11-21-2001 DRC MinutesCITY OF ORANGE
DESIGN REVIEW COMMITTEE
MINUTES
for Wednesday, November 21, 2001
Committee Members Present: Alice Angus
Leonard Filner (Vice Chair)
Susan Secoy
Joe Woollett (Chair)
Staff in Attendance: Chuck Lau, Associate Planner
Howard Morris, Landscape Coordinator
Sharon Penttila, Recording Secretary
Committee Member Absent: Mark Paone
Administrative Session - 4:30 P.M.
The committee met for an administrative session beginning at 4:30 p.m. The meeting adjourned
at approximately 7:00 p.m.
Regular Session - 5:30 PM
REVIEW OF MINUTES:
A motion was made by Committee Chair Joe Woollett to approve the October 24, 2001 minutes
with the following corrections:
Committee Members Absent: amended as follows:
P~e~e Alice Angus
DRC #3614 - Greg & Marilynn Early paragraph 1, sentence 1 add the following:
Committee Member Susan Secoy stated she would be abstaining from this item as she is
representing the applicants.
Paragraph 4, sentence 1 amended as follows:
Committee Member Joe Woollett asked approximately how far back to the west does the
existing roof go.
Paragraph 8, sentence 2 amended as follows:
He also asked if the front efeva~ien setback of the house is the same as the neighboring houses.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for November 21, 2001
Page 2
REVIEW OF MINUTES: (Continued)
Page 3 paragraph 5, sentence 2 amended as follows:
2) regarding listing as contributing structure; Mr. Dan Ryan, Senior Planner -Historic
Preservation, noted in his report that with the proposed modifications to the original structure,
l:ha~ that it would no longer be eligible for listing as a contributing structure.
Paragraph 5, sentence 2 amended as follows:
The elevations that are being modified are the ones that have already been modified to such an
extent that there is not a significant historical value issue.
Paragraph 7, sentence 3 amended as follows:
He is curious to see how that develops because it appears that there aye is limited space a~
with opportunities for landscaping along the wall.
Page 4, paragraph 1, sentence 2 amended as follows:
Now that the plans have been revised, but with maintaining the integrity of the original structure,
he is swayed in favor of the project.
Condition 2 amended as follows:
2. T~af The sleeping porch consists of a roof over trellis.
DRC #3677 - Fazoli's Restaurant page 5 paragraph 2, sentence 1 amended as follows:
Committee Member Susan Secoy asked why they decided to go with two different roof materials
standing seam metal vs. tile).
Paragraph 5, sentence 1 amended as follows:
Fred Cook stated that he is hesitant ~~ to put up a wall because security can be an
issue.
Paragraph 10, Sentence 3 amended as follows:
Mr. SeelES Cook's concern was that the client may feel he is losing too much of the character of
the look of an Italian Restaurant.
Sentence 5 amended as follows:
Committee Member Leonard Filner felt this was not a problem and that the parapet doesn't
necessarily have to look like the rest of the center, it needs character.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for November 21, 2001
Page 3
REVIEW OF MINUTES: (Continued)
Page 6, paragraph 1, sentence 2 amended as follows:
If the decision were made to use the standing seam metal roof, the project would be approvable
at this time.
Condition 5 amended as follows:
5. Applicant shall provide a standing seam metal roof throughout with plaster type molding or
provide barrel the roof throughout with parapet either barrel the or plaster and if the option
using the is chosen, applicant shall return to DRC with a revised materials board for final
approval.
Condition 7, sentence 1 amended as follows:
7. If the applicant chooses to use the standing seam metal roof with the crown molding, the
revised plans may be reviewed and approved by City staff and would not require further
review by the DRC.
SECOND:Leonard Filner
AYES:Leonard Filner, Susan Secoy, Joe Woollett
NOES:None
ABSENT:Mark Paone
ABSTAINED:Alice Angus
A motion was made by Committee Chair Joe Woollett to approve the November 7, 2001
minutes with the following corrections:
DRC #3675 Town & Country Carwash Paqe 3 paragraph 6 sentence 2 amended as follows:
The applicants had the building reviewed for compliance with "Feng
Shui" (The Chinese Art of Placement) and to advise them on exactly what needed to be painted
to draw more attention to the business.
DRC 3679 -Steak Escape page 6 paragraph 4 sentence 2 amended as follows:
T#ey~+va~ He wants to look at the project and get an answer that works for the building.
