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Home My WebLink About06-10-2009 - Minutes TC CITY OF ORANGE CITY TRAFFIC COMMISSION Minutes of a Regular Meeting: June io, 2ooA I. OPENING A. Flag Pledge B. Roll Call Present — Commissioners: J. Beil, L. Dick, M. Lebeau Absent— Commissioners: W. King, N. Lall Present —Staff: A. Farahani, D.Allenbach, W. Winthers, Sgt. D.Adams, P. Then C. Approval of Minutes • May i3, 2009 ACTION: Approved as published by the Recording Secretary. MOTION: J. Beil SECOND: L. Dick AYES: Unanimous ABSTAIN: None II. ORAI.PRESENTATIONS None this meeting. III. CONSENT CALENDAR None this meeting. � �-ity of Tape#CTC-29.o4 of this City Traftic Commission meeting is available for your re��iew. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. �� -' Printed On Rec PubliC Wo�ks Department �June'o9[N:/Traffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes] ycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meet�ng-City Traffic Commission-June i�, 2009 Pg. 2 N. CONSIDERATION ITEMS i. Request for the installation of time limit parking (green curb) in front of the rental office at 222 S. McCoy Rd. (Continued from the May 13, 2009 CTC Meeting.) Cookie Earl. S. McCoy Rd. Orange CA 92866 The oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion, proponent did not speak and there were no others to speak on this issue. Chairman Seil — At our last meeting we requested information on how many other apartment complexes in the city have these types of installations. Dave Allenbach, Trans�ortation Anal ��st — We really don't have that specific data, we have an overall footage in our GIS system. I would say we have more green curb adjacent to businesses than apartment complexes. There was some green curb at some apartments on N. Lincoln St., and there is some on Canal St. adjacent to some apartments. In those cases we had an ongoing parking demand when it was more beneficial to the apartment complex to have some turn-over parking during the day. In this case we have quite a bit of empty space on the street during the day, so when prospective tenants would come to look at the apartments there is ample parking, for them to park within a reasonable distance. In most cases, however, our requests come from businesses, particularly in the Old Towne area, where there really isn't a lot of available off-street parking. In those cases businesses are looking for some turn-over parking so their customers have a reasonable chance to park close to their businesses. Chairman Beil — Could you go back a couple of pictures; I'm curious why the curb is so white. Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Prior to receiving this request it's our understanding that the owners of the apartment directed the maintenance staff to actually paint the curb green, which is illegal. They were informed this was an illegal practice and the City did go out and paint over it with grey paint. Commissioner Dick — We discussed this last month. I'm going to move the staff recommendation. Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Commission for further discussion and a motion. <^+ L'ity of Tape#CTG29.o4 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. E}:�hiic vvor�cs oeUarcment ��-'�printed On Rec cled Pa er �June'o9[N:/Traffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes] y p Minutes of a Regular Meet�ng—City Tr�c Commission—June iv, 2oog I'g• 3 ACTION: Denied the request. MOTION: L. Dick SECOND: J. Beil Chairman Beil — It is a real tough parking area. We have a lot of apartment and rental type dwelling units all over the city and I really don't feel we should be setting a precedent on providing green curb parking, particularly as these areas are so highly parked at night and on weekends. During the day there is a lot of available parking, if somebody is going to be coming in the evening or on weekends to look at the units they need to see the real parking conditions. When they rent the unit they many not necessarily be parking there anymore. In addition that parking won't be reserved just for the sole use of a prospective renter, anybody can park there when it's painted or signed. AYES: Unanimous NOES: None • ASSTAIN: None 2. Request for the installation of red curb markings on the east side of Glassell St. at Bristol Ln. Harry Hamric MeriCal, Inc. E. Bristol Ln. Orange CA 92865 The oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. There was no one to speak on this item. Chairman Beil asked the Commission for further comments and a moiion. ACTION: Approved the installation of go ft. of red curb on the north side of the intersection, and 5o ft. on the south side. MOTION: L. Dick SECOND: M. Lebeau AYES: Unanimous NOES: None ABSTAIN: None t"� �=�ty'+'� Tape#CTG29.o4 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. —_ ._ �,, Pubiic vvors�s�eparvr,ent �'�Printed On Rec cled Pa er �June'o9(N:/Traffic/CTC/2oog Minutes] Y P Minutes of a Regular Meeting-City Traffic Commission-June 10,2009 Pg• 4 3. Request for the installation of an edge line, offset from the west curb face by 8 ft. on Villareal Dr. north of Chapel Hill Dr., for sight distance purposes. Craig Mazzara Chapel Hill Rd. Orange, CA 9286� The oral presentation is based on the written staff report; please refer to your copy. Chairman Beil opened the public hearing for the following discussion. Commissioner Lebeau — Can you go back 3 photos to the previous driver's perspective? So from this view you cannot see all the way up to Marywood? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Anal ��st — That is correct. This photo was actually taken if you were stopped at the existing STOP bar. Most people that we witnessed exiting the intersection do stop at the STOP bar, but then they move out and their line of sight is basically about the center of the cross-gutter. It does increase but you still cannot see all the way to Marywood. Commissioner Lebeau — If we were to move up to where the proponent has suggested moving up the STOP bar 8 ft., from there can you almost see all the way up to Echo Hill? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Anal T�st — From the intersection you see actually Marywood Dr. which is on the west side of the street. But you cannot see the traffic that is coming down hill, your line of sight is still too acute, you're looking into that curve. Commissioner Lebeau — It does look like there's some improvement though doesn't it? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Anal ��st—That is correct. Chairman Beil —I have a lot of experience with the state highways use of delineators. Could you express the city's experience with delineators and their maintenance? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — These are made of plastic, they look nice when they are first installed,but after a while they get hit, they get bent, they start to look unsightly. If we put in the proposed edge line and move the STOP bar out, any motorist that is waiting here is exposed if somebody cuts across this paint. The STOP bar is behind the cross-gutter so the motorist stops accordingly, granted the sight distance is limited but the City has not directed them to move out into the street. That's something they do, but they do move out and wait for the cross traffic to clear. If you put in the edge line we would want some � �;ity of Tape#CTG29.o4 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. Pueiic�,vorks�apartn,ent ��p�nted On Rec cled Pa er �June'o9[N:/'IYaffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes] y p IMinutes of a Regular Meetmg- City Tr�c Commission-June ao,2009 Pg• 5 delineators installed to keep people from crossing over the paint, but again delineators get hit and it is an ongoing maintenance problem for us wherever we have them installed. Chairman Beil — How about the people coming down the hill and turning right? Did you witness any coming into Chapel Hill? I didn't see any while I was out there. I would assume they tend to get over to the right and then make their right turn while thru traffic would stay closer to the centerline. How would this scheme affect the right turn? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Analyst — Probably because we would put a radius on there. I don't know if it would have a major effect on people turning right into the street, most of the traffic we witnessed makes a left turn in and we're talking about very minimal traffic with 13 homes, you figure you probably have an average amount of traffic of 130 — i4o trips a day on that street. Craig Mazzara, Cha�el Hill Rd. — As you can see we have a severe visibility issue. I want to be able to make a left turn out of my street without getting hit. At 7:50 to 8:i5 am when everybody is dropping their kids off at either Orange Lutheran or coming back from Nohl Canyon or going to Cerro Villa, there are many trips a day. I'm not worried about the neighbor's visitors; I'm worried about my neighbors who are zipping up and down the street. I was out there this morning clocking traffic and most of the people are going about 25 MPH, there are a few pushing 35 MPH going downhill. The uphill speed is a little faster at 4o MPH. The STOP bar is currently located about 3-4 ft. back from the edge of asphalt; I'm looking for you to move it up 8 ft. past the flow line. I'm looking to be even farther out into the street so I can see up over the apex of the curve. Chairman Beil — You're in favor of pushing that STOP bar to the outside edge of the cross-gutter? Craig Mazzara, Cha�el Hill Rd. — I need it 3 ft. beyond the cross-gutter. This would still be within the edge line. There's a manhole that is from the flow line 10-12 ft., the front end of my car needs to be directly on that manhole for me to see up the street, meaning I'm just able to see past the retaining wall of the first lot. The vegetation is not really an obstruction because the walls along the property line lines up with up with it, so my line of sight is still obscured until I get beyond it. In today's world we would never do a 4 ft. right-of-way we would always have an 8 ft. right-of-way and a radius that 30o ft. wouldn't be a problem. But since it is only a 4 ft. right of way you come up with a situation like this. Now that I'm working from home I'm dropping my kids off and somebody swerves around me 2-3 days a week and there are i8o school days in a year, that's a lot of time when you might get hit. I've got signatures from many of the homeowner's on my street and their visitors, and we're looking for an inexpensive solution to this problem. c+ Gity of Tape#CTC-29.o4 of this City Traftic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. ��biic�vor�s oepartment � / � � ��''printed On Recycled Paper �June'o9[N: raffic CTC 2009 Minutes IMinutes of a Regular Meeting— City Traffic Commassion—June aa, 2009 Pg. 6 Hugh DeVaney, Chapel Hill Rd. — Those