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09-07-2005 DRC MinutesCITY OF ORANGE DESIGN REVIEW COMMITTEE MINUTES September 7, 2005 Committee Members Present: Donnie Dewees Craig Wheeler Joe Woollett Staff in Attendance: Dan Ryan, Senior Historic Planner Anne Fox Howard Morris, Landscape Coordinator Committee Member Absent: Jon Califf, Chair Administrative Session - 5:00 P.M. The Committee met for an administrative session beginning at 5:00 p.m. The meeting adjourned at approximately 5:30 p.m. Regular Session - 5:30 P.M. C fem. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2005 t~ ~, Page 2 1. DRC No. 3816~~ JENSEN BUILDING SIGN PROGRAM New multi-tenant sign program for two-story, 15,000 sq. ft. commercial building. Property located at 190 S. Glassell (Old Towne Orange Historic District) Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, Senior Planner DRC Action: Final Determination Committee Chair, Craig Wheeler opened the meeting by announcing that it was determined that since three of the Design Review Committee members lease space in a building on the Plaza, it would be inappropriate for them to hear the final item on the Agenda, the Old Town Signage Conservation Preservation Project. But, it was determined that it was alright to discuss Item No. 1, the Jensen Building Sign Program. Mr. Daniel Ryan, Senior Planner noted for the record that the Old Town Signage and Conservation Project would be forwarded to the Planning Commission for action. Mr. Ryan presented the project as a new multi-tenant two-story office retail building at the northwest corner of Glassell and Almond. He stated that the sign program included signs for the following tenants: Mustard Delicatessen, Aldo's Italian Restaurant, Menagerie Creative, and the Sideboard Culinary store. Furthermore, the sign program consists of the following projecting wall signs for each tenant. The signs measure three feet by five feet for a total of 15 square feet in area, which meets Code. Mr. Ryan explained that the pro~ectmg signs would contain the business name with the approved lettering style or custom typeface. The projecting signs located below the canopy will be supported by L-brackets attached to the wall. He also mentioned that Mustard Delicatessen, Aldo's Restaurant and Sideboard signs have neon lighting whereas the Menagerie Creative projecting sign is not illuminated. The pedestrian blade signs for each tenant are mounted under the canopy. The signs will measure one by three for a total of three square feet which is less than the Code requires. He stated the pedestrian blade signs will be supported by a bracket attached to the inside of the canopy and have a minimum clearance of eight feet to the sidewalk. Mr. Ryan explained that each of the projecting signs will have a variation in shape from rectangular to modified rectangular with a slight bow-tie shape. He also explained the letter style for the pedestrian blade signs is a Helvetica Regular whereas the letter style for the projecting signs above the canopy is a customer letter style that is complimentary to each tenant. Mr. Ryan stated that the Plaza Design Collaborative Signage Study of Old Towne indicated that some historical signs of this period used script-lettering style. He said if you look back at the historical record, there are some signs that indicate that, and even though it may not be detailed in the Design Standards, it does mention the historical type face that has been used in the past, can be used in the replacement signs. Finally, Mr. Ryan stated that Staff is recommending that the project be approved in conforming to the plans that were submitted and dated June 7, 2005 and that those conditions be printed on the first page of the construction documents, and they obtain any building permits. C City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2005 Page 3 Ms. Susan Secoy proceeded to provide some additional research data for the Plaza area, and how the design was developed. Mr. Jeff Frankel of OPTA stated that as long as the signs conform to the design standards, and it seemed that they did conform to the standards, then he was in favor of the signs. Ms. Secoy stated that all the signs were illuminated except for one (the office tenant upstairs). Mr. Donnie Dewees wanted it clarified that the elevation shown was the one being discussed. He also asked if the smaller signs were only for Sideboard, and Aldo's, and also for Mustard Cafe. Ms. Secoy explained that the sign for the Mustard Cafe was not included in the sign package due to a misspelling, but would indeed have a small sign. Mr. Wheeler was concerned about the bracket for the lighted signs due to its contemporary style with the eclectic light fixture being so close by. He thought it was slightly jarring. He made two suggestions; one, to come up with a bracket that was more traditional, perhaps a more flat plate on the wall with the bar coming out, and two, to show more of a connection to the bracket to the building. Ms Secoy agreed, and had a couple of options. She mentioned the District Lounge sign, and