Sentence 4 amended as follows:
He stafes said that the other tenant needs to come up with an idea how the whole building could
be ~ upgraded, resolve sign problems, and bring the whole thing together.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for November 21, 2001
Page 4
REVIEW OF MINUTES: (Continued)
Sentence 7 amended as follows:
Ms. Koh feels this puts her client in a difficult position, +^ ~~~ so that they can't open the
business because they don't have cooperation from tenants or landlord.
Paragraph 6, sentence 3 amended as follows:
He would hope something can be worked out to change the existing parapet.
Page 7 paragraph 1, sentence 1 amended as follows:
Committee Member Joe Woollett understands there is a problem with the sign at the check
cashing place and asked if Ms. Koh was aware of this, to which ~e she answered, "Yes, and
that she had been told".
Paragraph 2, sentence 4 amended as follows:
Ms. Koh stated the project would be re-evaluated to go with the original proposal deep to keep
the building w~ele as is.
SECOND:Alice Angus
AYES:Alice Angus,
NOES:None
ABSENT:Mark Paone
ABSTAINED:None
Leonard Filner, Susan Secoy, Joe Woollett
MOTION CARRIED
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for November 21, 2001
Page 5
DRC No. 3669 -DONALD BERNARD
New landscape planter and replacement brick staircase at the front porch of an existing
residence in Old Towne.
230 S. Grand Street (Contributing Structure)
Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, Senior Planner -Historic Preservation
DRC Action: Final Determination
Continued from 9-5-01, 10-10-01 & 11-7-01 DRC meetings)
Committee Chair Joe Woollett explained that it is the jurisdiction of the Design Review
Committee to evaluate whether or not the installation of the brick steps is in compliance with the
code. He stated that the committee was aware of other buildings in the area that did not comply
with code, however, this application was presented to them and it is not the committee's
jurisdiction to decide if it should have been brought before them.
Mr. Kenneth Bryant -Attorney, spoke on behalf of Mr. Donald Bernard. Mr. Bryant referred to
the "Historic Preservation Element" citing the fact that two of the four properties in the booklet
have brick steps. He explained how Mr. Bernard put the brick steps in without any knowledge
that he was doing anything wrong and they did it because they thought they were improving
their property in accordance with the rules. Mr. Bryant stated that the rules talk about the
relationship of materials and how a variety of materials, when properly used, can add to the
distinctiveness of a neighborhood by using common materials such as brick. He shared
photographs of the property before and after the brick steps were installed. He asked that an
exception be made since Mr. Bernard had no idea he was violating any rules. Mr. Bryant asked
if there was some way to go before the Planning Commission for a variance because the bricks
improve the value and looks of the property.
The meeting was opened for public comments:
Jeff Frankel, 384 S. Orange Street, Old Towne Preservation Association - He stated that both
the Secretary of Interior Standards for Rehabilitation of Historic Structures and the Old Towne
Design Standards had numerous passages that conflict with what the applicant had done. He
explained that altering the entrances and porches, which are important in defining the overall
historic character of a building, diminishes the character of historic property. He felt that it would
set a precedent for anyone who wanted to remove historic fabric, replace it with something that
is inappropriate and come back before the DRC and say they did not know. He would like to
see the porch restored back to its original configuration with its original materials.
Tim Morton, 225 S. Grand Street- He stated that the porch is not gone and only the steps have
been altered. He felt that the job the mason had done on the steps was extremely attractive.
He thought the neighborhood was being turned into something that nobody really wanted except
certain people who held themselves up as experts.
Julie Kramer, 271 S. Grand Street -She stated that she liked the way the steps look. She felt
that no porch had been torn down because only the steps had been replaced.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for November 21, 2001
Page 6
DRC No. 3669 -DONALD BERNARD (Continued)
Robert Imboden, 45 Plaza Square - He was concerned with the process and the precedent that
this would create. He thinks that it is heading in the wrong direction if projects that have not
been approved are used as benchmarks.
Anita Bernard stated that the properties on North Grand Street near Chapman University and on
Cambridge Street are all doing brickwork. She has seen other historical houses putting in
modern windows and she wonders why they are picking on her.
Mr. Bryant had found that the California Environmental Quality Act states that minor and
reversal or appropriate changes to the original structure is proper. He found the General Plan
for Old Towne states that the City will work to assure that quality, safety and livability of the
housing stock in the City is continuously maintained and/or upgraded and that the City will
encourage the maintenance, preservation and upgrading of the quality of the residential
neighborhood. He said that no permit was required to replace the steps. He felt these steps
could be defined as a walkway and that there were no standards for walkways or planters.
