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01-16-2008 DRC MinutesCITY OF ORANGE DESIGN REVIEW COMMITTEE MINUTES -FINAL 16 January 2008 Committee Members Present: Jon Califf Bill Cathcart Donnie DeWees Craig Wheeler Joe Woollett Committee Members Absent: None Staff in Attendance: Leslie Aranda Roseberry, Planning Manager Ed Knight, Assistant Planning Director Dan Ryan, Senior Planner, Historic Preservation Sharon Song, Assistant Planner Sonal Thakur, Assistant Planner Howard Morris, Senior Landscape Coordinator Ted Reynolds, Assistant City Attorney Sandi Dimick, Recording Secretary Administrative Session - 5:00 P.M. The Committee met for an administrative session beginning at 5:10 p.m. Chair Wheeler opened the Administrative Session with a review of the Agenda. Chair Wheeler stated he would be recused from Item No. 6 and 7 as the engineer he had been working with was involved in the project on Item No. 6 and his office was located within 500 feet of the address on Item No. 7. Committee Member DeWees stated he would be recused from Item No. 2, as he had been previously involved in the project and Item No. 7 due to the location. Planning Manager, Leslie Aranda Roseberry, stated there were no other changes to the agenda and it would be heard as written. On the subject of policy and procedure she stated the city had been receiving complaints on an addition to an Eichler home in the Fair Hills tract. Staff had received a number of phone calls and emails and she suspected the Committee Members had received them as well. The City had contacted the property owner and there was a meeting set with them on Monday, January 21. Staff planned to outline the City's concerns and ask the property owner to begin looking at some design solutions. They did not anticipate having a resolution that day. She had relayed the information to those residents that had contacted the City and she would take down any email information on those community members who may be present to speak on the item. It was not an agenda item and if anyone appeared, they would speak under the Public Participation Session of the meeting and the Committee Members could receive City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 2 of 31 their comments, however, they could not respond. Ms. Aranda Roseberry was prepared to make a statement prior to any community members speaking. The Committee Members reviewed the minutes from the December 19, 2007 meeting. Committee Members noted changes and corrections needed. Committee Member DeWees made a motion to adjourn the administrative session. SECOND: Jon Califf AYES: Jon Califf, Bill Cathcart, Donnie DeWees, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None Administrative Session adjourned at 5:25 p.m. MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 3 of 31 Regular Session - 5:30 P.M. The meeting adjourned at approximately 9:51 p.m. to the next regular scheduled meeting on Wednesday, February 6, 2008. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION Opportunity for members of the public to address the Design Review Committee on matters not listed on the Agenda. Planning Manager, Leslie Aranda Roseberry, stated she had spoken to many residents on the permit issued for 1120 Corrida Place, and there was an addition there that was being built to plan. Staff had spoken with the property owner and a meeting was set for Monday, January 21. Staff did not anticipate a solution at that time; however, they were hoping to open up a dialogue and present their concerns and work with the property owner on a possible design solution. She stated that as the item was not an agenda item, the DRC could hear their comments; however, they were unable to engage in any discussion. Adrian Turner, address on file, stated he was present to share his concern about the addition that was inconsistent with the character of the homes. One of the important features of the homes was the uniformity in the roof pitches that were flat or slightly pitched and they were designed to be single story. In keeping the home single-story it maintained the privacy between the homes and there were no above fence line obstructions between homes. The addition on the home at 1120 Corrida did not appear to keep a consistent roofline and he suggested that the addition should maintain the roofline, at minimum. He and his wife had relocated from Portland, Oregon and they had specifically moved into the Fair Hills tract to own an Eichler, they were hypersensitive to remodeling/addition type work, as their own home had been remodeled. Preserving the design intent of the homes was important. Geri Lopler, address on file, stated she did not know about Eichler homes when she moved in, and she did not understand how the design implications of such a well known architect had such far reaching impacts. They had an opportunity to protect a design. She was concerned that this project had somehow gotten by the City Council and DRC, and that the design was not approved by someone going out to the property to ensure it would be consistent with the neighborhood. The City of Orange had 3 distinct Eichler neighborhoods in a gem of a City. These were sought after homes, for their clean lines, modern look and uniformity. There were a few homes in each of the neighborhoods that had caused great distress for the property owners as it had dropped the property values, and these were homes that had additions made to them. She stated she was not about government regulations and she was highly libertarian; however, there needed to be attention paid to whether or not property owners could simply add a second story to these homes. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January l 6, 2008 Page 4 of 31 Steve Barringer, address on file, stated Ms. Lopler summed it up. He was upset that the permit was granted just by someone going up to the window and getting a stamp on their project. He asked the Planning Department when a plan was submitted wouldn't someone have noticed it was an Eichler home? Didn't they notice it looked like an R.V. Storage lot? The addition would not go well on any house in the City. He could not believe someone had rubber stamped the project. When an Eichler address popped up, it needed to be flagged, for further review. On this addition the residents had knocked the carport out and he was concerned that the property owner might be planning on bringing the addition all the way to the street. He felt they were destroying the house and he was not happy with that Jim Gobright, address on file, stated he lived directly across the street from the property in question. He had been an Eichler homeowner since 1988, and he had owned two Eichler homes. He owned one in the original tract on Woodland and he had done his best to improve that home. He moved to the Fair Hills tract in '98 and had done the same to the home he now lived in. When he built the fence he was concerned with how the neighbors would respond. He reviewed the CC&Rs to ensure he maintained the same character. He was disappointed to see the addition being made. Mr. Gobright stated Eichler homes were unique to Southern California and he presented several documents with articles that detailed the Eichler homes and their architectural importance. Pamela Gobright, address on file, stated they knew the homeowners at 1120 Corrida Place and they were friendly with them. She felt that these were people who had no intention of ruining their home, and did not understand the implications of what they were doing. They were immigrants, hard working people, and she felt the City really failed them in not explaining to them what they had. They could have maintained the roofline of the house and accomplished their goal. Something went wrong with the City. Chair Wheeler closed the Public Participation Session. CONSENT ITEMS: All matters that are announced as Consent Items are considered to be routine by the Design Review Committee and will be enacted by one motion. There will be no separate discussion of said items unless members of the Design Review Committee, staff or the public request specific items to be removed from the Consent Items for separate action. 