stated the same company was making the signs for the Jensen Building. She thought the bracket could be modified to look more like the District Lounge sign. Mr. Dewees also agreed with Mr. Wheeler, and stated he had the same thoughts. He mentioned the bracket was a "tweener", and said to have the bracket be either more decorative like the Sternburg fixture or have it be more tectonic like the Turnbuckle. Mr. Wheeler also mentioned that another option would be to paint it out a bit more, and match the building more so it wouldn't be such a noticeable contrast between the contemporary and the eclectic. Ms. Secoy personally felt they could use a little bit of black trim. She stated the building is very simple, and thought the black related to the other black elements. But, as far as the bracket goes, she would like to see it refined. Mr. Woollett questioned whether the bracket could be made to support the sign in a high wind. He mentioned the connection against the wall, and was concerned it would rip right through the connection. Ms. Secoy agreed, and stated she preferred something more anchored to the building. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2005 Page 4 Mr. Dewees mentioned something that has been done to other signs in the area (in the past) is whatever gets anchored into it, would be anchored at the grout lines, and not at the brick so that way if there's a signage change, there's not a brick that's damaged. Mr. Woollett re-emphasized that this meant that the anchoring needed to be more structurally sound. Ms. Secoy agreed with the feedback. The Committee all agreed that the signs were what they were hoping for and thought the ,signs were great. q ~ ~ -(~-~~ l /~ ,~~,f'`~,~~rr.~ Committee Member Joe Woollett made a motion to approve design for 3816-03 to the Planning i~ ~a,~ Commission with the exception that the mounting brackets be modified to be stronger, and more ~ ,- substantial similar to the District sign and others in Old Town, and that the attachment be at the 1 ~`" grout line, and not at the brick. ~°~ ~ '' Mr. Ryan mentioned that the bracket may be modified both structurally and aesthetically to be more in keeping with the building. SECOND:Donnie Dewees AYES:Donnie Dewees, Craig Wheeler, and Joe Woollett NOES:None ABSENT:Jon Califf, Chair MOTION CARRIED with above conditions C City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2005 Page 5 2. DRC No. 3988-OS -METRO COURT REMODEL Facade remodel of an existing 144,000 square foot commercial development comprised of five individual buildings. The subject site is located at 428-622 West Katella Avenue Staff Contact: Anne E. Fox, Contract Staff Planner DRC Action: Final Determination Ms. Ann Fox made the presentation to the Committee regarding the proposal for the existing commercial development that reads like a concrete tilt-up industrial development located along Katella, east of Batavia, and across from Home Depot Center. She explained that the applicant, and property owner, Mr. Rinker is interested in upgrading the appearance of the structure to reveal more of a commercial feel, particularly for the frontages that face Katella, while still preserving the quasi-commercial and industrial nature of the tenants that are to the rear of the property that don't need the frontage or identity as much. She .stated that it basically raises the parapet level, and would not exceed the building height level in this area, but it did give it a more decorative element. Ms. Fox mentioned that there was one element that was an item of interest, and that was the wall element that acts as a column. It is perpendicular to the walls, and has a circular cutout with a modern flavor to it. Ms. Fox stated that those would be removed as part of the project proposal, at least those that you read from Katella, and they would be replaced with a i column detail that breaks up the appearance by adding color as well as a vertical element to all the horizontal detail. It gives an opportunity for some color splash as well as to break up the storefronts to give it more of a pedestrian feel. Staff was going to include a sign program, but hope to bring it back to the DRC as a condition to require the applicant to do so because by the time the center goes through the process to upgrade the center, the existing signs will have to be removed. The owner is eager to replace the signs with a more cohesive and complimentary style to compliment the new scheme. Mr. Rinker, son of the owner, stated that the last remodel performed on the center was completed in the late 1980's. He felt the center was dated, and they wanted to paint, add architectural trim, and new signage to bring to a more modern, upscale center. Mr. Woollett inquired if the wall elements with the hole were structural. Mr. Rinker, answered that he thought they were structural. He further stated that when they submit the building permits, they would have engineer calculations with them. Mr. Dewees asked what the architectural treatments would be built from, particularly the cornice. Mr. Rinker stated that they