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05-13-2009 - Minutes TC CITY OF ORANGE CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION Minutes of a Regular Meeting: Ma,�3, 2ooA I. OPENING A. Flag Pledge B. Roll Call Present — Commissioners: J. Beil, L. Dick, M. Lebeau Absent— Commissioners: W. King, N. Lall Present—Staff: A. Farahani, D. Allenbach,W. Winthers, Sgt. D.Adams, C. Perez C. Approval of Minutes • Apri18, 2009 ACTION: Approved as published by the Recording Secretary. MOTION: M. Lebeau SECOND: L. Dick AYES: Unanimous ABSTAIN: II. ORAL PRESENTATIONS None this meeting. III. CONSENT CALENDAR None this meeting. � Tape#CTC-29.o3 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. J Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. GG `�y �"`�=�Printed On Rec � �May'o9[N:/Traffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes] ycled Paper --_ - - Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—May i3,2009 Pg• 2 IV. CONSIDERATION ITEMS 1. Request for the installation of time limit parking (green curb) in front of the rental office at 222 S. McCoy Rd. Cookie Earl. S. McCoy Rd. Orange CA 92866 The oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion. Commissioner Dick — What is the annual cost of maintaining green curb for one space? Dave Allenbach Trans�ortation Analyst — I'm not sure, maybe $5 a foot for 22 ft. and then we have to repaint them on an annual basis. Commissioner Dick— $loo to $i25 per year? Amir Farahani Citv Traff'ic Engineer - $20o per year. It depends, since it's only one stall it's only a small segment its going to be a small amount for painting it. Commissioner Dick— Do we contract that? Amir Farahani Citv Traffic Engineer— We do it in-house if it's one or two stalls. Commissioner Dick — I guess I was wondering when does this become financially appropriate. Our surmise is that there is generally adequate parking within a reasonable walking distance to the office. If I were renting units I want to make it as easy as I can for them to rent the units. Do we have the flexibility for allowing them to pay for the green curb? Chairman Beil —We have the proponent here, I want to hear from her. Dave Allenbach, Trans�ortation Anal ��st— I don't think we do at this time. Wayne Winthers, Asst. Citv Attorney — I don't believe we have the ability within our Code to impose such a charge upon a citizen for painting of public curbs. Commissioner Dick— If we wanted to whom would we have to talk to? Wayne Winthers, Asst. Citv Attorney — I think the State Legislature, because I don't think it would be allowed under the State codes, because we'd then be providing city services to those who can afford it and giving them an inside track � Tape#CTG29.o3 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. J Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. GL ����,� / �May'o9�N:/Traffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes] �`�'`�Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—May i3,2009 pg• 3 to get something over those who couldn't. Assume for a moment you wanted to give this to somebody because they have the ability to pay, you say, "If you can pay for it I'll give it to you, if you can't I'm not going to give it to you." That certainly would not be fair to the ne�t proponent who came to us and said they couldn't afford to pay for it but have the same needs. Commissioner Dick— How do we justify parking permits? Wavne Winthers Asst. City Attorney — That benefits a larger group of people and they are paying for the physical permit, we don't make them pay for the curb markings or the signs, they pay for the permit that goes on their vehicle. Now you're looking more for the common good as opposed to one parcel. Cookie Earl, S. McCo�. — The hours that I am open in the evening is from 5:30 to 7:3o p.m., and Saturday& Sunday from 9:0o a.m. to 5:0o p.m. I actually have people call me and say there is no parking so they won't stop. If you would allow it I have a resident handy-man that would take care of it. There are �8 units and at the end of the complex there's a man who has a taxi and � personal cars, he parks them all on the street. He moves them when the street sweeper comes and then they're right back there when the street sweeper leaves. I'm home on Tuesday and I'm out there making sure they ticket any parked cars because I want those streets clean. I keep a very nice clean apartment complex. Commissioner Dick— When would you see this being most beneficial to you? Cookie Earl, S. McCoy Rd. — In the evenings and on the weekends. Commissioner Dick—After 6 pm the green curb would allow you no virtue. Cookie Earl, S. McCo�Rd. — There is an apartment complex over on Feldner and Palm across from Portola and they have a green stripe, that's where I got the idea and it says 3o minute parking in white letters on it. I just drove by it the other day to make sure it was still there. Chairman Beil — Sometimes things get installed that haven't come through the Traffic Commission. Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for additional comments, and a motion. Amir Farahani City_Traffic Engineer — I'd like to make a correction to what I said earlier. $20o which we calculated was based on painting curbs and also signs that have to be installed. Commissioner Dick— Signs are a one time event and they're good for how long? � Tape#CTC-29.o3 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. G �`y G A;� / �May'o9[N:/Traffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes) ��`�"Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—May i3,2009 Pg• 4� Amir Farahani, City Traffic En ineer — They're good for at least 5-� years until they fade. Commissioner Dick— So the annual cost would be significantly less than that. Commissioner Lebeau — Reading the City code it says parking for one hour or less, so it can be for less than one hour? Dave Allenbach, Transportation AnalXst — Yes, it can be less than one hour, we would put a sign or stencil the curb with the time duration that particular location allowed. Commissioner Dick— Would it also outline the days or just the time? Amir Farahani, Citv Traffic Engineer — It would allow us to post it to specify Monday through Saturday and then the hours. Commissioner Lebeau — Would the duration be within the Commission's discretion or would it be subject to the City Traffic Engineer's discretion? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analvst — I believe the proponent had asked for an hour, but certainly if you want to make it shorter you can do that. Chairman Beil — How much spill-over parking is going out not only on Almond Ave., but the neighboring streets of Feldner and elsewhere around there in the evening? Dave Allenbach, Trans�ortation Anal� — In this particular case the demand for on-street parking related to the apartments is primarily along both sides of McCoy, and the south side of Almond adjacent to the apartments, so it does not appear to be spilling out elsewhere into tlie neighborhood. Now there is some demand for parking along Almond Ave. and to the south there are a number of apartment complexes which we would assume are all having similar issues with on-street parking. Typically in an apartment area you have a high demand for on-street parking and the one thing we wouldn't want to see is this type of request start to spread throughout the area. One space in this location is not going to have a detrimental effect on the available on-street parking in the area, however, 4 or 5 of them over time may, and that is a concern for us, along with maintenance of those areas of green curb. Chairman Beil — I don't know how a fire truck would do when they get to the end of McCoy Rd. When I drove by there were cars parked in those garage or alleyways back there, and you can barely get through. I had to make a 2-3 point turn around to get out. My concern is taking away or signing it, people won't � Tape#CTG29.o3 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. J Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. GL �� / �May'o9[N:/Traffic/CTC/zoo9 Minutes] �'�Printed On Recycled Paper �inutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—May i3,2009 Pg• 5 understand all the hours and you're just going to be pushing more vehicles out onto Almond, particularly in the evening. We've had similar requests for other apartment complexes in north Orange,just up past the Orange Mall, and I believe we previously denied the same exact request for short-term parking in front of rental offices. Where does the city right-of-way stop? Dave Allenbach Transportation Analyst — This black line represents the city right-of-way, however, the way the garages are set up there is about io-i5 ft. between the city right-of-way and the garage, basically a little driveway. If you have a compact or medium sized car you can probably park between the garage door and the city right-of-way, which is actually demarked by a concrete ribbon that runs the length of the alley on both sides. The alley itself is city right-of-way so you could park between that concrete ribbon and the garage door, with the right size car, and not be in public right-of-way. There are a few people in that area that have large trucks, when they park there they hang out into the alleyway, which is only 2o ft. wide. Commissioner Lebeau — The proponent had mentioned that other apartment rental offices have green curbs, is that correct? Dave Allenbach Trans�ortation Anal ��st — That may very well be. We process these requests one at a time, and we look at them related to their specific areas. I'm sure we do, we get this request not just for apartment complexes but also for other business who are having an on-going problem with turn-over parking. In this case if the demand for on-street parking were high during normal business hours our recommendation most likely would have been different. If there was NO PARKING on the street between the hours of 9 AM — 5 PM a person could not reasonably park close enough to the rental office that would be a different story. But during business hours the street is fairly empty it's generally no more than 50-60% full. The street is not that long and it's a reasonable walk from wherever you park on the street to the rental office. It's only in the evening hours that the parking demand goes up to i00% Chairman Beil — Cookie, do you have a high turnover rate of renters? Cookie Earl — My problem is .....