1) APPROVAL OF MINUTES: December 19, 2007 Committee Member Woollett made a motion to approve the minutes of December 19, 2007 with changes as noted. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 5 of 31 SECOND: Jon Califf AYES:Jon Califf, Bill Cathcart, Donnie DeWees, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES:None ABSTAIN:None ABSENT:None MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 6 of 31 AGENDA ITEMS: Continued Items: 2) DRC No. 4233-07 -AMERICAN HERITAGE (SOUTHSIDE MARKET) A proposal to remove an unpermitted addition and restore anon-contributing commercial building to its prior state 391 South Glassell Street Old Towne Historic District Staff Contact: Dan Ryan, 714-744-7224 dryan(a~cityoforange.org Item continued from December 19, 2007 DRC Meeting DRC Action: Final Determination Committee Member DeWees recused himself from the item as he had been previously involved with the project. Senior Planner, Dan Ryan, gave a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Architect, Miles Folsom, address on file, stated he was brought onto the project after two other architects had tried to resolve the project. He was made aware of the illegal addition that had been built. He had completed several projects in the City of Orange. From the start of the project he wanted to comply with everything the DRC and Planning Department was requesting on the project. One of the key issues was the square footage that could be reconstructed on the property. They were able to work back with aerial photos, and followed the direction received from Mr. Ryan. The intent of the owner at this point, was to renovate the building as perceived by planning, including the finishes that were originally there. They were also following up with issues related to the siding, matching windows and outside finishes. They had also followed the recommendations of not having roof-mounted equipment. They would also be in compliance with ADA and City requirements. Mr. Folsom stated the sign was the best part of the building. He had recommended that the sign be restored, and the property owner was in contact with a restoration company and he was optimistic that the sign could be saved. Public Comment Jeff Frankel, address on file, representing the OTPA, stated they had initially worked with the property owner and Mr. DeWees on the project. They had watched portions of the building demolished. They agreed with Staffs recommendation for the windows, siding and the door. As the applicant was going to the extent that they were on the building, it would not take too much more to remove the stucco from the remainder of the building. This would allow the structure to seek re-listing and the potential for Mills eligibility. He was not sure if the original siding was still in tact. He asked Mr. Ryan if they restored the building back to the original clapboard siding, could they seek re-listing of the property? City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 7 of 31 Mr. Ryan stated it was possible; however, they did not have period photographs. Further investigation might reveal there was siding. Mr. Frankel stated that he felt the sign should be maintained in its current state. Chair Wheeler opened the item to the Committee for discussion. Committee Member Woollett asked if there had been any consideration to restore the south side of the building? Mr. Folsom stated they had followed the existing finishes of the building and it was repaired and restored to meet the current building standards. There was never any discussion on the removal of stucco to check for wood siding. The character of the building appeared to have been a stucco building for quite some time. The horizontal siding that was on one of the sides of the building deteriorated the entire side of that building as it was completely rotted away. Committee Member Woollett stated he felt the south side would be worse as it was fully exposed to all the elements. Mr. Folsom stated they had completed some drilling on all the walls at the plate line and there was no evidence of rot on that side of the building. Committee Member Woollett asked if they knew when the sign had been originally installed? Mr. Folsom stated he did not have that information. He concurred with Mr. Frankel's suggestion of repairing the sign and not to completely refurbish the sign. He did not think it was subject to design review, and their thought was to keep it there and it would be an integral part of the architecture. Chair Wheeler asked if they had given any thought to alternate designs for the canopy? Mr. Folsom stated the canopy was a dilemma, as their engineer had gone out to look at the canopy. The canopy was pulling down and falling down. The engineer suggested the addition of the interior structure. The remainder of the canopy could be repaired and repainted or if there was further damage it could be replaced. There was an area of canopy that had deteriorated that they may not be able to retain. It appeared to have been used for advertising. Chair Wheeler asked if it was considered historic and should it be retained. Mr. Ryan stated it had been there approximately 50 years or longer. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 8 of 31 Mr. Folsom stated the shape of the canopy augmented the building very well and looked to belong on the building. Committee Member Califf stated he encouraged them to investigate the siding issue in regard to restoring and re-listing the property. Chair Wheeler asked if they would need to move the curb cut? Mr. Folsom stated there was already a curb cut with sufficient space. Chair Wheeler stated the notes read that the siding on the north wall would be paint grade. Mr. Folsom stated they were not able to ascertain what the actual finish was. Whether it was painted or not they would want it to match the rest of the building and it was the siding not the color that was the issue and they would be using wood siding. Chair Wheeler stated he concurred with Staff that the mulleins should be wood. Mr. Folsom stated he did not know what to do with the front doors. They were currently 2' X 8' doors, and the current code called for a minimum of 2' 8" clear. He was working on designing the doors and the hardware to double swing and enable them to meet the ADA requirements. Committee Member Califf asked if the historic code would give them any relief on the door requirement? Mr. Folsom stated he had worked on a historic building in downtown Anaheim with a similar situation. Their intent was to make sure all the doors work. They had a real battle with the building code, in terms of a life & safety issue. They were told to leave the doors, but provide some legal exits. That would mean having to create another door to get in and out of the building and further make changes to a historic structure. Committee Member Woollett felt the project had been very thoroughly reviewed and Staff had been deeply involved with it. He was very pleased with the project. Committee Member Woollett made a motion to approve, DRC 4233-07-American Heritage (Southside Market), with the conditions contained in the Staff Report and the following additional conditions: 1. Sign to be retained and refurbished. 