would be built from foam cornice that are quite large that look like rock or a stone look to them. C City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2005 Page 6 Mr. Woollett was concerned about the red awning, and whether that would be removed. He also mentioned that he didn't see the revision on the drawing. Mr. Rinker stated the awning would be redone. Mr. Woollett found the awning upon further research and asked if the drawings would be~ in Staff s file and part of the record and stated the color was a good match to the color board. Ms. Fox emphasized the color chart would be part of the record. Mr. Woollett said it looked as though the designer wanted to get rid of the awning, and he replaced the fabric to make it the same color to match the building. He thought the red color awning was not in keeping with the design of the center, but may have been added on due to the sun on the west, and with all the glass, they would need some shade protection from the sun. Mr. Wheeler stated he had a hard time understanding all the things that would be done to the center. He questioned whether the projection that came out on the north elevation would be removed or if it would have a new flat roof. Mr. Rinker replied that it presently exists as an overhang. Furthermore, they would not increase the area, but fill it in with a glass line. Mr. Wheeler asked if there would be a roof over the area. If the awning shape is removed, they only thing he could see is that there would be a flat roof, but couldn't really tell because he couldn't see it on the drawing. Mr. Rinker answered that he would have to ask the architect. Mr. Wheeler was also concerned about the size of the horizontal molding on Building Five. He wanted to know how big or deep it was. Also, the columns had no detail on the drawings. Mr. Rinker answered that the molding came out about six to eight inches. Mr. Wheeler then asked about the north elevation on Building One. It was not clear what was to be done in this area, also. Overall, one of his biggest concerns was the lack of detail on the drawings. There was not a clear understanding of what was to be done. The drawings did not show (with exception of the ones facing Katella) the removal of the iconic walls with the circles on them, but as you go to the back of the complex, those same symbols remain there. He said it was as though the developer was putting a contemporary, "what's in at the moment" pancake makeup on the buildings facing the street, but as you go back, they`re saving money by not making similar changes as much to the other buildings. Mr. Dewees stated that it seemed like a mishmash of what was built in the 60's, 70's, and what is currently in fad, but would be out of fad in a while, and then the applicant would be back to a mishmash of two things that are not in style. He would like to see something more internally consistent. Mr. Wheeler's suggestion was City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2005 Page 7 to come up with something fun like using a tower element, but using the forms that are there now, and not introduce a new set of forms that will be dated very soon. They would be more likely to find that the original forms will be more in style in a few years than what the developer wants to add right now. He would like to see a creative paint job along with a new signage program in addition with an emphasis on the tower elements. Finally he said not to try to plaster over it with something new. Mr. Dewees agreed with Mr. Wheeler, and he was concerned the changes were architectural frosting. The cornices are contrived, and trying to put a top on a building that's one story that is very long. He stated that base, top, and middle don't work for one-story buildings that are that long. The Committee discouraged something as insubstantial as foam. There's foam everywhere around it that was put in 15-20 years ago that`s falling apart and having to be replaced. It looks similar to the Albertson's center down on Collins. Mr. Rinker asked if Mr. Dewees was referring of the Albertson's on Collins and Tustin. Mr. Dewees replied yes, that the center has the skewed grid and the subtle curve roof, and cornices. He stated that the more interesting thing to do was to take something and do interpretational language with something already there. He said the building had a voice from the 70's when it was built, and had unique qualities. Mr. Dewees continued that he would have a hard time supporting. this plan due to the fact that these same plans had been done everywhere like Orange, Santa Margarita, Irvine, Aliso Viejo. He again stated he agreed with everything that Mr. Wheeler said previously and knew his opinion was severe. He felt these changes were frosting, plus from a cost standpoint, these plans could be done for less money than smearing foam, paint and plaster over the building. Mr. Dewees commented that the trouble the Committee has and they struggle with, and for the record, is that there are no standards for Industrial areas and things of this nature. There are problems because