The URL can be used to link to this page

Home My WebLink About12-11-2002 - Minutes TC CITY OF OR,ANGE CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION Minutes of a Regular Meeting: December �11, 2002 f. OPENING A. Flag Ptedge B. Roll Call: Present—Commissioners: D. Yarger, F. Sciarra, F. Petronella, M. Burkhardt Absent- Commissioners: J. Fortier Present—Staff: T. Mahood, C. Glass, Sgt. J. Burton, D. Allenbach, W. Winthers, P. Then C. Approval of Minutes: ♦ November 13, 2002 ACTION: Approve as published by the Recording Secretary. MOTION: F. Sciarra SECOND: M. Burkardt AYES: Unanimous II. CONSENT CALENDAR Ao Requested installation of red curb markings on both sides of the a(ley that services 5722 E. Stilfwater Ave. Barry McAleer 5722 E. Stillwater Ave., #47 Orange CA 92869 Ora!presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. There was no discussion of this request. ACTION: Approved the request for the installation of 30 ft. of red curb on both sides of the southerly alley that services 5722 E. Stillwater Ave. MOTION: . D. Yarger SECOND: F. Petronella AYES: Unanimous ��'�� End of Consent Calendar �� k�� Tape#CTC-22.10 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. .�"�°'' , Please contact the Recording Secretasy at(714)7445536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. � �Printed on Recvcled Paper ,� ._.�....,.:::..� f:.:._;�;�,�.,�>::�;� !:>::�,::.,.�:....,�:'�$ ',::;:.��.,:.:�.,::. :3:�i��,s�a�dt�t�'i1��.i�� Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—December 11,2002 pg.2 III. CONSIDERATION ITEMS 1. Requested installation of mid-block narrowings on Palmyra Ave. between Yorba St. and Esplanade St. Conclusion of the three-month trial. Steve Crouch 182 S. Craig Dr. Orange CA 29869 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report; p/ease refer to your copy. Chairman Yarger opened the public hearing for the following discussion: Steve Crouch— 1826 N. Shattuck PI. — Nobody believes that there has been any slowing down of traffic, residents indicate they would support narrowings only if they reduced speed by 10 MPH or more. If the narrowings only reduced speed by 2 MPH it obviously didn't do that. Almost all the residents feel that there needs to be something done besides the mid-block narrowings and the residents would support consideration of ST4P signs or diverters, that's what our next step is going to be. About the speeds I don't think that anybody can dispute the fact that the 85th percentile speed of 35 MPFt is too high, that is something that has to be reduced. I think the volumes are too high I think 3400 vehicfes on the west side of Palmyra is more than what you expect on a collector street. I know the city has expressed their thoughts on that as well that you might expect a collector street to have that high a volume but I disagree; I think this traffic needs to be directed to the arterial streets. I'm guessing that many of the vehicles using Palmyra are cut-through traffic and are not neighborhood residents, that's why the volumes are so high. Many other people on our Traffic Committee are very interested in STOP signs. When I put on my engineering hat I say that they may not be the best solution but when I put on my Traffic Committee Chairman's hat I say STOP signs should be considered. The survey shows that people are interested in trying this as a neighborhood what we really need is to be listened to, we don't need to be lectured in a condescending tone about why the Traffic Commission won't even consider the use of STOP signs. We do have options to do here but the use of diverters is one of those options, what we need you to do is open your ears, open your minds and listen to the neighbors. Commissioner Burkhardt—How many people? Steve Crouch— 53 Richard Hess — 308 S. Craiq Dr. — I am a member of the Traffic Committee. I was one of the one spearheading this so I guess I'm a little at fault on all of these problems. As I walked and got 18 of those signatures between my house and Prospect everybody except one person was for the diverters and there was 1 person adamantly opposed to them who also lives on the corner. When we had the meeting wifih Dave A(lenbach and Roger Hohnbaum several months ago about this problem and they denied the STOP signs they said we could try the narrowings or chicanes and if they didn't work we would end up putting the diverters in. The neighbors just want something done. I would request the Traffic Commission, if they could do it, write a letter to the community and tell them why you are denying STOP signs, give them code and tell them why because they all ask us when we're walking and we tell th�m th� �ity�on't �I�c��T�� s��s ��,� they want to know why not. I don't think it's up to us as a citizen to tell other citizens why the Traffic Commission is denying the STOP signs. ,,��,�. Tape#CTG22.10 of this City Traffic Corrunission meeting is available for pour review. ��` Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)7445536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. � �Printed on Recvcled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting-Lity Traffic Commission—December 11,2002 Pg.3 Chairman Yarqer — 1 think if you were here a few meetings ago when we talked about this and we discussed STOP signs, maybe you weren't here. Dave could you repeat the criteria showing when STOP signs are appropriate and you know what the ratio is, and Steve knows what that is also. Richard Hess — I came in just as the meeting was closing, I had been out of state and yes I did get a little of that and my experience, I was a V.P. of construction for The Irvine Company for 10 years and I left there and went to Chevron Land and handled the Cota de Casa community so I am very aware of traffic. This