(spoke from the audience and her comments were illegible). Commissioner Lebeau —About one-third? Commissioner Dick — I would think it might not be a bad idea if the cost components should be included. Maybe that's something that's too awkward or too cumbersome but it might help us make these decisions. The other thing, to return to the City Attorney, is the notion that we're doing something for private good with public curb. I thought the public was just a bunch of private folks and I � Tape#C'I'G29.o3 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available far your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. G� ��� �May'o9[N:/Traffic/C'I'C/2oo9 Minutes] ��Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—May i3,2009 Pg. 6 understand your perspective, but I think fees are good things versus t�es. If we can offer this city service, fee based, if it were a safety decision then it would not be something we should consider. But if its non-safety based that in order to be a pro-business community service type Commission we should embrace it and allow them to pay the fee. A true fee, something they could opt out if they don't want to pay it. If you don't want the green curb don't pay the fee. That is a real fee and not a t�. Chairman Beil — We could continue this and request that to be researched and bring back a good researched answer on that. Also, to take a look at how many other of these do we have, particularly in front of dwelling units. Commissioner Dick — I would also prefer to make sure we know what we're talking about when we vote. Perhaps your counsel is best. I'd like to move this to ne�month's agenda. Chairman Beil — So we can get some additional information and let the legal side really research that issue. It is a controversial issue as far as municipalities and State law. Wa�ne Winthers, Asst. City Attorney — I'll be happy to do that and pass on your concerns, if that ever was to come to fruition it would be something that would have to go to City Council for approval. I think it would be a slippery slope if we were going to make determinations based upon ability to pay because we might end up with one big green curb throughout the entire city, by whoever wants to come in and pay for one. Commissioner Dick— I don't intend to suggest that it would be up for sale. Wayne Winthers Asst. Citv Attorney — I'll certainly do the work for you and get a response. Chairman Beil — The other piece of that is trying to get some assemblage of how many of these green curbs, or whatever color they are, particularly in front of apartment complex dwelling units that are rentals that have been approved and are in place to date. I agree it would probably be looked at case-by-case because I think if I remember the one that was brought before us a few years ago behind the Orange Mall, they had some on-site parking stalls and it was just as easy for them to go and sign a couple of those themselves and paint them for their own time limit because it was their own private parking stalls for the complex. If I recall correctly that's why we denied that request because they had the ability in . their own site so we said we would leave the public roadway alone so anybody can park there. The motion will be to continue this to ne� month, with some additional follow-up information. � Tape#CTG29.o3 of this City Traific Commission meeting is available for your review. J Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. G !�y G / �3 May'o9[N:/Traffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes] �''�Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—May i3,2009 Pg• 7 ACTION: Continued to the June �o, 2009 meeting. MOTION: J. Beil SECOND: L. Dick AYES: Unanimous NOES: None ABSTAIN: None 2. Request for the installation of red curb markings for the driveway serving 22�E. Meats Ave. Sandra Rowley E. Meats Ave. Orange CA 92865 The oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion. Ja_vson RowleX E. Meats Ave. — I think the safety issue is more important than the parking issue. The other side of the street is rarely full so there is usually more parking available there. Every day the car is there until5 PM and i feel its safer for our customers and employees; and