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Home My WebLink About04-17-2002 - Minutes TC CITY OF �RANGE CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION Minutes of a Regular Meeting: April 17, 2002 f. OPENING A. Flag Pledge B. Roll Call: Present—Commissioners: D. Yarger, J. Fortier, F. Sciarra, F. Petronella, M. Burkhardt Present—Staff: R. Hohnbaum, C. Glass, Sgt. J. Burton, D. Alienbach, W. Winthers, P. Then C. Approval of Minutes: ♦ March 13, 2002—Approve as published by the Recording Secretary. MOTION: F. Sciarra SECOND: F. Petronella AYES: Unanimous II. CONSENT CALENDAR A. Request for the installation of a "30 IVIINUTE" time limit parking zone at 121/�25 fV. Lemon St. Josephine Sixta 121 N. Lemon St. Orange CA 92866 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. There was no discussion of this request. ACTION: Deny installation of a "30 MINUTE" time limit parking zone at 121/125 N. Lemon St. MOTION: D. Yarger SECOND: F. Petronella AYES: Yarger, Fortier, Petronella, Burkhardt ABSTAIN: F. Sciarra—conflict of interest. .�M. Tape#CTG22.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. ��' Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)7445536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. � �Printed on Recvcled Paner . �,.. �,;,:a. �.: - `�:,�� '.,� i::::�,.�" ��:��>�.��,� 3;�...;.".^'...:.s'.a�tii�i�s?+''�+" � �4:,y1:�n�.�..._.F:.. , -:'3�x;�.l:�;�4��`�'.''T��,".fi��t Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—April 17,2002 pg.2 _ B. Request for the installation of additional red cu.rb markings on Prospect St. at Almond Ave. Judith Green 3208 E. Almond Ave. Orange CA 92869 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. Chairman Yarger opened the public hearing for the following discussion: Larry Korb, 251 S. Violet Ln. — In favor of request. This is a dangerous intersection and you really have to move out into the traffic lane in order to see oncoming vehicles. There is no need to park here. There is a vacant gas station at the corner, a retirement home which provides on-site parking for visitors and employees, and a residence whose side frontage on Prospect really isn't necessary as they could park around the corner on Violet. Judith Green, 320 E. Almond Ave. — In favor of request. This is a very dangerous location because cars tofially obscure the curb lane and if there is a green light the cars are coming through Chapman you cannot see them in the middle lane. They are usually going 40 MPH and you have to pull out in order to see. Commissioner Burkhardt— Is there a lot of cars and high speeds on Prospect? � Judith Green— Much more than there used to be since this has connected to Collins. Chairman Yarger closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for further discussion and a motion. Vice-Chairman Fortier — I concur with these people, when I investigated this location I found it very difficult to see southbound traffic if I was trying to make a left turn out of Violet onto Prospect. I think there is accident potential at this location and warrants the installation of this additional red curb to improve visibility. ACTION: Approve the installation of 50 feet of red curb on the v�rest side of Prospect St. north of Almond Ave. MOTION: J. Fortier SECOND: M. Burkhardt AYES: Unanimous �� End of Consent Calendar �� M � Tape#CTG22.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. �« Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. �Printed on Recvcled Paver Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission April 17,2002 Pg.3 Ilt. C4NSIDEI�ATION ITEMS 1. Request to prohibit left-turn access from Tustin St. onto westbound Adams Ave. Kevin Steckler 1012 E. Adams Ave. Orange CA 92867 Oral presentation is based on the written staff repor�; please refer to your copy. Chairman Yarger opened the item for discussion. Kevin Steckler, 1012 E. Adams Ave. — In favor of request. We moved into the neighborhood in 1994, they closed the street down both sides and approved speed humps but then it got kicked out. The reason we know the traffic has been slowing down is because of the work last quarter on Tustin St. so people couldn't turn onto Adams. People exit the Post Office and they miss 2 lights by using Adams. I agree the neighborhood is zoned to have 2,300 cars a day but there is only 60 houses so that's 40 cars per house. I know there are other streets off that but there are also other access points into the neighborhood and where I live, toward Cambridge, it's obvious all day to watch people coming from the Post Office down our street. I disagree, the traffic has gone down about 300 cars but that's from the residual effects of when you