Committee Member Susan Secoy stated that this is not a comparison of any other projects in
Old Towne and the committee is only reviewing the project brought before them. She
understands the hardship on the applicant, but the project has to be evaluated on the basis of
the Secretary of Interior Standards and this violated those standards. She also stated that there
is a review process in Old Towne when you want to modify your valuable property. The DRC is
here to assist the homeowners by reviewing their ideas as it is documented on a plan, and that
is how this situation could have been avoided.
Mr. Bryant explained that Mr. Bernard did not understand there was a process for review since
replacing the steps did not require a permit.
Committee Member Leonard Filner asked if the applicant had made any of the changes that the
committee had recommended initially, since no new or revised plans have been submitted to
the DRC tonight. The plans that were submitted originally included raised planter walls on both
sides of the steps. He would like to know if that applicant was willing to take into consideration
some of the recommendations that were made at the initial meeting on 9/5/2001.
Committee Member Susan Secoy stated that the steps had not been presented in the proper
format. There is a DRC Submittal Checklist that includes a plan, elevations and materials that
must be submitted before it is presented to the DRC.
Committee Chair Joe Woollett knows that the applicant would like to keep the steps, but he also
wants to know what the extent of the request is.
Mr. Bryant did not realize that there were issues other than the steps
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for November 21, 2001
Page 7
DRC No. 3669 -DONALD BERNARD (Continued)
Committee Member Susan Secoy explained that a proper submittal, which would include
drawings, samples of color and material, has not been submitted. The major concern is that the
brick element is not consistent with the Craftsman style home, and the examples cited in the
Historic Preservation Element shows the brick element on a Mediterranean style home.
Committee Member Leonard Filner further stated that the sloping sides of the steps are not
appropriate for this style of home.
Mr. Bryant thought this could be resolved if the problem was only the edge of the stairs.
Committee Member Leonard Filner said that a formal plan, requesting the squaring off of the
stairs, must be submitted.
Mr. Bryant said that he would recommend to his client to try and resolve it, so that the steps are
made compatible with the Craftsman style.
Committee Member Leonard Filner stated that he does not have an issue with the use of bricks
because it is listed in all the guidelines and preservation codes.
Committee Chair Joe Woollett explained that the examples given to the committee tonight would
either not have been approved, or the brick were used on a different style of building would
have been deemed appropriate. This committee would not have approved the brickwork done
by the applicant. Even though he is sympathetic to Mr. Bernard's situation, it would be wrong to
accept this because it would establish a precedent. This project can only be evaluated on the
basis of its conformance with the standards. The DRC cannot deviate from the given standards.
It has to be taken to a higher governing body such as the Planning Commission and the City
Council.
Mr. Bryant asked if this matter could be continued if they submitted a plan that conforms to the
Craftsman style.
Committee Member Susan Secoy replied yes.
Committee Member Alice Angus explained that the committee is in charge of upholding the
aesthetics and design compatibility as it relates to the historic district. The City's design
standards do talk about replacement materials and the integrity of those materials. It must be
consistent with the Secretary of Interior Standards. Covering the bricks with a different material,
making it more traditional to the style and period of this home, had been discussed at the
previous meeting. She would like to see some modifications to the design.
Mr. Bryant requested a continuance in order to discuss it with the City's professional staff to see
if there is a way to adjust the sides of the steps so that it would conform to the Craftsman style.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for November 21, 2001
Page 8
1. DRC No. 3669 -DONALD BERNARD (Continued)
Committee Member Susan Secoy stated that the minimum submittal requirements needed to
review this project have not yet been met. The Planning Division has that DRC Submittal
Checklist available at the counter.
Committee Chair Joe Woollett asked staff to provide Mr. Bryant with the guidelines that were
originally discussed with suggestions on the revisions that could be made and copies of the
minutes from the initial 9/5/2001 meeting.
A motion was made by Committee Chair Joe Woollett to continue the project until the first
meeting in January 2002.
SECOND:Susan Secoy
AYES:Alice Angus, Leonard Filner, Susan Secoy, Joe Woollett
NOES:None
ABSENT:Mark Paone
ABSTAINED:None
MOTION CARRIED
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for November 21, 2001
Page 9
2. DRC No. 3682 -CRABBY BOB'S SEAFOOD GRILL
Fagade remodel for a new tenant in an existing restaurant building.