2. Item No. 2 to read: Match the original 2' X 8' front entry doors. 3. Siding on the north side of the building be wood. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 9 of 31 Also, with the suggestion that the stucco removal be considered and investigated for addition to the historic registry. SECOND: Jon Califf AYES:Jon Califf, Bill Cathcart, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES:None ABSTAIN:None ABSENT:None RECUSED:Donnie DeWees MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 10 of 31 New Agenda Items: 3) DRC No. 4266-07 -EAST ORANGE PLANNED COMMUNITY AREA 2 A proposal to provide for a comprehensive landscape plan with related improvements for a proposed subdivision of an area of approximately 785 acres, creating 604 numbered lots and 198 lettered lots to establish building sites for a total of 1,200 residential dwelling units within a master planned community. Generally located on the North side of Santiago Canyon Road, East of Irvine Lake Staff Contact: Anne Fox, 714-744-7229, afox cr,cityoforan eg com DRC Action: Recommendation to the Planning Commission Assistant Planning Director, Ed Knight, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Project Manager, Brian Austin, stated he had been working on this project off and on over the last 20 years. In mid 2005 they had made it to City Council for approval of their general plan, zoning, run off management plan and some additional design guidelines for the Santiago Hills 2 project. At that time there were subdivision, concept plans and trail plans that had been approved. They were presenting the tentative tract map and related materials. The landscape plans were being presented to the DRC in the next step of their plan refinement. He felt that they were delivering on the promises that had been made in 2005. They were not presenting the architecture of any structures or details of the site plans for the proposed properties. Those plans would be presented sometime in the future and they were currently working on the tentative tract map and the approval of materials before taking that next step. Once the tentative tract map was approved the City would begin looking at annexing the property, as the area still remained in the County. Mr. Austin stated they had met with the Fire Department to discuss fuel modification, and as a result of the resent fires, that was a huge issue. He felt they had their support. They had also addressed the community's wishes with the addition of trails. Chief Project Planner, Roger McErlane, address on file, stated he had been involved with the original planning on the project. The objective for each of the separate sectors of the East Orange project were entirely different, each had a different opportunity to incorporate its strengths. In area 2 there was a desire to incorporate the arroyos and natural canyons into the plan. They would also be looking at a product that responded to the visibility on the peninsulas that made it more of a complex rather than a series of structures. They took into consideration the silhouettes of the hillside and the maintenance of the natural character of the area. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page ll of 31 Mr. Austin stated Santiago Canyon Road would be widened as it approached the first entry of the proposed developed area as a City requirement. The remainder of the road would remain atwo-lane road up to their second entry. They were trying to preserve the natural areas that existed along Santiago Canyon. Landscape Architect, Bob Clark, address on file, stated the area 2 plan incorporated an extensive trail system; including a regional riding, hiking and biking trail. The connectivity between area 1 and area 2 would be an existing ranch road. He pointed out on the plan boards the various areas where the trails would be located. There would be gated entries for the lake neighborhoods; however, the bike trails would be accessible to the public. The site plan and grading were developed with consideration of the natural environment and the key natural features. The landscape backbone and plant palette were heavily influenced by the natural arroyos which formed the majority of the project perimeter. Those plant communities were predominantly Oak tree dominated, with Sycamore, Sage scrub, Cactus scrub and native grasslands. That palette would be used along the perimeter of the project to give a seamless transition to the natural open space. The fuel module incorporated coastal sage, grassland and Cactus scrub. In addition to the landscape plan, the function of the different plant palettes were provided. The fuel module plan was heavily influenced by the native existing palette. They had worked closely with the City Fire Department to include the first line of defense areas in their plan to meet the City fire standards. Mr. Austin stated the plans were consistent with what had been presented and approved in 2005. Public Comment None. Chair Wheeler opened the hearing to the Committee for discussion. Mr. Knight stated that this project was a recommendation to the Planning Commission. They would review the project with those comments made by the DRC. The project contained the preliminary landscape plans for the East Orange Area 2 location. The Irvine Company had spent several meetings with the DRC regarding the design guidelines for Santiago 2 and East Orange Area 1, and the group had concentrated heavily on those sites, with East Orange Area 2 being much more basic. The information being presented was the level of information that would have been presented for East Orange Area 2, and asked that they take that into consideration when reviewing the project for their recommendation. Committee Member Woollett stated in several areas there was reference to areas where water would be carried from, and asked if the WQMD requirements had been addressed? City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 12 of 31 Mr. Austin stated when the zoning was put together for the project they were mindful of the water quality treatment, drainage and run-off. The current plan compared to the original plan was very close, in that the water ran down to the limestone creek before it fed into Irvine Lake. Before it reached the limestone creek it ran through water quality treatment basins that would most likely be HOA managed facilities. They had an agreement with the Irvine Ranch Water District and the Serrano Water District that required them to monitor the output of the basins. They would be looking at ways to meter the water that would be going into the existing arroyos. Committee Member Woollett stated that the landscape would be filtering the water. He asked if water from all of the hard surfaces would eventually make their way to the lake? Mr. Austin stated that the landscape would be irrigated during their establishment and then cut back over time to avoid continuous run-off. The water from the hard surfaces would reach the lake, but not before going through the water treatment basins. Committee Member Woollett asked what agreements did they make with the developers in terms of their disposition to the water usage? Mr. Austin stated they would establish the framework and grading and the developer would work within that framework. Committee Member Cathcart stated that the City would require the WQMD plans for the water to run-off into a retention basin or a bio-swale or a mechanical filtering system. Each subdivision would need to conform to the guidelines of the WQMD as they were developed. Committee Member Woollett stated the primary plants were native type plants and asked when they were planted would the area have the appearance of an oasis or more of an original appearance? Committee Member Cathcart stated many of the plants were considered indigenous or native type and they were drought tolerant. He felt the area would look better with the same material that existed naturally. Mr. Austin stated the landscape style could be compared to what was used in Shady Canyon. They had retained modeling at the request of the Fire Department to predict flame length and things of that nature to ensure that the fuel modules were correct. Mr. McErlane stated it was rough and ready plant material. They had been out to areas and had taken pictures after the recent fires, and the Fire Department was comforted by what they saw and the landscape had successfully held up. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 13 of 31 Mr. Austin pointed out on the maps where the fire line would be in comparison to the proposed development. He stated that there would be a very elaborate maintenance manual that would be put together by Mr. Clark to be part of the developer's acceptance of the project. Mr. Clark stated that they would have an HOA requirement for bi-annual clearing of brush, under the supervision of the Fire Department. The design called for the outer most edges of the fuel module zone to have a thinning of the native plant material, as a fire would move into that area it would slow as it moved through to the irrigated zone and then hit the non-flammable species which would cause it to further diminish. Committee Member Cathcart suggested for the trees that did not appear on the master street tree list, to remove those from the list. Many of those trees were messy and required too much water. In looking at the overall plant palette, he suggested that the Pine community be moved further back away from the Santiago visual. That would allow for the Oak and Sycamore to become more prominent at Santiago Canyon Road. He was concerned with the use of Cork Oak trees in a residential area as those trees tended to be disfigured by vandalism. If they were to be used they should be moved further away from the home sites. He also felt Torrey Pine trees would be a good choice to augment the pine palette, as that type of tree held up better during the initial period of irrigation. Chair Wheeler stated he echoed Committee Member Cathcart's suggestion about the Cork Oak, and he suggested the use of native pines in the landscape. Mr. Clark stated it was difficult to find native pines in sizes much larger that 15 gallons and they did intend to use native plantings. He agreed with the suggestion for the use of Torrey Pine trees. Chair Wheeler stated he was pleased to hear about the plans for widening on Santiago Canyon Road and made a suggestion to move the gate back to make accommodations for cars turning or backing out in that area. Mr. Austin stated a traffic engineer had looked at the plan and they had followed his suggestions for the placement of the gate. Committee Member Cathcart asked if planting would take place prior to anyone purchasing lots in the area. Mr. McErlane stated they would be completing framework planting with or without buyers. Mr. Austin stated the process would be to grade, install irrigation, and check for ground stability. The landscape would occur as the builders began building the model homes. It was a relatively seamless process. It would be a number of years before building would City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 14 of 31 begin as they needed to bring water and sewer lines into the area first. Committee Member DeWees stated, in looking at the map, there were pads that were very high and he asked if there was anything being considered to mitigate the look of ridge developments? Mr. Austin stated there was only one spot that had a ridge type development; everything else was well below the ridgeline. He reviewed the drawings and maps with Committee Member DeWees. Chair Wheeler asked if the water tank was new? Mr. Austin stated there was a new water tank and the current master plan showed a reservoir that would serve their project and other projects in the area. The facility would be built, owned and operated by the Irvine Ranch Water District. If would be partially buried with natural landscaping. Committee Member Califf asked if the annexation of the project would affect the review by the City? Mr. Knight stated that all the entitlement work was being completed by the City of Orange. When development was contemplated for the site they would do the plan check for grading and the area would be brought into the City. Outside of the subdivision, with the exception of Irvine Lake, would remain with the County of Orange and it was preferred that it be left that way. Mr. Austin stated they annexed Santiago Hills to area 1, essentially right after the 2005 approval. The goal at that time was to start the development, all of the grading plans and improvements plans were processed through the City and that was their intent on the current project. Committee Member Woollett made a motion to recommend DRC No. 4266-07 to the Planning Commission, with the conditions listed in the Community Services memo from Howard Morris and the suggestions to move the Pine trees and incorporate the use of native plant materials in their design. SECOND: Donnie DeWees AYES: Jon Califf, Bill Cathcart, Donnie DeWees, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 15 of 31 4) DRC No. 4241-07 -HART PARK POOL AND DECK RENOVATION (CIP #0025) A proposal to add a new emergency/fire access door to meet fire and safety requirements. 701 South Glassell Street, Old Towne Historic District Staff Contact: Sharon Song, 714-744-7243, sbaik@cityoforange.org DRC Action: Substantial Conformance Determination/Final Determination Assistant Planner, Sharon Song, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Project Manager, Michael Morrell, address on file, stated that the original wall had been torn down for pool access and they worked with building and safety to move the door to an appropriate location. Public Comment Jeff Frankel, address on file, representing the OTPA, stated they wanted to encourage the use of a wooden door to be consistent with the other existing doors on the building. Chair Wheeler opened the hearing to the Committee for discussion. Committee Member DeWees stated there had been a prior recommendation for the door to be moved over and asked if they were considering that? Community Services Manager, Bonnie Hagen, stated it was certainly an option to move it over. The reason it was in the proposed location was to ensure maximum distance from other entrance/exits. If the DRC recommended that they move it they would like to consider moving it in block increments for construction purposes. Committee Member DeWees reviewed the plans and pointed out his suggestion for moving the door over within the same panel. He stated if the door became wood it would give it a stronger visual element. Chair Wheeler suggested the wood door be painted to match the existing door, and suggested it should match the other doors in the project. Committee Member Woollett stated he supported the use of a wood door and to have it moved over per Committee Member DeWees' suggestion. Committee Member Woollett made a motion to approve, DRC No. 4241-07, Hart Park Pool and Deck Renovation (CIP #0025) subject to the conditions in the Staff Report and with the following additional conditions: City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 16 of 31 1. The emergency exit door be moved approximately 8' north on the block module. 