the Committee has nothing to "hang their hat on", and so he would like to again revisit the idea of establishing standards for the existing industrial buildings. Mr. Rinker responded that the tenants like this plan, how they think the plan is spectacular and they think their business will be improved. Right now, the buildings are very monotone, the center is very dated, the round circles are not aesthetically pleasing, they date the center, and that is a negative to the center. Mr. Dewees stated that the changes would date the center. It will date it specifically to 1990 to1995. In 15 years, it would be looked at as the foams starts to fall apart, and remodel it again, and get rid of all the changes to be made because this is retail architectural frosting. Mr. Rinker replied back that they had owned the center for 27 years, have a pride of ownership. He respectfully disagreed that the foam would fall apart because they would not allow that to happen. He continued that the owner (his father) kept the center clean, and took good care of it. The park has always been well-maintained not only for their sake, but for the neighbor's sake. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2005 Page 8 He felt they would re-address any changes in eight to 10 years to make sure the paint and foam was well-maintained. The tenants like the paint earth-tones as well as consumers and shopper based on sales per foot. It is their desire to do what they have presented and would appreciate approval on these changes. Ms. Fox asked the Committee about the possibility to create some anchor items to capitalize on the round cut-out or a larger version of it. She felt it was a very identifiable element that is not seen on some other centers. She wanted to know the Committee's direction for the applicant. She also mentioned that the DRC would take action on this only and would not go to the Planning Commission. Mr. Rinker said that one thing about the cut-outs was that they were maintained in the back and they had kept them and highlighted them. The Committee agreed this was their point. Mr. Dewees continued that was one of the things discussed was loss of historic fabric. This applied not only to Old Town, but to Eichler tracts, and to industrial areas. There are some great examples of industrial 50's architect in this town, and it's being wiped out piece by piece. Mr. Dewees felt this was something done in the 70's, and on a certain level, there is nothing wrong with dating something. He continued that Old Town was based entirely on the idea of capturing some moment in time relative to marking something architecturally. The 70's architecture with big geometries is just as valid as a historic fabric standpoint as things that are in Old Town or the Eichler tracks. Mr. Wheeler also stated that it was possible to have all kinds of fun with paint. He continued that paint was reversible. He thought the building had stronger colors in the past. Mr. Rinker responded that it was possibly a light gray. The reason the round cut-outs were taken out in the front building was because it blocks the pedestrian access. He felt that by removing them in front and keeping them in the back that they were better suited due to the business park/office/warehouse type tenants. Mr. Wheeler asked if Mr. Rinker was speaking of the circular elements because he did not see them on the end elevations. There was some discussion regarding whether these elements would remain or be removed. Again, it was mentioned by Mr. Woollett that the drawings were not complete. He felt that someone had gone over the drawings with eye-wash, and made something to look attractive, that the plans did not agree with the elevations, and there was no sense of what was added or how deep these items were. It stated the drawings were incomplete and inconsistent. Mr. Dewees also asked about the keystones on the drawings. He mentioned that keystones were something that is in the center of an arch to support an arch. C City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2005 Page 9 Mr. Wheeler commented that the Committee really needed to see a more complete set of plans that show where the elements are, how big they are, how far back they are recessed. He suggested two things; to continue this item to get a better set of drawings and strongly encourage the applicant to think about other solutions that are more consistent throughout. He ended by stating to do something that is new throughout or using some of the forms and feelings of the past portion. Mr. Woollett made a motion that Item 3988-OS-Metro Court Remodel be continued. SECOND: Craig Wheeler AYES: Donnie Dewees, Craig Wheeler, and Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSENT: Jon Califf MOTION CARRIED City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for September 7, 2005 Page 10 Mr. Dewees made a motion that the meeting be adjourned SECOND: Craig Wheeler AYES: Donnie Dewees, Craig Wheeler, and Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSENT: Jon Califf MOTION CARRIED Meeting was adjourned at 6:15 pm. C