street runs parallel with a major street and it's a perfect place for people to cut through. I don't think you can look at it as the community when you built Santiago Hills which I worked with the City Council on many years ago and Joanne and Beyer and the City Council, those streets all curve so there's no problem with traffic speeds and people like we have. Tustin Ranch and Woodbridge, West Park all of these communities I was involved with building and I had �raffic people working on that and yes we did follow the new plan but Palmyra is a separate incident and I think it should be looked at as a separate item because it does run a block and a half off Chapman and it runs parallel with it so it's a perfect place for people to speed and a lot af cars to cut through. If I was still driving and not retired I'd use it as a cut-through street too. Brian Wade — 2703 E. Palmvra Ave — I have the delineators in front of my house. Qne of the reasons I would not like these in front of my house is safety. If you look at this installation right now there are only 2 delineators left of the original 6. Every day I hear peopfe hitting those, driving by at excessive speeds and knocking them down. I'm afraid one day someone will hit these and come into my living room. They reduce the property values. Commissioner Burkhardt— Did you know that when the chicanes were first offered as a test the actual permanent ones would be curbed and landscaped but they look like part of the sidewalk area they are just a bulge in the curb out into the roadway. The delineators you see today are the test installations. Brian Wade — Curb and landscape may be great but as everybody has so well spoken that people had consented to having them put in front of their house, we were not one of those, they we placed in front of our house by accident. They weren't moved they were just left there as a part of this test. If they are going to be put there permanently then maybe you should ask the residents and see what they say. Residents of the neighborhood don't think they will help. Dave Rowe — 3017 E. Ruth PI. —As a member of the Traffic Committee I also went out and canvassed the neighbors of Palmyra and got pretty consistenfi results with the exception of one person who said she did see the traffic slow down initially but over a period of a few weeks speeds increased back to their 35+ MPH. I am also one of those people who cut through over to Palmyra and I have found myself going out to LaVeta because I feel that I am part of the problem and it's not that much of an inconvenience, it's just the path of least resistance. Any part of the day with the exception of the school hours you'll go out on LaVeta and there's nobody there. �,��, Tape#CTC-22.10 of this City T'raffic Comrrussion meeting is available for your review. `�'� ;,! Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)744-553G in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. �I,!.!� +1�Printed on Recvcled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—December 11,2002 Pg.4 Chairman YarQer — Do you feel that a lot of the traffic is due from within the neighborhood which you just said yourself. Dave Rowe — I think so there's probably a good deal of local traffic and as a matter of fact that is the consensus 1 got from most of the neighbors. When I explained to them what #he diverters were as one of the options of our survey, most peopie liked it, I expected a greater negative response because of the inconvenience to the local neighbors but overwhelmingly l think that people feel that there probably isn't much we can do about the speed other than assign a cop out there permanently but there is something we can do about the volume. Chairman Yarger — I think you've probably hit the nail right on the head, you've talked about the speed slowing down and then it increased, I think in the beginning the narrowings slowed them down and then they went back to tlieir normal speed. The new suspension systems in vehicles has greatly improved, in new cars you don't even have to get on the accelerator real hard, they accelerate that quickly. I think people are probably up to 35-40 MPH even before they realize it. That's a pretty smooth street once you get by Craig Dr. where the cross-gutter is so I think a lot of it is that the neighbors who exceed the speed limit do it on other streets as well. Dave Rowe — It's frustrating to see this beautiful wide LaVeta, Yorba and there's nobody there except for the school hours. Ida Wade — 2703 E. Pafmvra Ave. — The test of the narrowings has eliminated our on- street parking and that is a major consideration for us. It inhibits our trash pick-up and street sweeping services. We're concerned that accidents may occur because cars are passing so much closer together. We've also noticed many of the delineators have been knocked down. Chairman Yarger —I imagine somebody purposely removed them because the wouldn't damage a car. Marna Miller— 2736 E. Palmvra Ave. — It's true that some of the problems are caused by neighbors but other problems are caused by people racing through from Prospect. When you drive down your street and you'd like to turn into your driveway and some joker comes roaring down the street behind you from Prospect, blows his horn at you, cuts around on the left and then give you the bird and then race on to Yorba; fihat's not my next door neighbor, that's the thru traffic. I'm concerned with spending the taxpayer's money I know it shouldn't be an issue but it is. It's my understanding it costs about $600 to put in a STOP sign and it's several thousand dollars for each chicane or diverter that is installed. I think since people want STOP signs and as it's fiscally responsible that it's worth a try. Chairman