2. The door match the existing doors. SECOND: Craig Wheeler AYES: Jon Califf, Bill Cathcart, Donnie DeWees, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 17 of 31 5) DRC NO. 4246-07 - T-MOBILE (OMNIPOINT COMMUNICATIONS INC.) A proposal to install two 60-foot tall stealth flag poles and supporting equipment, on the west side of the Civic Center entrance to City Hall. 300 E. Chapman Avenue, Old Towne Historic District Staff Contact: Dan Ryan, 714-744-7224, dryan@cityoforange.org DRC Action: Recommendation to the Planning Commission Senior Planner, Dan Ryan, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Kristin Gallardo, address on file, stated she was a consultant for T-Mobile and she had been working with Staff to present a project that would serve the civic center and the community and a streamlined design that would blend in with the Civic Center. The proposed flag pole was not tapered. The finial, or any design features could be changed per the DRC's recommendations. The new pole was designed to match the existing flag poles. Committee Member Woollett asked if the existing flag pole was tapered. Ms. Gallardo stated from a height standpoint, the existing pole was 63'; their pole was lower than that. The reason for anon-tapered pole was to allow for housing of the cables that ran up through the flag pole. In reference to the flag size, they would work with the City to choose a flag that was in proportion to the flag pole. The guideline used in the Visual Impact and Cultural Resource report was a 1/2 mile radius to identify areas of potential impact. The conclusion was that there was no adverse impact. For the indirect areas of potential impact it varied from site to site. The report noted that was a point of approximately 500'. Mr. Ryan asked if the flag and pole would have the standard ropes to raise and lower the flag? Ms. Gallardo stated it would be a standard design for a flag pole. Mr. Ryan stated earlier there had been a proposal for a pole at the Senior Center, and since that projects proposal, the width size had been reduced and it was the smallest pole that could be used? Ms. Leslie Aranda Roseberry, Planning Manager, stated the project was never brought forward in the department. Ms. Gallardo stated it was the smallest radius they could use. The wiring had been split into two poles to enable them to use the reduced radius. They wanted to use a pole that would have the least visual impact and they felt that they had achieved it with the poles presented in their design. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 18 of 31 Public Comment Jeff Frankel, address on file, representing the OTPA, stated he has surprised the project had come this far. There were many projects in town for stealth devices that never came forward as they were discouraged by the City's position. There had been less obtrusive designs for proposals on buildings and on the sides of buildings that had been discouraged by the City. He presented photos of a flag pole in the City of Huntington Beach and felt it was totally inappropriate to place two of these poles in the center of the historic district. CEQA exemption did not apply to the project and he was surprised it was noted in the Staff Report. The exemption was for cumulative impacts and historic resources. Mr. Frankel was curious to know the qualifications of the person involved in the preparation of the Visual Impact and Cultural Resource report. He was disappointed that this project was being presented, as they would have made comments directly to S.H.LP.O. He felt the project had an adverse impact and it could have the potential for a cumulative impact on the district. Mr. Frankel stated he felt the City was too close to the project, and the environmental review was not available for review at the library prior to the presentation. If the project was a replacement of the existing flag poles, he would not have had a problem, but to propose two 60' tall, non-tapered flag poles in the historic district was not appropriate. They would be visible for residents and other businesses. He could not imagine that the City would go forward with this proposal. Mr. Ryan stated that Senior Landscape Architect, Howard Morris, had noted a couple of requirements regarding landscaping and Mr. Ryan read details of the requirements. Committee Member DeWees asked if there was a requirement in the posting of the item regarding a negative impact. Ms. Aranda Roseberry, stated to fully answer the questions they would need to look at the S.H.LP.O. requirement for its posting requirements. She clarified that the item was posted in the paper. Ms. Gallardo stated the report contained a copy of the preparers resume. She stated that she had been involved in a project that was in Huntington Beach, and the proposed pole was smaller than the one used on that project. She provided photos of that site. Mr. Ryan stated Mr. Morris had provided some additional landscaping requirements. He reviewed these with the applicant. Ms. Aranda Roseberry stated there were several aspects that Mr. Frankel brought up; she wanted to focus on the environmental document. If the Commission chose to make a recommendation to the Planning Commission or a recommendation of approval, they would be agreeing with the environmental determination that was made. They would not be recommending the project to the Planning Commission to review environmental documents. The environmental determination was categorical exemption. It was unusual that they had to go through the Section 106 process, taking a look at those requirements, City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 19 of 31 the State did not send out a letter stating everything was O.K., a letter was only sent if there was a problem with the project. It was also stated that if they did not hear from the State within x number of days that everything was O.K. and they could move forward with the project. The review was taken care of by the applicant, according to the plan, and the City could not control who looked or did not look at the project. If there was more information needed they could continue the item. Committee Member Cathcart stated he would like to see the item continued as he did not feel comfortable with the accuracy of the pole diameter. Committee Member DeWees stated he concurred with Committee Member Cathcart and in light of Ms. Aranda Roseberry's comments he felt they needed further clarification. Ms. Aranda Roseberry stated the Committee needed to be clear on what they needed Staff to look at and what needed to be reevaluated. Ms. Gallardo stated the site that they had just completed had a larger pole, 20" diameter, and they could use that for comparison. Committee Members discussed the need to physically view the poles and make their determination. Committee Member Califf asked how they had determined a 60' pole was needed? Ms. Gallardo stated 60' was a minimum height for the engineers to propagate their signal. They also looked into the design to make it proportionate to the existing poles. Chair Wheeler clarified that it would be a flag that could be lowered and asked what lighting would be used? Ms. Gallardo stated the lighting was a condition and the lighting would be similar to the other flag poles in the area. Committee Member Califf stated on the environmental issue, there was not something specifically wrong with the environmental analysis, however, in continuing the project it would allow for OTPA to submit their comment and allow time for a response from S.H.I.P.O. Ms. Aranda Roseberry stated Staff would need to find out if they would acknowledge a comment letter that was submitted after their initial review. They would need to get a date certain to avoid having the project delayed with uncertainty. Committee Member DeWees asked if the site was designed for co-location? Ms. Galardo stated yes, it was designed for co-location. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 20 of 31 Committee Member Woollett asked if the antennae cluster was suspended from above and was the structural element of the pole itself made from galvanized steel? Ms. Galardo stated that the antennae did come from the top, and the outside of the pole was smooth with the exception of the flag ropes. All the cable was contained within the pole. The finish of the pole was galvanized metal. Chair Wheeler asked for the address of the recent flag pole installation in Huntington Beach. Ms. Galardo stated the address was 6565 Edinger Avenue. Committee Member Woollett stated there was a notation that all CMU walls would match existing, he did not feel that was possible. Ms. Galardo stated the height of the wall was 10' and on other projects they had matched the existing walls. Committee Member Woollett stated they could not match the existing wall color, and they should use something different. He didn't want to satisfy the pole issue and not deal with the other aspects of the project. He felt they needed more time to review the project and it was a project that was being installed directly on City property. Committee Member Califf stated based on the architecture of City Hall and the Fire Department; it seemed the best place for something of this nature. Ms. Galardo stated it would be replacing the radio tower. Committee Member Califf stated the impression he had gotten from OTPA in regards to the environmental issue was they had missed an opportunity to make a comment to the State agency, his intent through the means of a continuation should allow them to make that comment. Ms. Aranda Roseberry stated they would need to check how the State would provide for that, and if the OTPA would in fact, receive correspondence back. Committee Member Califf made a motion to continue, DRC No. 4246-07- T-Mobile Omnipoint Communications, Inc.), to allow interested parties to comment to the State on the environmental analysis, and to provide the Committee Members an opportunity to further scrutinize the location and design of the proposed facilities. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 21 of 31 SECOND: Donnie DeWees AYES: Jon Califf, Bill Cathcart, Donnie DeWees, Craig Wheeler, Joe Woollett NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ABSENT: None MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 22 of 31 6) DRC No. 4295-07 - ROSSITER RANCH ESTATES A modified new proposal to construct a new single-family residence with an attached garage on a recently subdivided and vacant parcel. 6053 East Jack Pine Lane Staff Contact: Sonal Thakur,7t4- 744-7239, sthakur(c~cityoforange.org DRC Action: Final Determination Chair Wheeler recused himself from the item as his engineer had been involved with the project. Assistant Planner, Sonal Thakur, presented a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Committee Member Woollett asked why it was considered an Orange Park Acres project? Ms. Thakur stated due to the boundaries it fell within that area. Applicant, Sean Brennan, stated the home that was being developed had a second floor feature of a bonus room. The homeowner liked the design that they had on an adjacent lot; they had taken that design for this home. Applicant, Ryan White, stated that some of the plan forms changed based on the needs of the family they were building the home for. They did not feel they had lost any integrity of the design or the spatial feel. Public Comment None. Vice-Chair DeWees opened the hearing for discussion by the Committee. Committee Member Califf asked what was the height on the original plan? Mr. Brennan stated the height did not change, it was 27'. Mr. White stated with the mass that was proposed they went with a large porch entry. It was on a very secluded street with very little through traffic. Committee Member Woollett stated the style did not need to be identifiable, and he felt it was adequate if the style was consistent within itself. A building that large in a secluded area was fine, as long as it did not create any problems for neighbors. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 23 of 31 Mr. White stated that Ranch Style was a very broad name for a style, as Ranch depicted a wide porch. There were Spanish Ranches and Adobe Ranches; they had gone with a more traditional look. The stone that was being used was a ledger stone, a Thompson Building material. Committee Member Califf stated he felt the brick would be more attractive. Mr. White stated the brick would be used on the home next door. Committee Member DeWees stated he did not see that type of stone on a Ranch Style home and there were many mixed details on the project. He had made the same comments on the previous project. They had very detailed columns and a palladium window. The window was an Italian style window. Mr. White stated the intent was for more of an American Traditional Ranch rather than a Western Ranch. Committee Member DeWees stated there were many things that looked out of place. The flared chimney, and other details that did not make sense and he felt it was not internally consistent at all. From a massing standpoint it was good. There was a lot of architectural frosting and he did not want to set a precedent for other homes. He would like to see it more internally consistent. Committee Member Cathcart stated he did not have a disagreement with the design. Committee Member Califf felt there were things that could be done differently; however, being a custom home in a remote location he did not have a problem with the design. Landscape Coordinator, Howard Morris, stated before a building permit was issue the recreation trail needed to be installed. Mr. Brennan stated they were working with the City to get their approval so they could move forward on the project. Mr. Morris stated it was complete, once they received the approval from the City, the applicant would be required to submit their plan to Community Services with the layout and a material board. Committee Member Califf made a motion to approve, DRC No. 4295-07, Rossiter Ranch Estates, subject to the conditions contained in the Staff Report. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 24 of 31 SECOND:Bill Cathcart AYES:Jon Califf, Bill Cathcart, Joe Woollett NOES:Donnie DeWees ABSTAIN:None ABSENT:None RECUSED:Craig Wheeler MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 25 of 31 7) DRC No. 4317-07 - ZIRKLE CENTER FACADE MODIFICATIONS A proposal for exterior facade modifications including new electrical access door, awnings, and change of the bulkhead on a contributing commercial building in the Plaza. 