closed the streef for 2 months last quarter. Commissioner Burkhardt — The City has a new program where traffic mitigation can be applied depending on what the variables are for traffic through the Residential � Neighborhood Traffic Management Program (RNTMP). I think the vehicle you're looking for to solve your problem is best addressed potentially through one of those measures. Vice-Chairman Fortier — Could a lot of those cars be going to California Elementary School? Kevin Steckler— No it's obvious that the traffic is coming from the Post Office. The traffic study was perFormed during the Easter school break so the numbers were down. My house is at the other end of the street and at 4 pm school is over for the day and everyone is gone, from 4-6 pm traffic on the street looks like a freeway. 2,200 cars a day doesn't seem to compute. Roqer Hohnbaum, Asst. Citv Enaineer—One suggestion was to go through the RNTMP. Staff did a quick analysis to see if it would apply to that program and we found finro factors. The volume of traffic and the speed of that traffic did not meet the minimum thresholds set by our City Council. While we had the Caltrans detour in place I would assume that some of the volume decreased because there is a left-turn demand at that location. Where that demand comes from whether it's through or in the neighborhood most likely there was an increase on the other streets to compensate for that lack of access to this neighborhood. Chairrnan Yarqer — As I recall from when we did that temporary closure of Adams we had people from other parts of the neighborhood upset because the traffic was shifted onto these other streets so we do try to distribute it evenly. ,,�„., Tape#CTC-22.03 of this City Traffic Cominission meeting is available for your review. r�� Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)744-5536 in this regard,advance norice is appreciated. �Printed on Recvcled Paner Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—April 17,2002 Pg.4 Commissioner Sciarra — There is a tremendous amount of traffic southbound on Tustin that turns right onto Adams. Commissioner Burkhardt — Based on the lower car count is it just that people are speeding in your neighborhood as opposed more cars? Kevin Steckler—The speeding is incredible, I just got a parking ticket because I parked my car in front of the driveway so we could play ball on the driveway. Commissioner Burkhardt — I think the Chairman is right, maybe not a turn diverter but obviously this neighborhood has been before us many time with some form of a traffic problem. I don't know what the solution is. 6t seems that the only solution is through the RNTMP. If the studies were done during school vacation that's critical and maybe it needs to be re-done. Dave Allenbach, Transportation Anal�st — The traffic study was conducted while sc�tool was in session and prior to the Easter break. We have a fairly substantial right-turn move during the morning peak and most of the vehicles we observed turning from Tustin onto Adams had children in them. Our peak hour turn counts were conducted 7-8:30 am and 4:30-5:30 pm., in the evening obviously school would not have been in session. In January 1990, the PM peak left-turn volume of 80 vehicles and in December 199� we had a PM peak turning volume of 85 vehicles and most recently, March 1992 the PM peak left-turn volume was 40 vehicles; so this traffic has been reduced by 50%. Chairman Yarger—That sounds like they were going to the school. Kevin Steckler—That was all from that one box? Dave Allenbach — I conducted the turn count myself. , Commissioner Sciarra—There is actually more right turns at this location. Dave Allenbach —That is correct, it's not all that surprising because it's quite a bit easier to turn right than left. Kevin Steckler— I count between 12 and 20 cars a minute so I would love to go out and count with you. This has been here for years; we keep bringing it before you. There were speed humps approved that were not installed. Is it really safe to have that many cars going through? Do you do speed tests, people fly through there because the volumes are so high because we have people who aren't from that neighborhood. Chairman Yaraer— Once we start taking left-turn lanes off in one neighborhood it grows, how would you like to drive through Orange and be unable to make a left turn anywhere except a traffic signal? We have done the counts, we're not giving you phony figures. Commissioner Burkhardt—Can we look at enforcing speed in that area? ��A. Tape#CTC-22.03 of this Ciry Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. �� Please contact.the Recording Secretary at(714)74-4-5536 in this