2045 N. Tustin Street
Staff Contact: Chuck Lau, Associate Planner
DRC Action: Final Determination
John Rex -Architect, presented the project. The proposal is to remodel the existing restaurant
building with some minor changes to the exterior. New corrugated metal roofs and new lighting
fixtures have been added to compliment the seafood theme of the new restaurant. The existing
siding and stucco would remain the same and the entire building would be re-painted. The
colors of the building would be very close to what exists currently. The awnings would be green
and white and the window frames are red. The parking lot would be re-striped as necessary for
handicap accessibility.
Committee Chair Joe Woollett stated the neon should be a part of the signage submittal
package.
A motion was made by Committee Member Alice Angus to approve the project as submitted.
The approval was based upon the finding that the project design upholds community aesthetics
through the use of an internally consistent, integrated design theme and is consistent with all
adopted specific plans, applicable design standards and their required findings.
SECOND:Susan Secoy
AYES:Alice Angus, Leonard
NOES:None
ABSENT:Mark Paone
ABSTAINED:None
Filner, Susan Secoy, Joe Woollett
MOTION CARRIED
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for November 21, 2001
Page 10
3. DRC No. 3683 - SAV-ON DRUGS
Signage program for a new retail drug store.
4040 E. Chapman Avenue
Staff Contact: Chuck Lau, Associate Planner
DRC Action: Final Determination
Dennis Stout, the applicant, presented the project. He was proposing a scaled down version of
the typical signage for Sav-on minus some of the secondary signs.
Committee Chair Joe Woollett asked if the individual letters are internally illuminated, and noted
that the small "Exit Only" signs are illuminated cabinets.
The meeting was opened for public comments:
Roy Shahbazian 3808 E. Palm Avenue - He was pleased that the applicant was not
constructing a sign on the corner because of the pedestrian traffic. He was concerned with the
pedestrian access through the parking lot and near the drive thru window, which could create a
hazard. He thought that the pedestrians would not interfere with vehicular traffic if the parking
lot and the drive-thru window were placed at the rear of the structure.
Committee Member Susan Secoy noted the only item being reviewed was the signage and she
had no problem with the submittal.
A motion was made by Committee Member Alice Angus to approve the project with the
following condition.
The location of the two new freestanding signs shall comply with the code requirement for
minimum 15 ft. setback for vehicular sight distance.
The approval was based upon the following findings:
1. The proposed signage utilizes materials, colors, and design motifs that are compatible with
the building that is being identified.
2. The proposed signage will not adversely affect surrounding land uses or obscure adjacent
conforming signs.
3. that the project design upholds community aesthetics through the use of an internally
consistent, integrated design theme and is consistent with all adopted specific plans,
applicable design standards and their required findings.
SECOND: Leonard Filner
AYES: Alice Angus, Leonard
NOES: None
ABSENT: Mark Paone
ABSTAINED: None
Filner, Susan Secoy, Joe Woollett
MOTION CARRIED
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for November 21, 2001
Page 11
4. DRC No. 3684 -BOB & MARVA HITCHCOCK
Modification of an existing non-contributing detached stucco garage/2~d unit, into a
garage/workshop to match with the existing Craftsman Bungalow primary residence
195 N. Shaffer Street
Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, Senior Planner -Historic Preservation
DRC Action: Final Determination
Approved as Consent Item)
A motion was made by Committee Member Susan Secoy to approve the project as submitted.
The approval is based on the following findings.
1. The proposed work conforms to the standards and design criteria referenced and/or
recommended by the Design Review Committee or other reviewing body for the project.
2. The proposed work complies with the Secretary of the Interior Standards for Rehabilitation
and Guidelines for Rehabilitation and infill development guidelines within a Historic District.
3. The proposed work will neither adversely affect the significant architectural features of the
building, nor adversely affect the character of historical, architectural, or aesthetic interest
or value of the building, its site, or the surrounding area.
4. The project as proposed meets the exemption criteria under the City's Local CEQA
Guidelines.
SECOND:Alice Angus
AYES:Alice Angus, Leonard Filner, Susan Secoy, Joe Woollett
NOES:None
ABSENT:Mark Paone
ABSTAINED:None
MOTION CARRIED
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for November 21, 2001
Page 12
5. DRC No. 3686 -PATRICK & CYRUS JEANNETTE
New 553 sq.ft. addition to an existing 1,064 sq.ft. single-story Bungalow to include a
bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and stairs that lead to a 195 sq.ft. loft area.