177 North Glassell Street, Old Towne Historic District Staff Contact: Dan Ryan, 714-744-7224, dryan(c~,cityoforan~.or~ DRC Action: Recommendation to the Planning Commission Chair Wheeler and Committee Member DeWees recused themselves from the item due to their business locations being within 500' of the project. Senior Planner, Dan Ryan, gave a project overview consistent with the Staff Report. Architect, Douglas Ely, address on file, stated the original approved plans proposed retention of the stucco on the signage band area, as it had been thought that there was brick behind the stucco. When the stucco was removed, they realized it had been placed over lathe and it came off easily. They were very pleased with the detail that was found under the stucco. The lathe had been nailed to the grout joints which they were restoring. The applicant realized the City had little time to prepare the application, and they were in the midst of restoring the building when issues came up and they were pleased that they could appear before the DRC so quickly. They had not planned on being able to remove the stucco and that the facade could not be fully restored. Once the stucco was removed they were rethinking the use of a canopy or awnings. Mr. Ely presented photos for the Committee to review. Applicant, Gregory Nitt, address on file, stated they were working with a master mason who was able to clean up the brick very well. There was some minor damage to some of the brick areas which were being left and that added character to the building. The mason took great care on the corners to move and turn the bricks around if needed. It was not apparent that there had been stucco over the brick. They were very sensitive about the restoration specifications, there were no power tools being used, everything was being completed by hand. Committee Member Woollett asked what the openings were supported with? Mr. Ely stated there was a steel plate with large rivets as the support. In the early 90's there was a structural upgrade completed, and there was a beam added to the back of the columns and a brace that had been concealed by the wall (He pointed out these areas on the plans to the Committee). The applicant wanted to clarify what they were applying for as their report differed from the Staff information presented. On the reference to an additional door being added, in order to have a viable tenant they needed to bring more power into the building that needed direct access to the exterior of the building. There was also an additional enclosure that housed a grease trap and they did have a tenant City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 26 of 31 moving in that would require the use of that. They designed the building to house the grease trap within the enclosure. The applicant had gone to the Health Department for approval, and they had been concerned whether that would be acceptable to them or not. If a separate room was needed and the need for an additional door, from a code standpoint, the proposed configuration would not work. Committee Member Califf stated they could not use an electrical room as an exit. Mr. Ely stated there were still outstanding issues with the door as they had not heard from the Building Department. In looking at the existing facade, there were store fronts with no door openings. Technically they were adding the same type of doors that were being used elsewhere. The doors were large wood doors with translucent glass. Mr. Ely pointed out on the plans where the proposed door would be added. Mr. Nitt stated the history had been reviewed and there was no major impact on the building for that side of the street. Mr. Ely stated they proposed to add a wood finish on the bulkhead below the windows on the Glassell Street and Maple Street elevations. It would be historically accurate and he presented period photos which showed the building adjacent to the Zirkle building which had a small bulkhead with wood paneling. The wood paneling was seen throughout Old Towne. There had been a comment in the report stating it was a Victorian element; he felt it was not from the Victorian era. Mr. Ely felt it was more of a prairie style aesthetic. In walking around Old Towne he found the wood paneling detail going around building facades. They proposed to carry the wood around the corner. The other topic was the signage. In reading the Staff Report it appeared that they wanted to remove the signage and that was not the case. They were seeking approval to remove the signage that was over the original signage. When the plaster was removed the word Market was exposed, the word Sins was painted over it. As they began to clean the area there was more signage exposed. The applicant wanted to expose the existing sign and preserve it along with the word grocery which existed in another area. The black painted areas would be removed. Mr. Nitt stated that the building had multiple uses and it was hard to determine what was the original signage. There was a long history of the building being a grocery store and that is what they would like to expose and restore. Committee Member asked what would happen if the black painted areas were removed? Mr. Ely stated the word grocery was coming to the forefront, he pointed this out on the photos, and the intent was to speak to a signage expert to find the best restoration solution for the signage. Mr. Nitt added he had documented other signage around the area and had not found signage that appeared on the store fronts, and most were on the sides of the buildings which made this a unique situation. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 27 of 31 Committee Member Woollett stated he understood the intent was to go back to the oldest sign that was legible, which appeared to be North End Grocery, and bring it back to its original state. Mr. Ely stated the restoration process was stopped in order for the project to be brought before the DRC. The applicant sought suggestions from the Committee and they had the best of intentions for restoration. Mr. Nitt asked at what point in history would the sign need to be restored to? Mr. Ryan stated it would be restored to the point of historic significance of the building related to the ownership as well. It would also be based on the condition of what was exposed underneath and was there any historic documentation to refer to for the restoration. There was signage that was legible and it had a color scheme that was complimentary to the building. Mr. Nitt stated in looking at the period photos they could not identify, by signage, any of the other building signage that existed today. Mr. Ely stated there were signs from evidence of the period photos that had been removed as they did not exist today. It was difficult to identify what was the original signage and the historic significance of what should be restored. Mr. Ryan stated it depended on what the applicant family wanted to see restored and a statement of their time that had been spent in the building. In the end it may be the sign that could be recovered. The initial step would be to document what was there and then to have a conservator look at the signage, and give recommendations for some level of restoration. Committee Member Woollett stated the sign issue could not be resolved immediately. Mr. Ely stated the report also mentioned an electrical vault, there was not a vault it was electrical gears. The Planning Commission had specifically stated that they could not put in brick veneer if the stucco could not be removed. In summary the two doors would be wood, as well as the board below the windows in the store front. Staff had recommended brick; however, they would like to install wood. The retractable awnings, as recommended, would work and the color palette would be submitted for approval. The applicant would be returning with a signage package. Public Comment Jeff Frankel, address on file, representing the OTPA stated he agreed with Staff on their recommendation for brick vs. wood. There was a lot of wood in town; however, he felt that had been added later. On a building of the period and style you would have found brick. The facade looked great. When the sign was being removed there was a buzz in City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 28 of 31 town and people were very upset. He wanted to know who was removing the sign and were they qualified as he understood they used Jasco