regazd,advance norice is appreciated. �Pxinted on Recvcled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission April 17,2002 Pg.5 Kevin St�ckler—What about the neighborhood on the other side of Tustin St. you cannot make a left turn there? They are entit{ed to a turn lane too so why not take it from us and give it to them? Commissioner Burkhardt— [s there anything we can look at to help these folks? RoQer Hohnbaum — As I said before we compared this to the RNTMP and we find the street does not meet the minimum threshold sa that indicates that we probably don't need to mitigate the area. As far as the left-turn assignment to the east or west, we are showing that there is a greater need for left turns for the west side. We did not send out notices to the entire neighborhood (area bounded by Tustin, Katella, Collins and Cambridge}. People need to access from different points, we don't know where they are coming from, how they're coming off the freeway, whether they're coming from east, west or south but if you start restricting access at any one point permanently, then I do believe that other parts of the neighborhood need to have their say because I think they will want to say something about what will be an increase. Dave Allenbach — We had a trial street closure for 6 months where we prohibited westbound traffic move westerly of the commercial area on Adams Ave. We were not getting any compliance during that 6-month period and as a consequence the City Council elected to remove the temporary closure and re-open the street to what it is today. With regard to the installation of speed humps, Adams Ave. was intended to be the first street in the city to have them. We sent a petition to the area residents and it was never returned because the residents on Adams Ave. could not agree on where the speed humps were to be installed. We could look at that issue again. In regards to traffic volume. This street does not meet the minimum requirements called out in the RNTI!/IP to consider any type of turn diverter strategy; however, if the residents would like to explore speed humps we could look at that at a later date, if they would send a letter of request. Roger Hohnbaum — If you don't meet the minimum thresholds you're still going to be denied for speed humps. There are two issues being discussed, speed and volume. The counted volumes are within the range for this street, this still is a pubfic street, it's not private and people use your neighborhood for ingress and egress. Cut through traffic is something we would like to discourage but it's legal and the volumes are stil( below the thresholds set forth in the RNTMP. As far as speeds, we can conduct an updated speed survey it has been 8 years since the last one was performed. Once you put the signs up that say what the speed limit is and people don't obey it other types of devices can be ignored as well. Enforcement is a very important tool in keeping drivers educated on what they should and shouldn't be doing on our streets. Sqt. Jeff Burton, OPD Traffic Bureau — We can provide enforcement to the area. We have been out there several times in the past. We have not received any complaints in the last 7-8 months. When we do go out we generally find that the speeds are not excessive enough to cite. Steve Steckler — I understand the street is rated for 2,300 vehicles per day but is that really normat, and shouldn't be addressed? I'm confused by this number, it just seems mathematically impossible, there's not that many houses on the street. �r„ Tape#CTG22.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. _� Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. iy �Printed on Recvcled Paver Niinutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—April 17,2002 Pg.6 � Chairman Yaraer — You should remember we're talking about trips, not cars. As an example let's say your at your household your wife doesn't work; you go to work and go home, she takes the children to school and then comes home, she goes grocery shopping and then comes home, she goes back to school and picks the children up then returns home, she takes the children to an after school activity and then comes home, she has made 10 trips that day; it ad�ds up now you multiply that by the number of households on your street, that is how the number becomes so high. Steve Steckler— It just seems that there is a lot of cut-through traffic and maybe it's just our end of the block where it's so obvious. Commissioner Burkhardt — Taking out the left turn access isn't going to solve your problem the real issue is how can you better manage the traffic on your street, does there need to be better signs, does there