are my shrubs. Dave worked with my wife earlier today and they had a discussion about those shrubs and now we understand what his recommendation is and we'll take that. Craig just mentioned that there is a wall directly behind those shrubs and not very far in that continues to obscure the vision. I ask the City to work with us to come up with a solution because over the years the people on this street have chosen to turn right and have forbidden their children to turn left for many years. That's how we have dealt with the situation until Craig had to drop his kids off at school. Kathy Paukstis, Cha�el Hill Dr. — Those of us who live there turn right and won't make a left turn because we know it's dangerous. We stop at the white line and then we move out into the street so we can see, and then we watch if there is a car that may swerve into the other lane because it sees us, and we're out there and they have to move away from us, because going downhill they tend to pick up speed. I don't think the arguments for not getting anything done such as the lack of accident history and the fact that there are so few homes on the street is valid, I am opposed to that kind of thinking. I think it's a good option. In my opinion the bushes are not that much of an issue; you're going to save a couple of inches. There is a brick retaining wall that is still going to be there even if the bushes were to be completely gone. If you feel this is not an option I would urge you to consider something else, maybe mirrors, or BLIND CURVE sign, there has to be something that can be done to correct this situation. Norma Soleno�Cha�el Hill Rd. — I have been caught myself pushing forward in order to see, and have been stuck while cars are coming down the hill, and it's a pretty scary situation. We're all very fortunate not to have had any accidents, I think the City included, because it was built this way and it is a dangerous curve. Trimming the bushes will help and we're committed to getting that done pretty quickly. I'd like to know what the process is on getting your feedback and the timeline for implementation of anything that may be decided upon. Chairman Beil closed the public hearing and returned the item to the Comrnission for further discussion and a motion. Commissioner Lebeau — Would installing the edge line also mandate moving out the STOP sign, or is that mainly to answer the resident's concerns? Dave Allenbach, Transuortation Analvst — No, it would not necessarily mandate pushing the STOP bar out. It would give them some protection so as they stop and then move forward to the intersection to get better sight up the street. Commissioner Lebeau — So what you were describing earlier moving it further and leaving them exposed if someone were to drive over the edge line would be a concern to me. c'-'+ Ciry af Tape#CTC-29.o4 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is availabie for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. --- �;; Pub�ic works aeparr;,;enl �'`�pTjnted On Rec �June'o9[N:/'IYaffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes] ycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting-City Traffic Commission-June io,2009 Pg. � Chairman Beil — People are going to drive over the edge line and I think the purpose of the edge line is really to do everything we can to keep those cars to their normal 3 ft. off the centerline, and do everything to enhance sight distance by keeping them toward the centerline. I am not in favor, even if there is a new edge line painted, of moving that STOP bar. But the edge line can help, it's almost psychological to direct people to stay closer to the centerline and help improve sight distance where they can. I am not in favor of plastic delineators. I know some kids in 4-wheel drives who would just love to drive through there every night and drive over them, and I mean at 2:0o a.m. and if you've seen other installations of these around the city they turn black real quick, and they look really ugly and eventually they come loose and the city has to go out there and continuously install new ones. The scenario reminds me of another very similar location, going northbound Cambridge just past Katella, there is a side street that comes in on a curve (Carleton Ave.) and years ago the same complaint must have come in and there was an edge line with the oversized glass bots dots glued down. People were hitting those continuously; of course they have higher traffic volumes. There are situations that are very similar where in the past the edge line has been used to push out. You can put in regular bots dots; you can put them down on the edge line which may be even more problematic for the neighborhood, because every time someone creeps over there you get that thumping sound of the tires. A typical edge line detail, if it's a straight road, is essentially a white paint line, I don't even think it has any reflectors. Note: The bots dots at the intersection of Carnbridge St. and Carleton AUe. have recently been removed and replaced with plastic delineators. Dave Allenbach, Trans�ortation Analyst — That's correct, in this case we would want some reflectors, even if they are just the raised pavement markers, so motorists coming down the hill can see them at night. Chairman Seil — But they're not as thick as normal bots dots would be, they're reflectorized with some spacing. Is that what you're talking about? Dave