means 65% did nofi feel that way. As you probably know we had a meeting with the City in this regard and at the last one staff was opposed to installing STOP signs and they had some good reasons; #1 the federal guidelines doesn't recommend it and they 3-4 other ones, they preferred the diversion of traffic off Katella and Collins during peak traffic hours and they advance their arguments in the staff report, however, at the end they recommend the installation of the signs. I don't know if this is a political compromise or what it is and I'm nofi saying if I'm in favor of or opposed. to the signs, it's probably as much as anyone is going to get on Handy St. because I don't think we're going to go for any type of restrictive mechanical devices like speed humps, mini-circles or any other thing on thafi street. I'm wilfing to give the signs a try but you do know that anything you put in there has to be temporary because the City Council will not make a final decision on that unti) we have a public hearing and that is in the minutes of the City Council meeting. Tap�e#CTC-99.07 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. �i , Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714) 744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. - �� �I�Printed on Recycled Paper Minutes of a IZegular Meeting-City Traffic Commission-October 13, 1999 Page 6 Kay Perkins, 2543 E. Locust Ave. — I'm just east of Monroe Ave. off the Handy intersection. I'm neither for nor against the STOP signs. My concern is our street from Handy to Hart has 18 children but I see too many people using the side streets as a way to bypass the STOP sign. I really would like for them to slow down, but I don't want to see this traffic coming down my street. We're already getting more and more cars on that street and I can see that they would make a run for either Wanda or Collins on our street and that really worries me. Marvin Kin�, 960 N. Clinton St. — I'm at the intersection of Locust/Clinton which is '/2 block west of Handy St. My concern is not with the STOP signs because I honestly believe that a STOP at Monroe/Handy would be very beneficial. What I have noticed, especially recently is the increased traffic flow as a result of closing of Walnut Ave. overpass which will continue for a while, traffic comes up over Collins Ave. and i find that many people divert on Milford to Locust up to Monroe on over to Wanda and use that as a thoroughfare. So it seems that it is not necessarily the people that live in the area that are creating the problems but it's people from outside the area, and I attribute a (ot of this to the closing of Walnut and of course as I understand in about another year we're going to be closing Collins as well, and I have no idea what kind of impacfi that is going to have on traffic going down Handy St. The second STOP sign at Quincy/Handy I have my doubts whether that would be effective or not. la� Farrell, 2744 E. Hoover Ave. — There is a "4-Way" STOP at this intersection, and one of the problems we have is that people go right through the STOP sign. In fact we used to have trouble with them going across our lawn, we installed a block wall and believe it or not they stil) come up the driveway and down the curb at the corner. A "4-Way" STOP is going to be one of those situations where you have to have enforcement. I don't really quite know if I want these STOP signs or not but you will need enforcement to go with it. Chairman Yarger closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Traffic Commission for further discussion and a Motion. Vice Chairman Fortier — I have questions for staff. I heard there were 2 deaths on that street, I'd like to know if that's accurate. Is that street classified as a secondary arterial roadway on the City's MPAH? - Dave Allenbach, Asst. En i�'neer — To my knowledge there was 1 fatality on Handy St., it happened quite a few years ago at the intersection of Hoover/Handy. Handy St. is not classified as an arterial, it does nofi show up on our MPAH, the street is considered as a "collector" street and services primarily the neighborhood surrounding it. � Chairman Yar�er— I'm going to mention thafi regardless of how we vote today, this item has to go before the City Council. Hamid Bahadori, Manager Transportation Services — As a point of clarification if your - decision is "Approval" it goes to the Council, if your decision is to "Deny" the installation of STOP signs it will only go to Council if your decision is appealed through the formal process. Tape#CTC-99.07 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. � Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714) 744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. �� �1%Printed on Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Mea�ing-City Traffic Commission-October 13, 1999 Page 7 Chairman Yarger — My personal opinion is that we have guidelines we have to follow regarding the installation of STOP signs, and if we didn't follow them with a(I the requests we have had over the years for STOP signs, we would have a STOP sign at every corner of the City. Sfireets are designed to move traffic through an area; STOP signs are put up if it � meets certain criteria and just to stop traffic to stop it is not w.hy they were designed. My feeling is that I cannot vote for these STOP signs to be installed. Vice Chairman Fortier — We have certain warrants established by the state and city for justifying the installation of certain types of traffic control devices, these locations don't meet those warrants. Some statistics; when cars come to STOP signs, and there are several in a row, they speed up because they have to make up time, they are more out of control than a car going at a steady speed. People run STOP signs when they don't think they should be there, especially in the evening and today I've heard 2-3 peopfe who live by these intersections that have said just that. There is noise and air pollution associated with STOP signs. When you have STOP signs in a row you have accidents where people read- end other cars where they don't stop for the STOP signs and they run into somebody else. I've also noticed that when a STOP sign goes up, even temporary ones, they never come down. I think there is a solution to this problem that is not as negative as STOP signs, which are not warranted for this street. Commissioner Sciarra — I have to agree. The problem we are facing today in our community is a combination of many things, such as too many cars, freeway and surface street construction projects and as a result we are facing these speeding problems on Handy and other