need to be more enforcement, a choker to slow speeds. Vice-Chairman Fortier — That's why we have standards so we can rnake decisions based on these standards. Everyone wants STOP signs and if we put them in because people asked for them you would have gridlock, it wouldn't be efficient. That's why we have established these standards. Commissioner Sciarra — The majority of cars going west on Adams are more from rr�otorists turning right from Tu�tin St. and therefore it doesn't make sense to remove the !eft-turn access. Commissioner Burkhardt— I would suggest you make your request through the RNTI0/1P, if your request is denied then you may appeal to a higher authority. Dr. Susanne Gaskins, 1118 E. Adarr�s Ave. — In favor of request. We're more concerned with the spe�d traffic is going. This is a serious problem. The neighborhood is changing from older residents to younger families with small children. I moved into the home 2 years ago and I've been astonished, I don't allow my 4 year old to play out front at all. There are 3 STOP signs between Tustin and Cambridge, at Lincoln, California and Cambridge and these signs don't seem to have any effect on speed at all. You can hear the noise of tires screeching when they get to the STOP sign, if they bother to stop at all. I think while volume is important I feel speed is a much more important issue. I realize our request didn't include anything in terms of speed humps or traffic enforcement but I think the City would have a gold mine if they had a police officer on Adams, they could hand out tickets right and left. � Commissioner Sciarra — Do you find this speed mostly occurs at night, or morning, when? Susanne Gaskins— It's all day long. ��r.,, Tape#CTC-22.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is avaiIable for your review. ��"� Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)7445536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. � �Printed on Recvcled Paner Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—April 17, 2002 Pg. 7 Chairman Yarger — The Police Dept. only has 12 motor officers and they're not all on duty at the same time and we have a city of about 25 square miles, if you would give them a call I think you will find them to be very responsive and efficient. But if someone doesn't call they will be in other area�. Commissioner Burkhardt— Last month we approved a policy of installing advisory signs "DRIVE CAREFULLY- PROTECT OUR CHILDREN"; perhaps these could be utilized here. Roqer Hohnbaum — It would be appropriate adjacent to the school where there is a high concentration of children playing. We were hoping not to proliferate them out throughout residential neighborhoods because people get irritated with having signs stuck in front of their house, and if they are all over they lose their effectiveness. I've heard the commentary here today and I think l understand the problem, we have people that look and one sign and disregard it, it's the speed limit sign. Susanne Gaskins — To be honest I'm not sure signs, in and of themselves are the answer. If people are going to disregard a speed limit sign I'm not sure they're going to pay too much more attention to a sign to "DRIVE CAREFULLY- PROTECT OUR CHILDREN". Roqer Hohnbaum — We can increase police enforcement in the area, it wouldn't be constant but it would be concentrated for a problem area. We could do an update of the 85t"' percentile to see if it reaches those thresholds as well,. Susanne Gaskins—What's the possibility of speed humps? Dave Allenbach — The requirement, per our ordinance, is to have an 85t" percentile speed on the street ofi 33 MPH or higher. The 6ast speed study showed an 85tn percentile of 32-34 MPH. We had programmed 5 speed humps to be installed on this street and as I mentioned earlier dnre generated a petition and sent it to the neighborhood but it was never completed and returned. We received a few phone calls, mostly from the people who lived adjacent to where the speed humps were to be installed and they were opposed to them, and I believe that's why we didn't get the petitior� back because we could not get a majority of the residents to agree on them. Susanne Gaskins — Can you do the study and perhaps install the speed humps if we meet the threshold? Roqer Hohnbaum — Yes. We would like a written request from anyone in the neighborhood that wishes to initiate the study so we have something to start our files and begin our sfiudies with. They are not cheap, they take staff time so we want to make sure there is a neighborhood consensus of some kind that initiates this. Chairman Yarqer-Was Adams Ave. dedicated as a emergency response route? Dave Allenbach — No, Adams is not on our list as a by-pa�s street. Basically those are collector streets having a fire station direct access such as Maple, Palm, Palmyra that run parallel to an arterial for quite a distance. The Fire Dept. would have input should be get to the point where we were going to install speed humps. ��.