for people coming over the hump from the railroad tracks. Chairman Beil — I was going to ask about the grade differential of the driveway area versus the railroad tracks. To me when I was driving the area, there is some, it's not drastic but there is some grade there. Dave Allenbach Transportation Anal ��st — Secause of its proximity to Orange- Olive Rd. there is a grade separation. The grade is short and somewhat steep right on the east side of the tracks. If you're coming out of the driveway a lot of times, especially if you're driving in a regular vehicle, they just kind of pop up and then the fact that you have vehicles parked in this 86 ft. between the NO STOPPING and the driveway, it creates quite a sight distance obstruction as you can see from the photo that I took this morning, which was from a drivers perspective,your sight distance is really limited to 3o ft. Chairman Beil —I'm very familiar with the plans for the Quiet Zone and what components will be installed in these areas when the Quiet Zones come along. Does that include a raised median area at this location? Do you know? Amir Farahani Citv Traffic Engineer — Yes there is going to be a raised median about loo ft. from the tracks from the gate towards the west. � Tape#CTG29.o3 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,dvance notice is appreciated. GG- F`�'=� �May'o9[N:/Traffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes] `�"Y`�Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—May 13,2009 Pg• 8 Steve Patz, E. Meats Ave. —We're the neighbor next door. Our biggest problem is parking. Currently we have lo� employees due to the recession; we're normally in the 200 — 25o range. About 5:30-6:0o AM we have a substantial amount of people coming in to the job, not only ourselves but our neighbor the scaffolding company get a lot of people coming in and we never have enough parking. Sometimes we're lucky enough they allow us to park in their spots without complaining about it too much. I also took pictures this morning and this afternoon, there's some parking across the street, there's some parking in front our space, and we fill up our whole parking lot. The scaffolding company next door uses their parking for storing materials so they have no employee parking except 4 spaces out front; their employees park on the street, and they are normally there at 4:3o AM and they take up most of the spaces. When our guys get there at 5:3o AM we just don't have enough parking, and the loss of�parking spaces would be detrimental because we can't park on Orange-Olive Rd. there's minimal parking on Glassell St. and the red markings across the street on Meats already took up some of the parking spaces we would use. You mentioned 45 ft. in both directions,the agenda mentions 8o ft. Dave Allenbach Transportation Anal ��st — That's based on what we were planning to recommend. The proponent asked for some red curb. When we get a request, even though this is a driveway, to provide adequate sight distance we use a formula that is prescribed in our intersection sight distance ordinance. You start with a minimum of 3o ft. and then you add i ft. for every mile per hour that the street is posted over 25 MPH speed limit. Here that gets us to 45 ft. on either side of the driveway. What I was referring to in the Agenda is the end of the NO STOPPING zone 86 ft. easterly of the subject driveway, and we are proposing to continue that NO STOPPING. If you elect to paint the red curb we would be left with one parking stall from the end of the red curb easterly of the subjecf driveway and the end of the NO STOPPING zone. Even though the sketch it shows, again on the west side of the driveway, this red curb falls short of the fire hydrant, however, you can't park within 15 ft. of it, so in this case it is also extended 15 ft. past there, which is what we would propose with the posting the end of the NO STOPPING zone in this area. Steve Patz, E. Meats Ave. — In conclusion I think taking 6 parking stalls would be very detrimental to our business. We have a lot of our employees park off-site and the additional 6 spaces our hurt us, we not only have our employees but it's our suppliers and vendors. Commissioner Dick— How many employees to you have? Steve Patz, E. Meats Ave. —We have io�now. � Tape#CTG29.o3 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. G Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,�advance notice is appreciated. G �May'o9[N:/Traffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes] ��Printed On Recycled Paper � Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—May i3,2009 Pg• 9 Commissioner Dick — When it becomes the transition to the Quiet Zone this parking will go away regardless of our actions today? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — I believe we can put in the work we need to do within the existing NO STOPPING zone. We do not need additional parking removal for that, however, I believe the raised median goes pretty close to the edge of the existing NO STOPPING. In addition to providing the sight distance which is actually for westbound motorists on Meats Ave., it provides a smoother transition to move from the curbside lanes out toward the center where we do have parking westerly of this area. Commissioner Dick — It says that in the past 3 years there has been one accident. Dave Allenbach, Trans�ortation Anal ��st — It did not occur adjacent to the subject driveway, it was closer to Glassell St. but it did involve a motor vehicle hitting a parked vehicle on the street. Commissioner Dick— Was alcohol involved? Dave Allenbach, Trans�ortation Anal ��st —According to the accident report, no. Chairman Beil — It says unsafe speed. Commissioner Dick — In my personal propensity to yield toward safety I'm not highly moved by one accident in three years with a parked car. I am certainly pro-business in this challenging economic environment and if you can keep lo� people working in the air conditioning business I would be loath to remove parking from the street. Unless someone can dissuade me I would move to decline the request. Dave Allenbach, Trans�ortation Analvst — You can elect to approve all or part of this request. One thing that is critical is the sight distance on the east side of the subject driveway. This is where the traffic is actually closest to that curb, and your line of sight is more acute. If anything, perhaps at least parking removal on the east side of that driveway, that would spare 2 parking spaces on the west side between the driveway and the fire hydrant. Commissioner Dick—You ought to think vanpool. Chairman Beil —What length would be the very minimum on the east side? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analvst — At least 45 ft. as shown on the sketch, preferably up to the existing NO STOPPING sign. � Tape#CTG29.o3 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. J Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. G<' �^' �'�Printed On Rec / �May'o9[N:/Traffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes] ycled Paper �inutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—May i3,2009 Pg. io Commissioner Lebeau — If 45 ft. would be approximately 2 spaces lost as opposed to the 6 that would be under staff s recommendation? Chairman Beil —The motion will be to deny the staff recommendation first? Commissioner Dick— To accept recommendation #2. Wayne Winthers, Asst. City Attorney — I don't think you need to deny it, on consideration items you only need to make the motion however you want it to be approved. Technically I think there was a motion by Commissioner Dick, I never heard a second to, so I don't know if it will die without a second or if Commissioner Dick is amending his motion that he has previously voiced to approve the installation of 45 ft. of red curb on the east of the driveway. That's all you need for the motion. That's what I thought I heard, will that be the amended motion? Commissioner Dick— That is my motion. ACTION: Approve the installation of 45 ft. of red curb on the east of the driveway. MOTION: L. Dick SECOND: M. Lebeau Chairman Beil — 1 think it's a good middle ground. With the amount of parking that is required by some of the businesses there and looking at the available parking it's just not there. I think putting something on the east side gives you some of that angle of vision looking to the east so you can see if someone at a high rate of speed is coming from the westbound direction. AYES: Unanimous NOES: None ABSTAIN: None ��������������� End of Consideration Items ���������������� � Tape#CTC-29.o3 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. J Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. G`� ��` / �May'o9[N:/Traffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes] ��Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting—City Traffic Commission—May i3,2009 Pg. ii I V. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS None this month. VI. ADJOURNMENT After discussion of today's Agenda the City Traffic Commission meeting was concluded, and as there were no further requests for action under Oral Presentations, the Chairman adjourned this session of the City Traffic Commission. The ne�meeting of the City Traffic Commission is scheduled: 5�3o P.M. Wednesday - June io, 2009 Respectfully submitted, CITY OF ORANGE Phyllis Then,Recording Secretary Traffic Engineering Division pthen cr cityoforange.or� CITY OF ORANGE PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT . 300 E.CHAPMAN AVENUE o�rrGE cA 92866 Px: (7i4)744-5536 F�: (714)744-5573 � Tape#CTC-29.o3 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. J Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. G <� G ��Printed On Rec / �May'o9[N:/Traffic/CTC/zoo9 Minutes] ycled Paper