streets in the community. Most people are impatient and don't have the attitude they should have when operating a vehicle. The only thing I can see in relafiion to our problem is law enforcement, we don't have to add more personnel to do that, and we just have to have them in areas where they can be more effective. Commissioner Poutsma — It seems the real issue revolves around enforcement and I'd like to ask Sgt. Green of the Traffic Bureau to give us a synopsis of how does a certain community request additional enforcement? S�t. Bob Green, OPD Traffic Bureau —We have a priority system and it's based on calls for services. During the times of high traffic peaks, high density such as lunch hour rush, � afternoon and morning commute hour, all the calls for services will demand our attention prior to special enforcement in areas such as Handy St. We have given Handy St. special attention since March or April, we've written hundreds of citations and I believe there are times when we go out and do our enforcement the speeds lower, but when we leave the problem seems to reoccur, but it's all based on supply and demand. Chairman Yarger — Sgt. Green, how many "motors" do you have at this time, and how many do we have on the street at any one time? Tape#CTC-99.07 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. � Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714) 744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. �■�Printed on Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting-City Traffic Commission-October 13, 1999 Page 8 Sgt. Bob Green — We have 9 motors, with 1 in training. We're down a couple of positions and at any one time we have Master Motor Officers on special assignments such as Handy St. and are assigned to nothing but that, as time allows. It's hard to say at any one given time, on .Thursday there may be 8-9 motors on duty while on a weekend we may only have 2-3 motors available and we try to adjust to the demand of the traffic conditions at the time and our accident picture. When the most accidents occur that is when we try to have the majority of our motor officers on duty and during those peak hours. Chairman Yar�er — Some of you in the audienee may wonder why I have asked about "'motors" specifically. Motors are determined to be the most efficient type of vehicle to be used in neighborhood speed and traffic control, due to their relative ease of maneuverability versus a patrol car. � � Commissioner Petronella — I hate to lay this on the Police Depfi. but I don't go along with the.extra signs either, from my past experience, motorists will not stop at them after hours. You're going to have a different kind of complaint and you're going to come back and you're not going to be happy because they are going to be blasting through those signs in the early morning hours and you will hear squealing of brakes. It's a bad experience when you put a sign in that doesn't really meet standards and when they start disrespecting that sign you're going to be unhappy with what you see and hear. So it comes�back to enforcement againo ACTION o ` Deny the request for the installation of two "All-Way" STOP signs at the intersections of Handy/Quincy.and Handy/Monroe. MOTION: D. Yarger SECON D: F. Sciarra AYES: U nan i mous Tape#CTC-99.07 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. � Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714) 744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. _ �s ��Printed on Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting-City Traffic Commission-October 13, 1999 Page 9 B. Request to change the street name of "The City Drive" between,the I-5 Freeway, and the northerly City limit, to "State College Boulevard." Traffic Engineering Division CITY OF ORANGE Oral presentation is based on the written staff report, please refer to your copy. There was no discussion of this request. ACTION: Approve the street name change from "The City Drive" between the I-5 Freeway, and the northerly City limit, to "State College Boulevard." MOTION: D. Yarger SECOND: ). Fortier � AYES: Unanimous IVa ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS � � 1. Report on the possible use of protected permissive left-turn phasing in the City of Orange. Traffic Engineering Division CITY OF C�RANGE Hamid Bahadori, Manager Transportation Services — Reported on the potential use of protected permissive left-turn phasing for our City. We have done some research on the report presented to you that summarizes the background on this issue, the history in the Orange County cities that have experienced these existing conditions. Some of the cities such as the City of Irvine started experimenting with such installations and they changed their positions based on pubfic input and the accident history at these locations. Other cities such as Huntington Beach and Anaheim are experiencing problems with both the factual information as far the number of accidents especially associated with this type of installations and also frustration and confusion from motorists. At this time in face of the experience of other cities and the informafiion compiled by the L. A. Times reporters, I suggest that we put this on hold and watch what these other cifiies are doing and wait for � � better information to come in before making a decision. ACTION: Receive & File report. IVIOTION: D.Yarger SECOND: F. Sciarra AYES: U nan i mous V. ORAL PRESENTATION ` None this meeting. Tape#CTC-99.07 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. � Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714) 744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. � �s ��Printed on Recycled Paper Minutes o�a Regular Me�ting-City Traffic Commission-�ctober 13, 1999 Page 10 Vt.ADjOURNMENT After discussion of today's Agenda items of the C�ty Traffic Commission was concluded, and as there were n+o further req�ests for action under Oral Presentations, the Chairman adjourned this s�ssiar� of t�he City Traffic Commission ate The next regularly scheduled meeting of the City Traffic Commission will be Wednesday — - November 1 D, T999. Respectfully submitted, CITY OF(JRANGE Phyllis Then (ZecQrding Secretary TrafFic Engineering Division CITY OF ORANGE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS TRAFFIC ENGINEERING DIVtSlON 300 E. CHAPMAN AVE. ORANGE CA 92866 � PH: (714) 744-5536 FAX: (7�4) 744-6961 � -MINUTES-0CTOBER[DISK#20/THENP] Tap�#CTG99.07 of this City Traffic Commission m�eting is available for your review. �� Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714) 744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. �Printed on Recycled Paper