Yaraer— We have to look at these installations individually, do they meet the criteria because we have criteria we have to go by. It may end up that STOP signs may be the way, but there may be another solution, and I think Steve is probably working some ideas on that may slow traffic. Unfortunately you will have submit a new petition and let us study it. �,�n Tape#CTC-22.10 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. `�* ' Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)7445536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. � �Printed on Recvcled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Tra�c Commission—December 11,2002 Pg.5 Marna Miller — Our street is a rather unique situation from some of the other situations that you encounter. Traffic is a problem everywhere and we realize that but the process takes so very Iong it becomes very frustrating for all of us. It's been well over a year since we started this request and got the chicanes installed as a test. People thought that the posts were not intimidating enough, they didn't have a permanent look about . them. It didn't seem that it gave us a fair shake for trying them because they didn't resemble what would be there at all. Richard Smith — 3242 E. Palmvra Ave. — If you're going to put these traffic diverters on the west side of Prospect then you've got myself and my neighbors blocked off as far as in and out of their driveway. If that's the only answer I suggest you put them on the east side of Prospect which is adjacent to the school yard which wouldn't hurt anything and the entry to the driveway of the other homes are far enough away that I think you could get by with it. Chairman Yarger closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for final comments and a motion. Commissioner Burkhardt— In knowing that there are other options for the neighborhood to consider for mitigation on their street, they have met the requirements for speed and car count on the specific street over the 85th of the percentile, which opens them up to specific mitigation on that street. It's not our position as a Commission to tell them what they should do but to submit through the program and pick a mitigation that they can get a consensus within the neighborhood and then go for implementation whatever they request. I'd sure like to think that all the work that we've done to identify, it's very rare that we get something before us that meets the warrant and we can do implementation for mitigation through the Neighborhood �"raffic Management Program. I'd like to see it work. ACTION: Denied the permanent installation of the mid-block narrowings on Palmyra Ave. between Yorba St. and Esplanade St. MOTION: F. Petronella SECOND: M. Burkhardt AYES: Yarger, Burkhardt, Petronella ABSTAIN: F. Sciarra ,,�� ' Tape#CTG22.10 of this City Traffic Cominission meeting is available for your review. �p Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)7445536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. � �Printed on Recvcled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—December 11,2002 pg.g 2. Request for the implementation of protected left-turn phasing at the intersection of Cambridge St. and Taft Ave. Phyllis Goldin 824 E. Palmdale Ave. Orange CA 92865 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. Chairman Yarger opened the public hearing for the following discussion: Phvllis Goldin — 824 E. Palmdale Ave — Favor of phasing. I'm glad you will continue to look at this. We feel that traffic has increased on our street by the Fire Dept. since you installed the speed humps on Shaffer St. Scott Hammond - 1753 N. Cambridqe St. — Favor of phasing. There's probably been an accident at this location every weekend for the last 30 years. I was here back when this was a 4-Way STOP and then it became a signal and the accidents got worse. We appreciate the fact that you will continue to look at the area. I'm not a traffic expert and I don't know how to make it better but I think the left-turn phasing was something just to get the ball moving. The speed humps on Shaffer have directed a lot of traffic through all the neighborhoods in that community onto Cambridge, including the Fire Dept. Chairman Yarger closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for final comments and a motion. ACTION: Denied the request but placed this location on the signal priority list for future evaluation. MOTION: D. Yarger SECOND: F. Sciarra AYES: Unanimous �� End of Consideration Calendar �� IV.ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS None this month. V. ORAL PRESENTATIONS None this month. ,,��... Tape#CTC-22.10 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. r�'`' Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. � �Printed on Recvcled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—December 11,2002 pg. 7 V1. ADJOURNMENT After discussion of today's Agenda items of the City Traffic Commission was concluded, and as there were no further requests for action under Oral Presentations, the Chairman adjourned this session of the City Traffic Commission at 6:15 p.m. The next regular meeting of the City Traffic Commission is scheduled for Wednesday— February 12, 2003 at 5:30 p.m. Respectfully submitted, CITY OF ORANGE Phyllis Then Recording Secretary Traffic Engineering Division CITY OF ORANGE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS TRAFFIC ENGINEERING DIVISION 300 E. CHAPMAN AVE. ORANGE cA 92866 PH: (714} 744-5536 FAx: (714) 744-5573 � Dec-Minutes[C:1MyDoclThenp] ,,:a� ` Tape#CTC-22.10 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. a�'`' :r,, Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)744-5536 in this regard,advance norice is appreciated. �I,y,! . �1�'Printed on Recvcled Paper