324 N. Cleveland Street
Staff Contact: Daniel Ryan, Senior Planner -Historic Preservation
DRC Action: Final Determination
Patrick Jeannette, the owner/applicant, presented the project. He submitted a plan for a room
addition to the back of his house, which includes a bathroom, bedroom and a small loft. He had
an architect design the plans so they concur with the Old Towne Design Standards. The color
of the house, the composite type roof and the rock surrounding the front of the house would all
match the existing throughout the property.
The meeting was opened for public comments:
Jeff Frankel, 384 S. Orange Street, Old Towne Preservation Association - He wanted to review
the project and felt it was sympathetic to the original structure. He wanted to be sure the same
type of siding and wood frame windows are utilized.
Janet Crenshaw, 464 N. Shaffer Street -She wanted to know, since the garage goes all the
way across the back of the property, if there would be any room for a garden. Also she wanted
to know how much of the land would be covered by building.
Patrick Jeannette responded that the trees would remain by the garage and he estimated that
the building would cover 60-70% of the land.
Jeff Frankel noted that the plans did not show a line of demarcation, which is a requirement of
the guidelines.
Committee Chair Joe Woollett explained that the standards require the wall be off-set or that a
board be placed on the outside of the building to make it clear where the old and new structures
come together. He suggested the closet could be inset by 6 inches.
Chuck Lau, Associate Planner, suggested, in this particular case, that the closet could also
extent outwards even though it encroaches on the setback.
Committee Chair Joe Woollett also noticed that the elevation plan showed continuous steps
along the deck but it doesn't show on the floor plan, making the intent of the steps unclear.
Mr. Jeannette asked if the cement steps should concur with what is currently there, which are
pavers.
Committee Member Susan Secoy stated since this is new construction; it does not have to be
the same as what is currently there.
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for November 21, 2001
Page 13
5. DRC No. 3686 -PATRICK & CYRUS JEANNETTE (Continued)
Committee Chair Joe Woollett was concerned with the location of the steps, the door and the
corners. He questioned if the Uniform Building Code would require handrails with that many
steps. He informed the applicant that they might not want such a long expanse of steps
because it may require a handrail. Modifying the steps would also help to resolve the
awkwardness of the corner.
A motion was made by Committee Chair Joe Woollett to approve the project with the following
condition:
1. If the Uniform Building Code requires modification to the broad steps at the rear of the
structure, the revised plans shall be reviewed and approved by Mr. Dan Ryan, Senior
Planner -Historic Preservation.
The committee found the project to be in accordance with the following findings required for the
Old Towne District.
1. The proposed work conforms to the standards and design criteria referenced and/or
recommended by the Design Review Committee or other reviewing body for the project.
2. The proposed work complies with the Secretary of the Interior Standards for Rehabilitation
and Guidelines for Rehabilitation and infill development guidelines within a Historic District.
3. The proposed work will neither adversely affect the significant architectural features of the
building, nor adversely affect the character of historical, architectural, or aesthetic interest
or value of the building, its site, or the surrounding area.
4. The project as proposed meets the exemption criteria under the City's Local CEQA
Guidelines.
SECOND: Leonard Filner
AYES: Alice Angus, Leonard Filner, Susan Secoy, Joe Woollett
NOES: None
ABSENT: Mark Paone
ABSTAINED: None
MOTION CARRIED
City of Orange -Design Review Committee
Meeting Minutes for November 21, 2001
Page 14
6. DRC No. 3687 - ALUMA SYSTEM
New freestanding sign for an existing industrial facility.
412 W. Levers Place
Staff Contact: Chuck Lau, Associate Planner
DRC Action: Final Determination
Approved as Consent Item)
A motion was made by Committee Member Susan Secoy to approve the project as submitted.
The approval was based upon the finding that the project design upholds community aesthetics
through the use of an internally consistent, integrated design theme and is consistent with all
adopted specific plans, applicable design standards and their required findings.
SECOND: Leonard Filner
AYES: Alice Angus, Leonard Filner, Susan Secoy, Joe Woollett
NOES: None
ABSENT: Mark Paone
ABSTAINED: None
MOTION CARRIED
DRC 11-21-01 Minutes