��_, Tape#CTC-22.03 of this Ciry Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. t� � Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)744-5536 in this regard,advance,norice is appreciated. ��,�'� ;�'Printed on Recvcled Paner Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—April 17,2002 pg,g Don Conqer. 1019 E. Adams Ave. — In favor of request. There are speed humps on Shaffer St. adjacent to a fire station. Chairman Yaryer — That was a test area and the Fire Dept. is not real happy about it either. Chair�nan Yarger closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for further discussion and a motion. Commissioner Sciarra — In view of the fact that the traffic volume for westbound traffic is actually due more to right turns from Tustin St. rather than left-turns I would suggest we deny the request to prohibit the left-turn access from Tustin St. onto Adams Ave. ACTION: Deny the request to prohibit left-turn access frorn Tustin St. onto westbound Adams Ave. MOTION: F. Sciarra SECOND: F. Petronella AYES: Unanimous 2. Request for the installa#ion of an "All-Way" STOP control device at the intersection of Grand St. and Culver Ave. Delores Bertram 414 S. Grand St. Orange CA 92866 Oral presentation is based on the written staff report; p/ease refer to your copy. Chairman Yarger opened the item for discussion. Joan Newcomb. 429 S. Grand St. — In favor of request. There is a definite speed problem on our street and I have contacted the Police Dept. on many occasions and have had officers out to pick up items that come off cars as they go through the dip, and to stop joy-riders because people enjoy going through this intersection. There may not be enough cars to justify a STOP sign but there isn't enough Police to enforce the speed, and they have told me they won't issue citations for anyone going under 45 MPH because of court issues. We would love a speed limit sign to be installed. Commissioner Petronella— If a STOP sign were installed do you think people would stop fior it? Joan Newcomb— I do. �a� Tape#CTC-22.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. e� Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. � �Printed on Recvcled Paner Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—April 17,2002 pg, g Vice-Chairman Fortier— I drove through the area in preparation of today's meeting and I couldn't help but slow down as I approached the dip partly because ( could see it, and also because there are warning signs telling me there is a dip. STOP signs are not designed to control speed, we do not install them as a speed deterrent. Grand St. has a prima facia speed limit of 25 MPH, any residential area is an automatic 25 MPFi. When we install speed limit signs and if the 85th percentile is beyond that speed we have to increase the actual speed limit to the speed people are actually driving, it's the law. Joan Newcomb—So how do we control the speed? Commissioner Burkhardt — There is also the safety factor involved and under that circumstance we may consider it. RoQer Hohnbaum, Asst. City� iy neer — The first thing we do when people talk about hazards is check accident history and our history is only as good as the number of accidents that have been reported to the Police and we didn't have any for thi� intersection. That indicates to me that there is something more than a standard cross- gutter and that is evident by the scratches that are on the street that indicates people are not traversing them properly. The fact that they are going too fast, the signs will not slow them down. In fact the signs could present a new hazard, if you are on �he side street coming down Palmyra and you think that person is going to stop at that sign and he doesn't the accident could be quite damaging. I do believe we may have a safety issue, we're getting reports of peopfe losing equipment, I see the scratches on the street and the City has posted the cross-gutters. Intersection geometry is one of considerations that warrants a STOP sign, typically we're looking at such things as sight distance and vertical obstructions. lf you wish to take this cross-gutter as a form of adverse geometry I believe a STOP sign could be considered. Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — If a "4-Way" STOP is approved the DIP signs will come out and they will be replaced with STOP AHEAD signs and legends, we virill also install 30 ft. of red curb at each corner of the intersection in all directions to provide sight clearance and we will a(so instail the pavement legends. Joan Newcomb—Why isn't there red curb at the STOP sign at Culver? Dave Allenbach — That STOP sign was installed prior to the City adopting this vision zone policy. Joan Newcomb— Is that true in Old Towne to have that provision? Dave Allenbach—When we receive a request we retrofit them. We don't go out and add 30 ft. of red curb to existing STOP signs but where we have "2-Way" STOP as in this case where we don't have existing red curb then we would include them as part of the installation of a "4-Way" ST�P. Peter Burtram. 414 S. Grand St. — In favor of request. People are going pretty fast and . that in combination to the dip is what creates the problem. I'm afraid someone will lose control as they go over the dip and end up in my front yard where my children are playing. ��,, Tape#CTG22.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. �� Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)744-553G in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. �Printed on Recvcled Paner Minutes of a Regular Meeting-Lity Traffic Commission—April 17,2002 Pg. 10 Karen Infeld, 421 S. Grand St. — In favor of request. In early March someone's spare tire f(ew out of the back of a truck and hit my house, and i'm the 3�d house south of Culver and that is 125 feet away from the intersection. I wonder how much control that vehicle really had, this is definitely a safety issue and not just a matter of speed. Chairman Yarger closed the pubfic hearing and returned the item to the Commission for further discussion and a motion. Chairman Yarger— I think we have a safety problem here. These vehicles are becoming airborne and losing equipment that is a problem. Vice Chairman Fortier— I agree, from what I'm hearing when people hit the dip they are losing controf and I think it's a safety problem and that does meet the warrants for installing a ST�P sign if we choose to do so. ACTION: Approve the installation of an "All-Way" STOP control device at the intersection of Grand St. and Culver Ave. MOTION: D. Yarger SECOND: F. Petro.nella AYES: Unanimous IV.ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS None this month. V. ORA� PRESENTATIONS Nick Draqanov, 355 Via La Canada — I live in the Chapman/Hewes area and my concern is northbound traffic on Hewes trying to turn left onto Chapman Ave. to get to the freeway and the tremendous volume of cars coming in from Serrano Hills and maybe one or two cars can � make the left turn onto Chapman during the green phase. I read in the paper a couple of years ago that a protected left-turn phase was going to be added to this signal, what is the status of that? (e-mail address is nickswc@socal.rr.com) Roqer Hohnbaum, Asst. Citv Enqineer— I'm not sure. I know it has been discussed in our Capital Improvement Projects but I'm not sure of it's status, however, I can check it for you and get in touch with you about it. Nick Draganov—That left turn for northbound Hewes onto westbound Chapman there are a lot of pedestrians in the crosswalk. My first ticket when I was 16 was for going through a crosswalk while a pedestrian was present, I always remember that ticket. I suggest that the Police Dept. set up at the Mobil Gas Station because I constantly see people making the left turn while people are in the crosswalk, and I see this every day and I think that is a safety issue. ,��.�. ' Tape#CTG22.03 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. �� ' Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)744-553G in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. � �Printed on Recvcled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—Apri! 17, 2002 Pg. 11 VI. ADJOURNMEIVT After discussion of today's Agenda items of the City Traffic Commission was concluded, and as there were no further requests for action under Oral Presentations, the Chairman adjourned this session of the City Traffic Commission af 4:50 p.m. The next regular meeting of the City Traffic Commission is scheduled for Wednesday — May 8, 2002. Respecifully submitted, CITY OF ORANGE Phyllis Then Recording Secretary Traffic Engineering Division CfTY OF ORANGE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS TRAFFIC ENGINEERING DIVISION 300 E. CHAPMAN AVE. ORANGE CA 92866 PH: (714)744-5536 F,vc: (714)744-5573 �March-Minutes[CTC Disk/Thenpj ��,� Tape#CTG22.03 of this Ciry Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. ��. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(714)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. 1►y �Printed on Recvcied Pauer