Allenbach, Transportation Ana�st — I believe the typical spacing is about 24 ft., we can always shorten that a little bit, but that's typical for a 25 MPH street. Amir Farahani, Citv Traffic En i� neer — Normally they are based on design speed and this speed is 25 MPH, you have the option of moving them closer or further apart. The retaining wall is the major obstruction but also the bushes are huge. When we're talking about trimming it, actually removing it would be a better solution, and on the top of the block wall the bushes are sticking out. C" �-1LY�7¢ Tape#CTG29.o4 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. f:::�' Public Works Department a �June'o9[N:/Traffic/CTC/2ooq Minutes] �''+'�Printed On Recycled Paper 11�Iinutes of a Regular Meeting- City T�affic Commission-June iu, 2009 Pg. 8 Chairman Beil — You need to realize on sight distance issues even trimming a bush back 1 ft. can create �o ft. of sight distance up the street. Commissioner Dick — Since they have agreed to trim the bush my suggestion is that we don't advance the STOP bar that we don't put in the delineators, but that we do paint the edge line and install the raised pavement markers. Chairman Beil — Along with the DeVaney's getting out and doing some weekend work. When I drove by I forgot to stop and check because it was getting dark out, but your plants are actually growing over the sidewalk and it's a very minimal width sidewalk too. Dave Allenbach Transportation Analyst — It's probably a 4 ft. wide sidewalk. The plants are probably encroaching over the sidewalk maybe 6 inches or so, they aren't actually that far. On the aerial photo the block wall is actually back away from the intersection so by trimming these plants at the corners, you can see in the aerial that will result in some additional sight distance. So if you have the edge line as you suggest as well as these plants being trimmed in this area, the motorist should be able to see at least midway. Commissioner Lebeau — Would the motion include reflectorized paint for the edge line? Chairman Beil — That's standard, pavement striping is installed with the glass beads. ACTION: Install edge line to edge line standards without the additional delineation, and movement of the STOP bar, and to trim the shrubs. Wayne Winthers Asst. City Attorney — It might be simplest to make the motion, install an edge line with raised pavement markers. ACTION: Install an edge line with raised pavement markers. MOTION: L. Dick SECOND: M. Lebeau AYES: Unanimous NOES: None ABSTAIN: None �-+ City>of Tape#CTC-29.o4 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your re�riew. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. Public Works DeparimE�nt, �,S'� �June'09[N:/Traffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes] �'�Prirned On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular 1�'Ieet�ng—City Traffic Commission—June Yu, 2009 �'g• 9 Chairman Beil — Can you describe the timeline? Dave Allenbach Transportation Analvst — There is a 15-day appeal period, so at the end of that period we will send a work order to our field crew. I'm not sure if we're going to do this in-house or if we will have it done by a contractor. The warning sign should be installed the first week of July, and I would say the edge line treatment should be done some time shortly after that. Amir Farahani City Traffic Engineer — What we saw on the power point was very conceptual so the actual edge line will be somewhat different. It might be shorter or it might not be anything on the south side because of the right turns they have to make. Chairman Beil — Conceptually I'm also assuming to help guide those people so they don't think it's an additional lane that the edge line will include the hash marks inside? Amir Farahani City Traffic Engineer — That is correct. �� End of Consideration Items �� V. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS None this month. Chairman Beil — I did request that Dave investigate the loo block of N. Orange St. Somebody painted green curb on Orange St. almost all the way to Maple Ave., all around there, and it's also signed for 3-hour parking. So the paint and the signs are in conflict and that needs to be investigated. �C—'' L�t S'�� Tape#CTG29.o4 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is availabie for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. Public'JJorl:s�)E t rrni �,� �June'09[N:/Traffic/CTC/2oog Minutes] �"r' Printed On Recycled Paper Minutes of a Regular Meeting-City Tr�c Commission-June io, 2ooq Pg. io l VI. ADJOURNMENT After discussion of today's Agenda the City Traffic Commission meeting was concluded, and as there were no further requests for action under Oral Presentations, the Chairman adjourned this session of the City Traffic Commission. The ne�t meeting of the City Traffic Commission is scheduled: 5:3o P•M. Wednesday - August 12, 2 0 0 9 Respectfully submitted, CITY OF ORANGE Phyllis Then, Recording Secretary Traffic Engineering Division pthen(a�cit�ofora�e.org CITY OF ORANGE PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT 300 E.CHAPMAN AVENUE o�vcE ca 92866 Px: (714)744-5536 F�: (714)744-5573 � City of Tape#CTC-2g.o4 of this City Traffic Commission meeting is available for your review. Please contact the Recording Secretary at(�i4)744-5536 in this regard,advance notice is appreciated. Pub•.ic Works DepartmeM �� June'o9[N:/Traffic/CTC/2oo9 Minutes] �"�Printed On Recycled Paper