stripper. Jasco stripper would take everything off. His position recommended keeping the sign the way it was right now, preserve it and not cover it up. In regard to the period, the applicant would need to go back to the period of significance which would be from the time the business was built to 1940. The canopies were added on during the period of significance. Any changes that occurred during the period of significance should be preserved per the historic standards. He felt they should not continue to go from layer to layer on the signage to locate an original sign. The sign should not be recreated as it was inappropriate. The Historic signage Committee had an agreement with the City to restore signage. He felt the person who was removing signage on the project was not a qualified sign conservator. He had looked at the sign and realized there were areas where the signage had been completely removed. Mr. Frankel had spoken with community members who had stated that there had been signage that was removed. What had been done was done and the applicant needed to preserve what was left. He recommended that the applicant contact a sign conservator prior to any further attempts to restore or retain the signage. Katie Schroeder, address on file, stated she had taken pictures of the sign being removed. The sign was not being removed in layers it was literally being scraped off of the bricks. She presented photos and explained that the word Sins had been covered by the stucco, and when exposed it was still legible. She contacted Ken Tye, who was exuberant about the sign that had been so well preserved. After returning to the building they found that the sign was being scraped, and the contractors working on the project told her their job was to restore the brick not the sign. She spoke with the foreman as well. Ms. Schroeder contacted City officials, Mr. Tye and several other people who were able to bring the project to a stop. There was historical significance and to remove layers of signage it was still considered removal of historic signage. It placed the business on the historical tour. She could not understand why the signage was being scraped. There was lack of respect as no one stopped to contact the City. Committee Member Califf closed the Public Comment Session and opened the hearing to the Committee for discussion. Committee Member Califf stated if the project required another exit door they would not be able to exit through an electrical room. He suggested (referencing an area on the plans) to make a separate storage room and not try to combine it with an exit door. Mr. Ely stated they had initially come up with a different configuration, with the grease trap and electrical rooms in different areas. They had run into some problems with running the conduit into the electrical room and they would need to be advised by the Building Department on how to proceed. Committee Member Califf stated on the brick vs. wood, he felt the brick gave the building more of a contemporary feel. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 29 of 31 Mr. Nitt stated he felt the historic photos spoke for themselves. Mr. Ely stated there were other buildings of the same era with wood. Committee Member Califf asked if the awning would be a traditional retracting awning with the overlap? Mr. Ely stated yes, and they were trying to keep it as original as possible. He reviewed the plans for the awning with the Committee and Staff. Committee Member Califf stated a blade sign might work as it would still allow the painted sign to be seen. Mr. Ryan stated a blade sign would give you exposure to pedestrian vehicle traffic up and down Glassell and an addition to the awning could be made with more tenant information there. Committee Member Woollett stated regarding the signage, in order to investigate what was there they could work on a very small area. He had the good fortune of going through the State Capital during the time it was being restored. One of the things that they had to decide, being a working capital, was that when the restoration was complete it had to be functional - it was not a museum piece. They had to make decisions on how far back into history did they need to go. He felt on this project that they had an owner with a building, who wanted to use it and certainly they needed to respect the history, however, they needed to make decisions which allowed the building to function and to be a representative of history. There was justification to pick a time and not showing all the time. If it made sense to remove the black painted area, they could proceed with that in a very sensitive manner in order to not loose any further signage. With respect to the area below the window he did not want new brick added. From the photos there was ample justification to use wood. He was concerned that the examples of wood were too modern and the applicant needed to use something closer to the historic time period. They also needed to find a way to keep the wood from deteriorating. On the door issue they were finding ways to make the building more functional and he had no objection to that. He reviewed the plans and his suggestions with the applicants. Committee Member Cathcart stated he agreed the project was not a museum, it was a business and he felt the applicant was doing the right thing and there needed to a balance of interests in the City. On the signage there needed to be some more research and consultation done. Committee Member Califf stated their direction would be clear that nothing should happen on the sign area until a sign conservator had an opportunity to evaluate what was there. Based on that input perhaps the DRC or PC would make their findings accordingly. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 30 of 31 Mr. Ryan stated Staff had recommended a brick facade as they felt it was a better material to use. It was a 50/50 option either way and if the applicant had explored their options and determined they wanted to use wood this would not be a problem. Staff did ask for a sample of the brick if the applicant used that option. Mr. Ely stated he felt they would not pursue a brick option. He agreed with the comments made by Committee Member Woollett, and the need to be sensitive to the area. Committee Member Califf made a motion to recommend to the Planning Commission, DRC No. 4317-07, Zirkle Center Facade Modifications with the conditions contained in the staff report and with the following conditions: 1. The door openings shall be as proposed. 2. The wainscots work to the front and side facades be wood with an illustrative detail. 3. Retain recommendations No. 3 and 4 of the Staff Report. 4. The applicant is not to proceed with any work in the area of the signage. The applicant shall arrange with Staff and the Old Towne Sign Preservation Committee to have an approved sign conservator evaluate the signage. 5. On Condition No. 6 of the Staff report they would discourage individual sign letters, unless the sign could be mounted in a way that would not impact the historic brick in a negative manner. Any sign application would require DRC approval. SECOND: Joe Woollett AYES:Jon Califf, Bill Cathcart, Joe Woollett NOES:None ABSTAIN:None ABSENT:None RECUSED:Donnie DeWees, Craig Wheeler MOTION CARRIED. City of Orange -Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes for January 16, 2008 Page 31 of 31 ADJOURNMENT: A motion was made by Committee Member Woollett to adjourn to the next regular meeting on February 6, 2008. SECOND: Bill Cathcart AYES:Jon Califf, Bill Cathcart, Joe Woollett NOES:None ABSTAIN:None ABSENT:Donnie DeWees, Craig Wheeler RECUSED:None MOTION CARRIED.